Chronology of Revelation

iamlamad said:

This is all human reasoning. The text prove: the two witnesses show up just before the abomination (Because the man of sin entered Jerusalem with His Gentile armies).

Click to expand...

No, that is not the reason the two witnesses show up. The two witnesses begin their prophesying as soon as the 7 years begin and the person has been anointed the (illegimate) King of Israel.

The two witnesses' 1260 days testimony time is the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6. Right before the war in the (second) heaven takes place when the 7th trumpet is blown, and Satan caste down to earth.

And the 42 months which the gentiles occupy city of Jerusalem is the 42 months in Revelation 13.

The 42 months in Revelation 13 contain the time, times, half time that Satan will have left in Revelation 12:14.

Revealing Times said:

Its actually pretty simple, and engineer should be able to grasp the simplicity of the math. Oddly, geniuses like Einstein sometimes got stymied by simple math, believe it our not.

The Two-witnesses and the Beast/Little Horn are given identical time periods as per them being n their "OFFICES" on purpose by God. He is all knowing, but its still simple math, I think many overthink it. Both or in their "OFFICES" for 1260 days.

Two- Witnesses Day 1..............................They die at the 2nd Woe = 1260 Days.

..........Beast Conquers Jerusalem Day 1.........................Beast dies at the 7th Vial = 1260 Days.

Click to expand...

The two witnesses begin their prophesying as soon as the 7 years begin and the person has been anointed the (illegimate) King of Israel.

The two witnesses' 1260 days testimony time is the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6. Right before the war in the (second) heaven takes place when the 7th trumpet is blown, and Satan caste down to earth.

And the 42 months which the gentiles occupy city of Jerusalem is the 42 months in Revelation 13.

The 42 months in Revelation 13 contain the time, times, half time that Satan will have left in Revelation 12:14.


day 1........day1260 two witnesses killed ....day 1263.5 they ascend......1256.5 days left (called 42 months in Revelation, that the beast will rule unimpeded ).

Revealing Times said:

How anyone can not get that their "OFFICES" do not parallel exactly is beyond me brother, its simple math. The Beast dies AFTER the Two-witnesses die, thus they CAN NOT COME into their "OFFICES" at the same time.

Click to expand...

The beast will be cast into the lake of fire 1260 days after he will have killed the two witnesses.

The person is not the beast when the two witnesses begin their 1260 days testimony. The person will be the Antichrist in the beginning of the 7 years. The two witnesses will prophesy that he will betray Israel, his fellow Jews, and that God is the One True God.

iamlamad said:

I believe Rev. 11:4-13 is written as a parenthesis with no bearing on Chronology. John introduces us to the two witnesses IN Chronology, but then takes us on a side journey down the last half of the week with them only.

For chronology:
11:1-2 perhaps 3 1/2 days before the abomination: the man of sin enters Jerusalem
11:3 The two witnesses show up then because the man of sin enters Jerusalem
11:15: the 7th trumpet sounds marking the very moment the man of sin declares he is God
12:6 those in Judea begin to flee because they saw the abomination.

Click to expand...

I believe the whole chapter is a parenthesis (Parenthetical Citation) in that it must start before Revelation chapter 6, because the Two-witnesses have to show up before the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast. And then it is indeed a journey through the rest of the 70th week, even though they die 75 days before the Beast dies.

1.) The 3 1/2 days is not realistic, they have to get Israel to repent and Flee Judea before the 1260 Conquering in the Middle of the week.

2.) Malachi 4:5-6 says they show up BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

3.) The Anti-Christ comes forth at the First Seal brother, not the 7th Trump.

4.) True, but that happens before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem.

iamlamad said:

The third woe is the 7th trumpet! John tells us this. But why? Because at the 7th trumpet the earth lease given to ADam expires, and suddenly the devil has no more legal hold, and is cast down from the heavenly VERY ANGRY. And John wrote WOE to those on earth!

Click to expand...

I think Satan is cast down just before Israel Flee in Rev. ch. 7, the 144,000 is Israel FLEEING Judea. When the sun and moon give not her light and the Stars as cast down to earth, the stars are Satan and his Demons being cast to earth as untimely figs. Their time in Heaven is up, then Satan via the Anti-Christ chases Israel into the Wilderness (Rev. 7---144,000). Rev. 7, Rev. 12 and Rev. 18, where God calls on Israel to "Come out of her my people, lest you partake in her PLAGUES" are all the same events.

iamlamad said:

Rev 19 is in perfect time and fits with John's chronology. Many people imagine Jesus will come at the 7th vial that ends the 70th week. He will not. The marriage and supper will take place in heaven first. That marriage must wait for the Old Testament saints to arrive, after their resurrection at the 7th vial (the last day). So the events of chapters 17 and 18 will take place on earth while the marriage is taking place in heaven.

