Is the 1000 year kingdom literal?

redleghunter

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You must view what they said from a NT position. Who would have thought John the Baptists was Elijah? Or Jesus the Temple restored?
That's a good point, however the NT reveals the OT no? Therefore, if we find similar apocalyptic language in both the OT and NT this informs us of similar events to come.

As I mentioned yesterday....Take any of the Messianic prophecies that we as Christians today point to and say "Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled this" and let me know if anyone had it figured out before it actually happened. Given the treasure of information we have the Qumran community from the DSS, we do know a lot more about what they thought Messiah(s) would be. The Qumran community believed there would be three figures to fulfill the Messianic prophecies. A king, a priest and the Teacher of Righteousness. They matched just about all the Messianic prophecies with the aforementioned Messianic figures and come the closest to confirming the understanding of what some were looking for at the time of Christ's birth. FF Bruce, noted author and theologian, wrote a book on the DSS and the Qumran community. Highly recommended.

My point? Not one Jewish religious faction 'got' the First Advent of Christ totally correct. Some came close and it was probably why so many initially followed Christ but when He did not preach overthrowing Rome, He lost many followers. Why? Because there are Messianic prophecies of predicting Messiah would be a conquering King (Second Advent). If those are to be literal fulfillments as were the First Advent fulfilled prophecies, why are we trying to bury them in symbolism, allegory and metaphor?

Jesus drew a thick line in bold colors on what He would do in the First Advent.

Luke 4: NASB
16And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,

18“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,


19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”


Where did the above come from?

Isaiah 61: NASB
1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;


2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,


3To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.


4Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins,
They will raise up the former devastations;
And they will repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.


5Strangers will stand and pasture your flocks,
And foreigners will be your farmers and your vinedressers.


6But you will be called the priests of the LORD;
You will be spoken of
as ministers of our God.
You will eat the wealth of nations,
And in their riches you will boast.


7Instead of your shame you will have a double portion,
And instead of humiliation they will shout for joy over their portion.
Therefore they will possess a double
portion in their land,
Everlasting joy will be theirs.


8For I, the LORD, love justice,
I hate robbery in the burnt offering;
And I will faithfully give them their recompense
And make an everlasting covenant with them.


9Then their offspring will be known among the nations,
And their descendants in the midst of the peoples.
All who see them will recognize them
Because they are the offspring
whom the LORD has blessed.

10I will rejoice greatly in the LORD,
My soul will exult in my God;
For He has clothed me with garments of salvation,
He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.


11For as the earth brings forth its sprouts,
And as a garden causes the things sown in it to spring up,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise
To spring up before all the nations.


Bolded and underlined happened during the First Advent. Literally fulfilled.

Keep reading Isaiah to the end (even chapter 60). You will see the promises of the Land promised and that they will be fulfilled. Jesus told the audience in Luke 4 the first 1.5 verses were fulfilled that day, and he literally fulfilled these prophecies during and after His ministry on Earth.
 
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redleghunter

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We cannot add or take away from the book without reaping severe judgement.
LOL, it says 1000 years. Only those who try to take away from the text saying "1000 years" are dealing with fire.
 
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Dave L

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LOL, it says 1000 years. Only those who try to take away from the text saying "1000 years" are dealing with fire.
Who is taking away? I'm saying the 1000 years are a symbol for the binding of Satan and not the kingdom which is eternal. You are saying the 1000 years are the kingdom.
 
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Mal'ak

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Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.



Are there two different brides here? Revelation 19 indicates the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. Revelation 21 indicates----prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

We then basically have this---the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So when is a bride usually adorned for a husband? Would it be during the marriage ceremony, or would it be after it, in this case, a thousand years after the marriage ceremony?

I can see the confusion, but there are two "marriages", as there are two resurrections. The first will be for the Saints when Jesus returns, those Christians that have follow the Word and done as they are suppose to do. These Christians will be set as judges and teachers during the thousand years, living in the Temple with Jesus during the thousand years and already given eternal life as the Word says the second death can not touch them.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Then after the thousand years, all those the saints and Jesus taught who did not follow satan on his release will be brought before the Father for the white throne. They will then be judged by their works, and those that are found in the book of life will have eternal life...this is the second resurrection/marriage. The "dead" in scripture is saying, the people who do not have eternal life yet, so they are walking dead men as at that point they are not granted eternal life by Jesus so are heading for the Lake of Fire unless God judges them found in the book of life then they will be "raised from the dead" in the spiritual sense in that they will not be killed in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 
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redleghunter

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My questions are: Why does it matter whether or not the 1000 years is literal or not? What difference does it make to us here and now? What reasons are there to think it is NOT literal? I have yet to hear a good argument that necessitates making it metaphorical. Mostly, it is people who do not really believe in the divine inspiration and accuracy of the scriptures who want to make this period of time blurry and indistinct. But God gives it a clear beginning and ending in Revelation 20.
Excellent questions. I see this with theistic evolution as well.
You are turning the 1000 years into something it is not.
Oh my how did you conclude that? 1000 years is just that. God's Kingdom is Eternal with no end. Please I recommend diving into the OT prophets as there are a host of promises God intends on fulfilling yet future. We have to remember, it may not make a lot of sense to us because to us what is more important than the Gospel. However, if you read that entire chapter of Ephesians 1, you will conclude it ain't about us but for His Glory.
 
