The first resurrection--Revelation 20:4 & Revelation 20:6

DavidPT · Jul 28, 2018

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Let's now look for some passages with resurrection context involving the righteous.

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let's start here for now. Neither can they die any more(Luke 20:36)---on such the second death hath no power(Revelation 20:6)

What is the 2nd death? Is it not death? When does Luke 20 indicate one can not die anymore? they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead. Isn't that when? Wouldn't that be when the 2nd death has no power over those who have part in the 1st resurrection?

Neither can they die any more(Luke 20:36)---they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life(John 5:29)---of the just(Acts 24:15)----the dead in Christ shall rise first(1 Thessalonians 4:16)---and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed(1 Corinthians 15:52)---So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory(1 Corinthians 15:54)----But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Corinthians 15:57)

If none of these things above are referring to the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4 & Revelation 20:6, thus don't fit that resurrection, what resurrection is the 1st resurrection referring to then, what resurrection does it instead fit?

BABerean2 · Jul 28, 2018

DavidPT said:
If none of these things above are referring to the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4 & Revelation 20:6, thus don't fit that resurrection, what resurrection is the 1st resurrection referring to then, what resurrection does it instead fit?

Maybe it is the following...

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Is was dead, but now I am alive, through faith in Christ.

There are two resurrections in John chapter 5.

The first resurrection in the passage is the spiritual resurrection, through being "born again" of the Spirit.

The second resurrection in the passge is one you listed above in John 5:27-30, which is the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead.

The same person recorded both John 5 and Revelation 20.

John saw "souls" in heaven.
Have they already been through John 5:24?

.

vinsight4u · Jul 28, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 28, 2018

Few know.
It is simpler than all that.
Trust the Father in heaven, no matter what ..... this is most vital.... in Jesus.

DavidPT · Jul 29, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Maybe it is the following...

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Is was dead, but now I am alive, through faith in Christ.

There are two resurrections in John chapter 5.

The first resurrection in the passage is the spiritual resurrection, through being "born again" of the Spirit.

The second resurrection in the passge is one you listed above in John 5:27-30, which is the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead.

The same person recorded both John 5 and Revelation 20.

John saw "souls" in heaven.
Have they already been through John 5:24?

.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Do you then take John 5:24 to be meaning---that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands?

BABerean2 · Jul 29, 2018

DavidPT said:
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Do you then take John 5:24 to be meaning---that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands?

No.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(If a person passes from death to life what would you call it?)

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (This the the bodily resurrection of all the dead.)
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (It occurs at the judgment.)

There are two resurrections in John chapter 5.
The first is spiritual and the second is the resurrection of the body.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found in Revelation 11:18.
Your Bible says the same thing.

.

Davy · Jul 30, 2018

DavidPT said:
....
Let's start here for now. Neither can they die any more(Luke 20:36)---on such the second death hath no power(Revelation 20:6)

What is the 2nd death? Is it not death? When does Luke 20 indicate one can not die anymore? they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead. Isn't that when? Wouldn't that be when the 2nd death has no power over those who have part in the 1st resurrection?

Neither can they die any more(Luke 20:36)---they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life(John 5:29)---of the just(Acts 24:15)----the dead in Christ shall rise first(1 Thessalonians 4:16)---and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed(1 Corinthians 15:52)---So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory(1 Corinthians 15:54)----But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Corinthians 15:57)

If none of these things above are referring to the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4 & Revelation 20:6, thus don't fit that resurrection, what resurrection is the 1st resurrection referring to then, what resurrection does it instead fit?

You seem to be struggling with who the 1st resurrection is.

It should be simple that the 1st resurrection is about the overcomers in Christ Jesus, including the OT saints (The Gospel first began with Abraham actually (see Galatians 3).

The "second death" we are told is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the Judgment after the 1,000 years (see Rev.20:14). What kind of death is that? It is not a flesh death. It is a death of one's spirit/soul.

Many brethren fail to put it together in God's Word about the "day of the Lord" events and thereafter. God is going to literally end... this present world using His fire (2 Pet.3:10; Hebrews 12:25-29). That is going to end this present world of flesh.

I have to laugh inwardly and hide it with brethren who think when Jesus returns we're going to be in new flesh bodies. Nowhere did Apostle Paul teach that idea, but instead just the opposite, as he said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does incorruption inherit corruption (1 Cor.15). And Apostle Paul gave us more detail about the type of body the resurrection is than any other in Scripture.

