Protestantismvsthebible

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The word is not in the Bible.
But;

1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]

I don't find this doctrine in the Bible either, 1 thes is referring to the second coming not the rapture!
 
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Serving Zion

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Genesis 3:1, Psalms 19:13. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is referring to the Christians who do not have spiritual life (they have been put to death by the letter of the law). St Paul says they have to be raised first and then we who are alive in Christ will be caught up with them.
 
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There are a number of references. See my article on The Rapture for the references and analysis.
Ok thanks I read it but I think it refers to the second coming not a rapture of the church, for the church the new covenant is eternal, Luke 1 His kingdom will have no end! The trump referred to in 1 thes is the last trump therefore a reference to the second coming of Christ in glory, why does Paul refer to those living in 1 thes as left behind?
 
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Ok thanks I read it but I think it refers to the second coming not a rapture of the church, for the church the new covenant is eternal, Luke 1 His kingdom will have no end! The trump referred to in 1 thes is the last trump therefore a reference to the second coming of Christ in glory, why does Paul refer to those living in 1 thes as left behind?
You would be interested to notice there is a period of time between Daniel 7:14 and Daniel 7:22, where it is implied that the kingdom is not possessed by the kedoshim.
 
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Ken Rank

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The word is not in the Bible.
But;

1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]
The word for caught up (harpazo) is the same word used when Phillip gets taken from the Eunuch and "transported" to the next town. When Messiah returns he is setting up his kingdom, not taking people to one place while others remain below getting their butts kicked. :) Any rapture has just as much a biblical precedent to be horizontal, in fact, even more so since the word is used that way in the only real and physical example we have of one.
 
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bcbsr

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Ok thanks I read it but I think it refers to the second coming not a rapture of the church, for the church the new covenant is eternal, Luke 1 His kingdom will have no end! The trump referred to in 1 thes is the last trump therefore a reference to the second coming of Christ in glory, why does Paul refer to those living in 1 thes as left behind?
Given that you responded 2 seconds after I posted, I take it you didn't actually read the article. You might want to read it more thoroughly if you're serious.

The letters of 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, whose major theme is living the Christian life with a view towards the return of Christ, clarify the timing of the Rapture. They teach

A. The Lord returns just before the rapture

These are the order of events according to 1Thessalonians 4:16,17

1. the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command,
with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
2. the dead in Christ will rise first.

3. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. (The Rapture)

That is,
1. The Lord comes down from heaven into the clouds
2. Dead believers rise from their graves and go into the clouds to meet Christ
3. A short time afterwards the believers who had not died join them in the clouds, not dying, but being transformed in the twinkling of an eye at the Last Trumpet (1Cor 15:51,52)
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ" Rev 11:15 And then he sends Wrath down from the clouds for 3 years, followed by His Millenial Reign on earth.

B. The reason Paul gives as to how believers know they haven't missed it, or been "left behind" as some put it today, is because certain events must occur before the Rapture:

2Thess 2:1-4
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him we ask you, brothers not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (the coming of the Lord and the Rapture) will not come until
1.
the rebellion occurs and
2. the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.Notice that "the day of the Lord" spoken of throughout 1st and 2nd Thessalonians is revealed here to incorporate both the coming of the Lord and the Rapture. ("Our being gathered to him") Notice the correlation of this "gathering" with Matthew 24 which I also mention below:Matt 24:29-31
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."But before "that day" occurs, Paul reveals that certain events must first occur. "The popular "Left Behind" Series is unBiblical in its portrayal of the order of these events. What if a false pre-trib prophet had proposed to the Thessalonians that the Lord had already come and the rapture occurred, but that they missed it - that they are "left behind"! This is the kind of false prophecy Paul was responding to. Notice also 2Timothy 2:16-18 "Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some." And even today there are some called "Preterists" who claim the resurrection has already taken place. Paul refers to such ideas merely as godless chatter.

The "rebellion" or "falling away" he refers to is also mentioned in Matthew 24:10,11 "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people."

By the way the "man of lawlessness" it refers to is alluded to in the book of Daniel saying,

"He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. (3.5 years)" Dan 7:25
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ (3.5 years) he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." Dan 9:27

The anti-Christ will reign for 7 years, the last 3.5 years of which he will persecute the saints starting with his rebellious act of setting himself in God's temple proclaiming himself to be God. After the 3.5 years of persecution, the Rapture occurs. (See also the Revelation Timing Charts)

C. Coming as a Thief in the night refers not to "in secrecy", but rather to "surprise".

Some have proposed that the Lord's coming it speaks of in 1Thess 4 is not the same as the Lord's coming spoken of as elsewhere, but rather it is a secret coming. That is the Jesus tiptoes into the world and takes his believers away secretly. The "secret coming" theory is based upon the fact that at times his coming is likened to a thief coming in the night. But notice the context when the Bible likens the Lord's coming as a thief in the night.