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Dave L

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That's a good point, however the NT reveals the OT no? Therefore, if we find similar apocalyptic language in both the OT and NT this informs us of similar events to come.

As I mentioned yesterday....Take any of the Messianic prophecies that we as Christians today point to and say "Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled this" and let me know if anyone had it figured out before it actually happened. Given the treasure of information we have the Qumran community from the DSS, we do know a lot more about what they thought Messiah(s) would be. The Qumran community believed there would be three figures to fulfill the Messianic prophecies. A king, a priest and the Teacher of Righteousness. They matched just about all the Messianic prophecies with the aforementioned Messianic figures and come the closest to confirming the understanding of what some were looking for at the time of Christ's birth. FF Bruce, noted author and theologian, wrote a book on the DSS and the Qumran community. Highly recommended.

My point? Not one Jewish religious faction 'got' the First Advent of Christ totally correct. Some came close and it was probably why so many initially followed Christ but when He did not preach overthrowing Rome, He lost many followers. Why? Because there are Messianic prophecies of predicting Messiah would be a conquering King (Second Advent). If those are to be literal fulfillments as were the First Advent fulfilled prophecies, why are we trying to bury them in symbolism, allegory and metaphor?

Jesus drew a thick line in bold colors on what He would do in the First Advent.

Luke 4: NASB
16And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,

18“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,


19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”


Where did the above come from?

Isaiah 61: NASB
1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;


2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,


3To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.


4Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins,
They will raise up the former devastations;
And they will repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.


5Strangers will stand and pasture your flocks,
And foreigners will be your farmers and your vinedressers.


6But you will be called the priests of the LORD;
You will be spoken of
as ministers of our God.
You will eat the wealth of nations,
And in their riches you will boast.


7Instead of your shame you will have a double portion,
And instead of humiliation they will shout for joy over their portion.
Therefore they will possess a double
portion in their land,
Everlasting joy will be theirs.


8For I, the LORD, love justice,
I hate robbery in the burnt offering;
And I will faithfully give them their recompense
And make an everlasting covenant with them.


9Then their offspring will be known among the nations,
And their descendants in the midst of the peoples.
All who see them will recognize them
Because they are the offspring
whom the LORD has blessed.

10I will rejoice greatly in the LORD,
My soul will exult in my God;
For He has clothed me with garments of salvation,
He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.


11For as the earth brings forth its sprouts,
And as a garden causes the things sown in it to spring up,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise
To spring up before all the nations.


Bolded and underlined happened during the First Advent. Literally fulfilled.

Keep reading Isaiah to the end (even chapter 60). You will see the promises of the Land promised and that they will be fulfilled. Jesus told the audience in Luke 4 the first 1.5 verses were fulfilled that day, and he literally fulfilled these prophecies during and after His ministry on Earth.
Mostly, nobody knew what the prophecy meant until after God fulfilled it. Jesus is Israel in the OT but you didn't know that until Matthew spelled it out.
 
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Dave L

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Excellent questions. I see this with theistic evolution as well.

Oh my how did you conclude that? 1000 years is just that. God's Kingdom is Eternal with no end. Please I recommend diving into the OT prophets as there are a host of promises God intends on fulfilling yet future. We have to remember, it may not make a lot of sense to us because to us what is more important than the Gospel. However, if you read that entire chapter of Ephesians 1, you will conclude it ain't about us but for His Glory.
John uses the 1000 years to represent Satan's binding. Not to represent the kingdom.
 
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DavidPT

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Do you believe that the 42 Months reign of the Beast mentioned in Revelation 13:5-9
Revelation 13:5-9
5 and there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and there was given to him authority to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth for blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, [even] them that dwell in the heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.



...when people who will refuse to take the mark and who will refuse to worship the Beast and his image will be killed [Revelation 13:13-16] ...WILL happen BEFORE the Coming of Jesus ?

Revelation 13:13-16
13 And he doeth great signs, that he should even make fire to come down out of heaven upon the earth in the sight of men.

14 And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by reason of the signs which it was given him to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast who hath the stroke of the sword and lived.