Yet many forget to read their Old Testament, wrongly thinking it's all history. They don't even recognize where Paul got the idea of death being swallowed up in victory from...

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

That is to show the timing, which is about God's consuming fire that will end this present world on the "day of the Lord" as Peter showed in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Like Peter said, God doesn't wish for any to perish, but that all should come to repentance. That is why there will be a thousand years reign by our Lord Jesus and His elect over the wicked in the world to come, before the event of the "second death" of casting into the "lake of fire". God will not destroy any soul that has yet to hear AND understand... The Gospel. Only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire" event. No flesh man has been judged to perish yet, not even Judas who betrayed our Lord Jesus.

So like the end of Zechariah 14 shows, ALL ... peoples and nations will be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year and worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles. Those who do not, there will be no rain on their lands, showing even in that future time, there will still be some who won't believe. That's what that feast here is about.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

There it is, what Apostle Paul quoted in 1 Cor.15 about death being swallowed up when one's body of corruption has put on incorruption.

The change to the spiritual body (body of incorruption), is to happen for ALL PEOPLES, including the wicked. That is why the "resurrection of damnation" will also occur on the same day of Jesus' return.

The difference between the 1st resurrection and the wicked is that the wicked will only have the basic resurrection body, a body of incorruption, but still subject to the "second death". It means their soul will not have put on immortality because of unbelief.

9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
KJV

No mistake what timing that is about.

Thus for the future 1,000 years:

John 5:28-29 = both Christ's asleep saints & the wicked dead, are raised. But the wicked raised "resurrection of damnation" still have a resurrection body that can perish in the "lake of fire", which is the "second death". And for those having trouble understanding this, notice that Satan will go into the "lake of fire", and he has no flesh body either. So the "second death" is NOT about death of the flesh, but only about death of one's spirit with soul.

Those still alive on earth 'changed' at Christ's coming = Christ's alive saints, but also the wicked on earth that are still alive also (Isa.25). The power of flesh death will be over after Jesus' 2nd coming. In 1 Cor.15, Paul covered TWO CHANGES to have eternal Life in Christ Jesus.

1st change = body of corruption (flesh body) must put on incorruption (body of incorruption, or the "spiritual body"). Both the Just and the unjust will have this.

2nd change = "this mortal" must put on immortality. This is about our soul condition. Only by Faith on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ can our soul be made immortal and thus never subject to the "second death". But the wicked who dwell in unbelief will still have mortal souls still subject to the "second death".

BABerean2 · Jul 30, 2018

Davy said:
You seem to be struggling with who the 1st resurrection is.

It should be simple that the 1st resurrection is about the overcomers in Christ Jesus, including the OT saints (The Gospel first began with Abraham actually (see Galatians 3).

The "second death" we are told is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the Judgment after the 1,000 years (see Rev.20:14). What kind of death is that? It is not a flesh death. It is a death of one's spirit/soul.

Many brethren fail to put it together in God's Word about the "day of the Lord" events and thereafter. God is going to literally end... this present world using His fire (2 Pet.3:10; Hebrews 12:25-29). That is going to end this present world of flesh.

I have to laugh inwardly and hide it with brethren who think when Jesus returns we're going to be in new flesh bodies. Nowhere did Apostle Paul teach that idea, but instead just the opposite, as he said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does incorruption inherit corruption (1 Cor.15). And Apostle Paul gave us more detail about the type of body the resurrection is than any other in Scripture.

Yet many forget to read their Old Testament, wrongly thinking it's all history. They don't even recognize where Paul got the idea of death being swallowed up in victory from...

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

That is to show the timing, which is about God's consuming fire that will end this present world on the "day of the Lord" as Peter showed in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Like Peter said, God doesn't wish for any to perish, but that all should come to repentance. That is why there will be a thousand years reign by our Lord Jesus and His elect over the wicked in the world to come, before the event of the "second death" of casting into the "lake of fire". God will not destroy any soul that has yet to hear AND understand... The Gospel. Only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire" event. No flesh man has been judged to perish yet, not even Judas who betrayed our Lord Jesus.

So like the end of Zechariah 14 shows, ALL ... peoples and nations will be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year and worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles. Those who do not, there will be no rain on their lands, showing even in that future time, there will still be some who won't believe. That's what that feast here is about.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

There it is, what Apostle Paul quoted in 1 Cor.15 about death being swallowed up when one's body of corruption has put on incorruption.