1Thess 5:2-4 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
So also Peter writes, "the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare."2Peter 3:10

It is not in secrecy, but in surprise, though the believers are not surprised but ready. But also his coming as a thief incorporates destruction and suffering upon the world. So also even when Jesus spoken of his coming as a thief he was not referring to it being in secret, but rather it being a surprise:

"But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." Luke 12:39,40

D. 1Thess 4:16 speaks of the trumpet call of God, as does 1Corinthians 15:51,52 both with reference to the Rapture event. But Corinthians specifies it as the LAST TRUMPET.

  • "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." 1Cor 15:51,52
The 7th trumpet, which is the last one, is spoken of in Revelation 11, where it says,

  • "The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." Rev 11:15 And goes on to say in vs 18 "The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints."
While the Rapture is a Pre-Wrath event in that it occurs before the 3 years of the bowls of wrath, it is not a Pre-Trib event, given what Revelation and Matthew 24 describe of events prior to the last trumpet sounding.

E. Some have attempted to defend the Pre-Trib Rapture theory with 2Thess 2:7, but that verse absolutely does not support such a theory.

"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work;
but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."I agree with the idea that it is most likely speaking of the Holy Spirit holding back the lawlessness in the world. We notice in Romans 1 for example it speaks of God "giving them over to their sinful desires" and "to a depraved mind" and so forth, implying that God was holding them back from such corruption. So also I can imagine He's doing the same concerning the restraint of lawlessness on a larger scale - world-wide.
The pretribers however will reason that at this point God takes away such restraint by taking the Holy Spirit completely out of the world altogether. And as the Spirit so the Church, meaning that the Rapture must occur at that time. But first of all does God need to take the Spirit completely out of the world to release His restraint? Certainly not. For even Romans 1 gives examples of God giving people over to their passions, and yet the Church is still here! It is not the Church which restrains the world. It's the Spirit. The time will come when the Spirit limits its influence to the Church, giving up on the rest of the world. That's what it's speaking of. But the Church is still on the earth at that time.

To prove this further notice the verse which follows, which says, "And then the lawless one will be revealed." 2Thess 2:8 The Lawless One is revealed after such restraint is lifted, not to mention the rebellion. But the verses prior to that (vs 1-4) indicate that the Rapture occurs some time after the lawless one is revealed, as I pointed out above, which must be some time after the restraint is lifted, indicating that the Church is still on earth.Thus Pre-Tribers are just reading their Rapture theory into 2Thess 2:7, rather than reading the verse in context. For the context teaches that the rebellion and the revealing of the lawless one occurs before the Rapture. (Don't let anyone deceive you in any way)

F. Matthew 24 also speaks of the "Coming of the Lord" and the Rapture, placing them after the tribulation period.

Matthew 24:(3) Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming ("parousia" in the Greek), and of the end of the age? ... (9-10) Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other. ... (15) Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (Dan 9:27) (whoever reads, let him understand) ... (21) For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. ...(29-31) Immediately after the tribulationof those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven (Rev 6:13) , and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with agreat sound of a trumpet, (1Thess 4:16) and they will gather together His elect (2Thess 2:1) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.(The Rapture).Furthermore, the Greek word "parousia" used here in speaking of the Lord's coming is also the same word "coming" used throughout Thessalonians in speaking of the Rapture. And notice the correlation with the trumpet of God spoken of in Thessalonians, which also precedes the Rapture.1Thess 4:15-17 "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."And furthermore this passage in Matthew is consistent with the timing of the rapture Paul speaks of in 2Thess 2:3, 4 "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."This event is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, of which Matthew also speaks. and the "rebellion" or "falling away" is spoken of in Matthew 24:10 Thus in both sections such events are consistently placed before the Rapture. The Rapture is also described more explicitly in that chapter saying things like, "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left." Matt 24:40 This is the gathering together his elect from the four winds.

(While some pre-tribers recognize Matt 24:40 as referring to the Rapture, other Pre-tribers however interpret this to mean that the ones taken are the one's subject to God's wrath. They based this on Matt 24:28 which says, "Wherever there is a carcass, there the eagles will gather." But eagles and vultures gather around bodies which are on the earth, not on those which are taken away. This verse is actually a reference to marriage supper of the lamb of Revelation 19:17,18 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." This occurs after the Rapture.
 
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Ken Rank

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I wrote this a number of years ago. For those on the fence who really want to lay out all the information before them and just let the truth be whatever it is... I suggest allowing this being part of that group of information.

Caught Away or Left Behind?