15 And it was given [unto him] to give breath to it, [even] to the image to the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead; 17 and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, [even] the name of the beast or the number of his name.


And to add to that, let's not forget where John places those 42 months in Revelation 20:4. He places the 42 month reign of the beast already in the past when they live again and reign with Christ a thousand years. No reasonable person should argue that the 42 month reign of the beast takes place while satan is in the pit. During the thousand years satan is in the pit, thus the 42 month reign of the beast can't occur during that time.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

and I saw the souls of them----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

Obviously this is meaning what happened to them during the 42 month reign of the beast, that they were literally killed for refusing to worship the beast during it's 42 month reign. The only logical place the 42 month reign of the beast can fit is before the time of the first resurrection. IOW before the time of the thousand years. Why? Because the 42 month reign of the beast has to occur when satan is not bound. Revelation 20:4 UNDENIABLY proves the 42 month reign of the beast can't occur during satan's little season if it already occurred before that time. That leaves only one place remaining for the 42 month reign of the beast to occur during. That being before the thousand years begins, because satan is not in the pit during that time. Amils flat out ignore this fact altogether. Because if they didn't, they couldn't remain Amil.
 
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redleghunter

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Mostly, nobody knew what the prophecy meant until after God fulfilled it. Jesus is Israel in the OT but you didn't know that until Matthew spelled it out.
Then by the law of non-contradiction Israel is Jesus? Please explain.
 
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DavidPT

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Then by the law of non-contradiction Israel is Jesus? Please explain.


If Jesus is Israel in the OT, I guess that means Jesus is not sinless after all then since Israel in the OT was well known for doing a lot of bad things throughout it's history.
 
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DavidPT

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The text says 1000 year reign. What's being 'reigned over?'


This is a good point. If one considers Revelation 2:26-27, the reigning with Christ for that thousand years tends to have rhyme and reason to it.
 
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Riberra

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Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.
Revelation 16:15-16 tell us that Jesus will COME As A Thief the Day when the armies will be all assembled for the Battle of Armageddon ...Revelation 19 give more details about the Battle of Armageddon.

Revelation 17 and Revelation 18 are just there to explain why God is so angry against Babylon the Great that he reserve a special wrath upon that Kingdom ...
Revelation 16:19
17 And the seventh poured out his bowl upon the air; and there came forth a great voice out of the temple, from the throne, saying, It is done: 18 and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since there were men upon the earth, so great an earthquake, so mighty.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
 
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Riberra

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John uses the 1000 years to represent Satan's binding. Not to represent the kingdom.
It is about Satan's binding for 1,000 Years at the Coming of Jesus[Revelation 20:1-3] and ALSO about the 1,000 Years Reign of Jesus on the Earth WITH THE Resurrected SAINTS MARTYRS [Revelation 20:4-6]
 
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Riberra

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We cannot add or take away from the book without reaping severe judgement.
It is valid also for the order of Chapters ...who cannot be rearranged to fit your doctrine .
The Binding of Satan for 1,000 Years will happen AT THE COMING OF JESUS Revelation 19.....Satan's binding Revelation 20....When Satan is bind [Revelation 20:1-3] ,the 1,000 years of the Kingdom of Jesus on the Earth with the Resurrected Saints Martyrs BEGIN [Revelation 20:4-6].
 
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Dave L

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It is valid also for the order of Chapters ...who cannot be rearranged to fit your doctrine .
The Binding of Satan for 1,000 Years will happen AT THE COMING OF JESUS Revelation 19.....Satan's binding Revelation 20....When Satan is bind [Revelation 20:1-3] ,the 1,000 years of the Kingdom of Jesus on the Earth with the Resurrected Saints Martyrs BEGIN [Revelation 20:4-6].
At Jesus' return the resurrection happens, followed by the rapture followed by the resurrection of the wicked followed by the judgment followed by the explosion of the universe and the creation of the new heavens and earth. Satan is bound now by the gospel.
 
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Dave L

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It is about Satan's binding for 1,000 Years at the Coming of Jesus[Revelation 20:1-3] and ALSO about the 1,000 Years Reign of Jesus on the Earth WITH THE Resurrected SAINTS MARTYRS [Revelation 20:4-6]
The 1000 years is the binding of Satan. Christ reigns forever in the new heavens and earth, not for 1000 years which in no way applies to John's use of the term.
 
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DavidPT

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Satan is bound now by the gospel.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Once this is fulfilled he would no longer be bound according to this verse. You want us to believe, assuming you are correct, that satan is more powerful than the gospel, since the gospel only manages to bind him a thousand years rather than bind him up until he is cast into the LOF? In Revelation 20 could you point out where it even mentions anything about the gospel?
 
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