The change to the spiritual body (body of incorruption), is to happen for ALL PEOPLES, including the wicked. That is why the "resurrection of damnation" will also occur on the same day of Jesus' return.

The difference between the 1st resurrection and the wicked is that the wicked will only have the basic resurrection body, a body of incorruption, but still subject to the "second death". It means their soul will not have put on immortality because of unbelief.

9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
KJV

No mistake what timing that is about.

Thus for the future 1,000 years:

John 5:28-29 = both Christ's asleep saints & the wicked dead, are raised. But the wicked raised "resurrection of damnation" still have a resurrection body that can perish in the "lake of fire", which is the "second death". And for those having trouble understanding this, notice that Satan will go into the "lake of fire", and he has no flesh body either. So the "second death" is NOT about death of the flesh, but only about death of one's spirit with soul.

Those still alive on earth 'changed' at Christ's coming = Christ's alive saints, but also the wicked on earth that are still alive also (Isa.25). The power of flesh death will be over after Jesus' 2nd coming. In 1 Cor.15, Paul covered TWO CHANGES to have eternal Life in Christ Jesus.

1st change = body of corruption (flesh body) must put on incorruption (body of incorruption, or the "spiritual body"). Both the Just and the unjust will have this.

2nd change = "this mortal" must put on immortality. This is about our soul condition. Only by Faith on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ can our soul be made immortal and thus never subject to the "second death". But the wicked who dwell in unbelief will still have mortal souls still subject to the "second death".

Did Christ have a body after His resurrection.

Did He eat a meal with His disciples?

When His body ascended into heaven what happened to that body?

Is heaven a real place?

.

Davy · Jul 30, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Did Christ have a body after His resurrection.

Did He eat a meal with His disciples?

When His body ascended into heaven what happened to that body?

Is heaven a real place?

.

The resurrection body is able to eat man's food and live upon the earth. Remember the two angels sent to Lot (Gen.18 & 19).

Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does incorruption inherit corruption. He also said as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. What is the image of the heavenly? It is a body like the angels Jesus said.

Thus our Lord's flesh body was transfigured, and kept the marks of His crucifixion. Howbeit the resurrection body will still appear and feel like flesh, yet it is not the same flesh we have today that perishes.

Brethren need to dump the old Jewish traditions of reincarnation, because that's what belief in receiving a new FLESH body really is, reincarnation. And it was a false doctrine of the Jews in the Apostle's time also:

Matt 16:13-14
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?"
14 And they said, Some say that Thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
KJV

(In case some still struggle with understanding how the above verses point to the theory of reincarnation, stop and think. Thinking our Lord Jesus was a raised John the Baptist is a stupid idea, because what about Jesus as an infant and growing up and appearing to John and being baptized by John? Does not compute. Jesus as Elias? Plausible somewhat, since Elijah was taken and did not die. As Jeremiah or one of the prophets? They all died, so that would be belief in reincarnation if Jesus had been one of them.)

John 9:2
2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
KJV

For the blind man to be born blind in this world because he sinned prior to his birth, is pointing to the idea of a past life, and thus the pagan theory of reincarnation. Since the scribes were not of Israel, but of the Kenites of the land of Canaan, and many of the Pharisee also were foreigners of the leftover Canaanites, that's where such old pagan beliefs crept in among the Jews.

BABerean2 · Jul 30, 2018

Davy said:
The resurrection body is able to eat man's food and live upon the earth. Remember the two angels sent to Lot (Gen.18 & 19).

Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does incorruption inherit corruption. He also said as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. What is the image of the heavenly? It is a body like the angels Jesus said.

Thus our Lord's flesh body was transfigured, and kept the marks of His crucifixion. Howbeit the resurrection body will still appear and feel like flesh, yet it is not the same flesh we have today that perishes.

Brethren need to dump the old Jewish traditions of reincarnation, because that's what belief in receiving a new FLESH body really is, reincarnation. And it was a false doctrine of the Jews in the Apostle's time also:

Matt 16:13-14
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?"
14 And they said, Some say that Thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
KJV

John 9:2
2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
KJV

For the blind man to be born blind in this world because he sinned prior to his birth, is pointing to the idea of a past life, and thus the pagan theory of reincarnation. Since the scribes were not of Israel, but of the Kenites of the land of Canaan, and many of the Pharisee also were foreigners of the leftover Canaanites, that's where such old pagan beliefs crept in among the Jews.

Did Adam have a body before he sinned?

Did Adam's body change after he sinned?

.

Davy · Jul 30, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Did Adam have a body before he sinned?