A number of years ago while still attending a Baptist Church in Frankfort, KY, I had a friend of mine come in gleefully ready to pull the backing off a new bumper sticker which read, “In case of rapture this vehicle will be unmanned.” At the time I had just begun my exploration into this doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture, and I had little to share with this friend at the time. The one thing I did have, which I pulled out and read, was the parable of the Wheat and Tares found in Matthew 13. It is shared with us as both a parable and as plain speak, meaning, there is little room for error in interpretation. The story goes that the wheat (children of the kingdom) are in the field (the world) and growing up along with them are the tares (children of the wicked one). At the time of the harvest (the end of this world or age), the man who sowed this seed into the world (the Messiah) will tell the reapers (the angels) to gather together “first the tares” and then the wheat. In this parable the children of God’s Kingdom are not taken first, the children of the wicked one are. The following verse should be noted:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest:

This is significant because Matthew 13:39 tells us plainly, “the harvest is the end of this world.” If the righteous are taken before the tribulation begins, leaving the sinners to wreak havoc on what is left of the world, how can both the Children of the Kingdom of God and the children of the Wicked One be growing together until the end of the world?

This is not the only time we see this in scripture. Yeshua (Jesus) likens the time of his return to the days of Noach and Lot. In the days of Noach, his family was given a place of safe haven during the time of wrath. Noach and his family were not removed from the earth however, and the ones taken were not those in the ark, it was the unrighteous, or the tares if you will, who stood outside the ark and were consumed by God’s wrath. Those that were “left” remained safe in the ark. Likewise, Lot and his family were moved away from the place of wrath. He too was not removed from the earth, rather brought to a place of safety. When the wrath came it was Lot who was “left behind” and it was the unrighteous, again, the tares... who were taken.

Another set of verses used to teach that the righteous are taken first is found in Luke:

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

However, the very next verse has the disciples asking the Lord where the ones taken are taken to, and Messiah’s reply is, “wherever the body is will be where the eagles are gathered together.” In other words, where you see the scavenger birds eating the bodies, that’s where they were taken.

Does this mean that there is no rapture at all? Well, not necessarily, there are some verses that would indicate a catching away, but are we really being taken to where so many teach we are taken? Billions of dollars have been made through books and movies centered on the idea that Christians are taken to heaven and everyone else will be left behind. But if Yeshua clearly states that the wheat and tares grow together until the end, then it is time to reevaluate our understanding, prayerfully of course! Scripture tells us that the meek inherit the earth, not heaven. Heaven wasn’t made for man, the earth was. Yeshua is returning to set up a Millennial Kingdom here on earth. After that time, the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and fills, for the most part, all the land promised to Abraham and his seed. In other words, with a Millennial reign on earth, the New Jerusalem on earth, the meek inheriting the earth, why do we think we go to heaven? We are forced to grab a hold of a story like Enoch and say, “this represents the church” because we have nothing else in the Tanach (OT) that ever points to an event of this magnitude. We forget that God has always used tribulation to draw His people closer to Himself, to refine us, to mold us.

The following verses are very much linked:

1 Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We are “changed” (made incorruptible, perfected) when the dead are raised, and the dead are raised at the “last trumpet” not before the first. One can then make an argument for a rapture that occurs at the end of the tribulation, not before. Yet it is at the end when Yeshua returns to reconcile all his people and restore all things, to sit on the Davidic throne. This is why “my personal view” runs along these lines...

When the Eunuch came up out of the water, Phillip was “caught away” to another city. This is of course the same word used for “caught up” in the 1 Thes. verse above, it is the word many call the "rapture." Yet Phillip was not removed from the earth, he was moved from one place to another. I believe we are not appointed to God’s wrath, and like Noach, at the appointed time, I believe we will be given a place of safety:

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be over-past. (21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

History will indeed repeat itself, not just as it was in Noach’s day (not that we end up in an ark mind you) but also when it comes to the exodus:

Isaiah 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. (16) And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

“As it was in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt,” is a reference to something that happened before and will happen again. The Egyptian Sea will again go dryshod, God’s people will again make that trek, and there will be a “wilderness experience” as there was before. (You might reference Revelation 12:6-17 here) Like Moses who couldn’t possibly understand the magnitude of what would happen when he held his rod over the sea and it parted, I too do not know how this will all ultimately unfold. There appears to be a second exodus, there appears to be a wilderness experience and those in the wilderness are those who “keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah.” (Rev. 12:17) Whatever it is, it is... but I am thinking that if we are "raptured" it will be when we are moved from where we are to a staging ground where the Isaiah 11 second exodus will take place.
 
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mkgal1

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Quoting N.T. Wright (for anyone that would like to read ):
The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre[1]. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal “rapture” in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been “left behind.” This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.

This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?

It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event[2]. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming” to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.

The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines[3], and I don’t deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won’t in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which “heaven” is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.

The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).

Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.

Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man”) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behindseries suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.

Paul’s misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul’s, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it? And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world? We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God’s world on the grounds that it’s all going to be destroyed soon? Wouldn’t this be overturned if we recaptured Paul’s wholistic vision of God’s whole creation? ~ http://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/farewell-to-the-rapture/
 
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