Did Adam's body change after he sinned?

.

Irrelevant, since God formed Adam's flesh of the ground, JUST as our flesh body today is still formed of earth matter. Adam was NOT... in the "spiritual body" of the resurrection that Apostle Paul taught, so no immortality idea of flesh can be applied to Adam's flesh. If it could, then Adam's flesh could not have sin, and thus could not have died ever. Yet the seed of sin was already in Adam's flesh, prepared for this world. If he and Eve had not sinned, and that sin not assigned to all men, then where would we be? There would be no reason for Jesus to be sent as The Savior.

DavidPT · Jul 30, 2018

Davy said:
You seem to be struggling with who the 1st resurrection is.

It should be simple that the 1st resurrection is about the overcomers in Christ Jesus, including the OT saints (The Gospel first began with Abraham actually (see Galatians 3).

The "second death" we are told is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the Judgment after the 1,000 years (see Rev.20:14). What kind of death is that? It is not a flesh death. It is a death of one's spirit/soul.

Many brethren fail to put it together in God's Word about the "day of the Lord" events and thereafter. God is going to literally end... this present world using His fire (2 Pet.3:10; Hebrews 12:25-29). That is going to end this present world of flesh.

I have to laugh inwardly and hide it with brethren who think when Jesus returns we're going to be in new flesh bodies. Nowhere did Apostle Paul teach that idea, but instead just the opposite, as he said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does incorruption inherit corruption (1 Cor.15). And Apostle Paul gave us more detail about the type of body the resurrection is than any other in Scripture.

Yet many forget to read their Old Testament, wrongly thinking it's all history. They don't even recognize where Paul got the idea of death being swallowed up in victory from...

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

That is to show the timing, which is about God's consuming fire that will end this present world on the "day of the Lord" as Peter showed in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Like Peter said, God doesn't wish for any to perish, but that all should come to repentance. That is why there will be a thousand years reign by our Lord Jesus and His elect over the wicked in the world to come, before the event of the "second death" of casting into the "lake of fire". God will not destroy any soul that has yet to hear AND understand... The Gospel. Only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire" event. No flesh man has been judged to perish yet, not even Judas who betrayed our Lord Jesus.

So like the end of Zechariah 14 shows, ALL ... peoples and nations will be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year and worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles. Those who do not, there will be no rain on their lands, showing even in that future time, there will still be some who won't believe. That's what that feast here is about.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

There it is, what Apostle Paul quoted in 1 Cor.15 about death being swallowed up when one's body of corruption has put on incorruption.

The change to the spiritual body (body of incorruption), is to happen for ALL PEOPLES, including the wicked. That is why the "resurrection of damnation" will also occur on the same day of Jesus' return.

The difference between the 1st resurrection and the wicked is that the wicked will only have the basic resurrection body, a body of incorruption, but still subject to the "second death". It means their soul will not have put on immortality because of unbelief.

9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
KJV

No mistake what timing that is about.

Thus for the future 1,000 years:

John 5:28-29 = both Christ's asleep saints & the wicked dead, are raised. But the wicked raised "resurrection of damnation" still have a resurrection body that can perish in the "lake of fire", which is the "second death". And for those having trouble understanding this, notice that Satan will go into the "lake of fire", and he has no flesh body either. So the "second death" is NOT about death of the flesh, but only about death of one's spirit with soul.

Those still alive on earth 'changed' at Christ's coming = Christ's alive saints, but also the wicked on earth that are still alive also (Isa.25). The power of flesh death will be over after Jesus' 2nd coming. In 1 Cor.15, Paul covered TWO CHANGES to have eternal Life in Christ Jesus.

1st change = body of corruption (flesh body) must put on incorruption (body of incorruption, or the "spiritual body"). Both the Just and the unjust will have this.

2nd change = "this mortal" must put on immortality. This is about our soul condition. Only by Faith on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ can our soul be made immortal and thus never subject to the "second death". But the wicked who dwell in unbelief will still have mortal souls still subject to the "second death".

Between your take on this and Amil's take on this, the latter makes the better sense, though I still disagree with both your take and their take on this.

BABerean2 · Jul 30, 2018

Davy said:
Irrelevant, since God formed Adam's flesh of the ground, JUST as our flesh body today is still formed of earth matter. Adam was NOT... in the "spiritual body" of the resurrection that Apostle Paul taught, so no immortality idea of flesh can be applied to Adam's flesh. If it could, then Adam's flesh could not have sin, and thus could not have died ever. Yet the seed of sin was already in Adam's flesh, prepared for this world. If he and Eve had not sinned, and that sin not assigned to all men, then where would we be? There would be no reason for Jesus to be sent as The Savior.

Nothing in scripture is "irrelevant". It shows you are attempting to ignore the scripture which caused problems for your viewpoint.

Christ is the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15.

Do you understand that Christ is the last Adam.

Adam made a choice. It was not forced upon him.

Christ came to reverse the curse.

.

DavidPT · Jul 30, 2018

Per Amil, if the first resurrection is being initially born again, and that it has to do with reigning with Christ a thousand years, and since satan's little season has to follow after the thousand years are finished, can anyone be saved during satan's little season then? The reason I ask, in order to be part of the first resurrection, one gets to reign with Christ a thousand years. When satan's little season begins though, it is no longer the thousand years. If anyone gets saved during satan's little season, thus making them part of the first resurrection as well, how could they be though? To have part in the first resurrection means reigning with Christ a thousand years. How could anyone saved during satan's little season then somehow also reign with Christ a thousand years when the thousand years would already be finished and in the past at this point?

So once again, per Amil, can people still be saved during satan's little season? If no, what Scriptures are you basing that on? If yes, how is that logical in relation to being a part of the first resurrection, where everyone who has part in it, they reign with Christ a thousand years?

Davy · Jul 31, 2018

DavidPT said:
Per Amil, if the first resurrection is being initially born again, and that it has to do with reigning with Christ a thousand years, and since satan's little season has to follow after the thousand years are finished, can anyone be saved during satan's little season then? The reason I ask, in order to be part of the first resurrection, one gets to reign with Christ a thousand years. When satan's little season begins though, it is no longer the thousand years. If anyone gets saved during satan's little season, thus making them part of the first resurrection as well, how could they be though? To have part in the first resurrection means reigning with Christ a thousand years. How could anyone saved during satan's little season then somehow also reign with Christ a thousand years when the thousand years would already be finished and in the past at this point?

So once again, per Amil, can people still be saved during satan's little season? If no, what Scriptures are you basing that on? If yes, how is that logical in relation to being a part of the first resurrection, where everyone who has part in it, they reign with Christ a thousand years?

Amil doesn't believe in a literal 1,000 years reign by Jesus.

DavidPT · Jul 31, 2018

Davy said:
Amil doesn't believe in a literal 1,000 years reign by Jesus.

Why would that matter though? Even if the thousand years are 2000 years to them, and assuming their position is correct, eventually that 2000 years would have to end and satan's little season begin.

In general, my logic is basically the following.

Before the thousand years, during the thousand years, after the thousand years---this all involves chronology, regardless whether it occurs in this age or the next age, and regardless whether it is literal years or that it is not. IOW when it is before the time of the thousand years, it can't at the same time be during the thousand years, nor after the thousand years. When it is during the time of the thousand years, it can't at the same time be before the thousand years, nor after the thousand years. When it is after the time of the thousand years, it can't at the same time be during the thousand years, nor before the thousand years.

Davy · Jul 31, 2018

DavidPT said:
Why would that matter though? Even if the thousand years are 2000 years to them, and assuming their position is correct, eventually that 2000 years would have to end and satan's little season begin.

In general, my logic is basically the following.

Before the thousand years, during the thousand years, after the thousand years---this all involves chronology, regardless whether it occurs in this age or the next age, and regardless whether it is literal years or that it is not. IOW when it is before the time of the thousand years, it can't at the same time be during the thousand years, nor after the thousand years. When it is during the time of the thousand years, it can't at the same time be before the thousand years, nor after the thousand years. When it is after the time of the thousand years, it can't at the same time be during the thousand years, nor before the thousand years.

Confusion.

DavidPT · Jul 31, 2018

Davy said:
Confusion.

I don't see how there could be any confusion on my part though? Before the thousand years satan is not bound yet. During the thousand years he is. After the thousand years he no longer is. Therefore, 3 distinct periods of time in view here.

20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

These fit two periods of time. They initially lived during this time----Before the thousand years. During this time---during the thousand years---they are dead and remain dead the entire thousand years meant here. Sometime during this time, likely at the end of it---satan's little season---they then live again, meaning Revelation 20:11-15.

Davy · Jul 31, 2018

DavidPT said:
I don't see how there could be any confusion on my part though? Before the thousand years satan is not bound yet. During the thousand years he is. After the thousand years he no longer is. Therefore, 3 distinct periods of time in view here.

20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

These fit two periods of time. They initially lived during this time----Before the thousand years. During this time---during the thousand years---they are dead and remain dead the entire thousand years meant here. Sometime during this time, likely at the end of it---satan's little season---they then live again, meaning Revelation 20:11-15.

Yes, your theory is confusion.

The Scripture flow is plain enough. At Christ's 2nd coming, Satan is locked into his pit prison for 1,000 years while Jesus and His elect reign over the nations with His promised "rod of iron" of Ps.2.

Here is an OT Scripture that confirms the order of the Revelation "thousand years" being exactly as written, i.e., right after the end of this present world.

Isa 24:19-23
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.
KJV

That Isaiah 24 Scripture verifies 2 major things about order of events in Revelation. It reveals Jesus on earth reigning in Jerusalem after the "day of the Lord" events of verses 19-20, and it reveals the kings of the earth also being locked up in Satan's pit prison waiting for the GWT Judgment (i.e., "after many days shall they be visited").

At the end of the 1,000 years, Satan is loosed one final time to go tempt the nations, and he leads the deceived out of those nations upon the "camp of the saints" on earth, and God sends His fire from Heaven down upon them, burns them up, and casts Satan into the lake of fire. Then the GWT Judgment begins.

adhidw · Jul 31, 2018

DavidPT said:
Per Amil, if the first resurrection is being initially born again, and that it has to do with reigning with Christ a thousand years, and since satan's little season has to follow after the thousand years are finished, can anyone be saved during satan's little season then? The reason I ask, in order to be part of the first resurrection, one gets to reign with Christ a thousand years. When satan's little season begins though, it is no longer the thousand years. If anyone gets saved during satan's little season, thus making them part of the first resurrection as well, how could they be though? To have part in the first resurrection means reigning with Christ a thousand years. How could anyone saved during satan's little season then somehow also reign with Christ a thousand years when the thousand years would already be finished and in the past at this point?

So once again, per Amil, can people still be saved during satan's little season? If no, what Scriptures are you basing that on? If yes, how is that logical in relation to being a part of the first resurrection, where everyone who has part in it, they reign with Christ a thousand years?

can people still be saved during satan's little season?

No.

Rev9:1-5;

Rev9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Verse 4 , indicates the sealing process has already finished Rev7:3 ( 1000 yrs = sealing process ), say in that time there are: a, b, c, d, e, f , g, h.

a-d with seal , e-h without seal , only e-h Satan can torment , and never to a-d .

But actually a-d are still alive in that time ( Satan’s little season ), they still need gospel to complete their treasury till Jer23:20 is fulfilled , though they actually had been saved that time ( sealed = saved ).

Rev14:1-4;

Rev14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb

After the sealing process is finished , there is no any one who will be redeemed from this earth.

“Saved” surely means: is redeemed from this earth to be eternally live with Him.

Rev5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

One day after His last name sojourners ( a, b, c, d ) treasury are fulfilled , the gospel will no longer be needed :

Rev11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them

If yes, how is that logical in relation to being a part of the first resurrection, where everyone who has part in it, they reign with Christ a thousand years?

Rev20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Bold letters in verse 4 same with Rev6:11 , prior to the verse 11 they not yet understood that “salvation = by God’s Grace alone “ (they lived physically in OT or before the cross event or before the Bible is completely cannoned ) when they were given the white robes = they enter the Kingdom as the Kingdom communities = reigned with Christ a thousand yrs , compared to Rev7:9 ( wore white robes already because they have understood well that the salvation= by God’s grace alone , see also Rev3:4-5 all of them lives in NT ).

Col3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Same with Col3:1 , refer not to literal risen/resurrection , if the Bible actually refer to literal resurrection , surely there is no worldly things all the things surely above things why should there be words : seek those things which are above ? ( these words suggest that there are still heavenly things and worldly things around them or the risen is not literal) .

Rev20:6 , also refer to the same issue with Rev2:11.

Rev2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death (Smyrna churches are still alive physically that time/ the saveds / the overcomths they are all assured not to be hurt by the second death ).

If the first resurrection in Rev20:6 actually refer to literal , so:

20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

The words: “on such the second death hath no power” are not needed to be there, every one surely know if they are resurrected in a glory by God the second death shall never touch them

How can they ( if literal ) judge the devils/angels in the lastday judgment ? 1Cor6:3 .

The first resurrection--Revelation 20:4 & Revelation 20:6

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