(When two or more events are happening at the same time, what can John do? He can't write of them all at once! He has to write of one event, then another.)

Finally, after the marriage and supper, Jesus returns, as shown in Rev. 19. These verses really destroys post trib thinking because they will miss the marriage. So they fix that by moving the marriage to the sky or to the earth! WRONG!

Click to expand...

Rev. 17 and 18 are not real time events per se. Rev. 19 likewise is not a real time event, we see the Bride in heaven, already having married the Lamb in Rev. 4:4, 5:9 and in Rev. 7:9-17. There is one sliver of Rev. 19 that is a part of the Chronological order, that is where the Beast and the False Prophet are cast into hell. As per the Marriage Supper (Battle of Armageddon) that really takes place at the 7th Vial in Rev. ch. 16, so its already happened before we Rev. 19, so its a set-a-side. So the Marriage did happen first, and the Marriage Supper is Armageddon.

The Old Testament Saints were married to God, got a bill of divorcement, the Bride of Christ marries the Lamb in Heaven, Daniel remember is raised up with the Old Testament Saints at the end, when Israel is Rescued. They are Gods Bride however.

Rev. 17 is the Beast and his Kings killing off Islam and all False Religions, that happens in Rev. chapter 6, its a huge part of the 1.5 to 2 Billion people the Beast kills via the first four seals.

Rev. 18 is a much longer period of time, but like Rev. 17 it also starts off in Rev. ch. 6, it is Babylon (the World) getting hit with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Plagues of God, so of course it starts in Rev. 6, and runs through Rev. 16, the 7th Vial. But Rev. 16 ends it all, the Angel says, It is Done !!

ewq1938 said:

Why do you think the dif is 75 days? I say it's 3.5 days.

The two witnesses have 1260 days which is the same exact length of time but that doesn't perfectly coincide with the 42 months and there is an easy way to find that. The two witnesses are dead 3.5 days while the beast is still in power during it's 42 months so that tells us the two witnesses start their time 3.5 days before the 42 month end. That 42 month time ends the same day the prophets rise from the dead because the 7th trump second coming occurs that day and I believe the beast is destroyed that day as well.

Click to expand...

I now understand why you think it might be 3 1/2 days. You remember I stated Rev. 11 is a Parenthetical Citation, so it shows "VAGUELY" what happens after they die via the 7th Trumpet, which is the 3rd Woe which is ALL SEVEN VIALS, but the Vials are shown in full detail in Rev. 16, they last much longer than 3 1/2 days. Rev. 11 only finishes out the story of the Two-witnesses who prayed down the plagues, in other words their prayers were heard and honored after they died, so we are told the 7th Trumpet sounds and Jesus takes over, but the 7th Trumpet brings the 3rd Woe which is ALL SEVEN VIALS. Besides that the Two-witnesses ascend in verse 12 and the 2nd Woe ENDS in verse 14, so the COMING 3rd Woes TIME-LINE can have nothing to do in reality with the 3 1/2 days.

Just the Gathering of all the Armies pf the world to Armageddon would take weeks. And that's just one Vial. The way I get 75 days is via reverse engineering.

In Daniel ch. 12 verse 6 and 7, we see that Jesus swears that from the time the power holy peoples are SCATTERED (they are Conquered) there shall be 1260 Days until all of these wonders end [by the Second Coming]. Thus the Beast rules for 1260 days over the holy peoples.

Then it hit me, the Abomination of Desolation actually happens at the 1290 (Dan. 12:11) which is 30 days before the 1260 (the Holy Spirit gave me this a few months ago) and thus the 1335 is 75 days before the 1260. Remember who places the image in the Temple in Rev. 13, its the False Prophet.

It hit me on two fronts, why does the AoD happen 30 days after the Beast Conquers Jerusalem? And the Spirit says to me, you have it all backwards, just as the 1260 is the NUMBER of days left from the time the holy peoples are scattered unto the END OF THESE WONDERS or the Second Coming, likewise all of the Numbers mentioned in Daniel ch. 12 are the number of days from a certain event until the Second Coming.

Thus the 1290 is 1290 days until the END OF THESE WONDERS or the Second Coming of Jesus also, thus the AoD happens 30 days before the Beast come to power by Conquering Israel. Then I asked myself, does this make sense (TEST THE SPIRITS). And it most certainly made sense. Why would the Beast allow the Jews to Flee Judea if Jesus had RELEASED him to go forth Conquering? He wouldn't, he would kill the Jews before they had a chance to flee, thus the Warning by Jesus in Matthew 24 to Flee Judea when they see the AoD. Also, why would the Jews WAIT until something happens in the TEMPLE ? Why wouldn't the city being Conquered be a much graver threat in their minds !! So it all fit like a glove, and passed the logic test. Of course, it was the number of days from EACH EVENT until the Second Coming. Now I needed figure out the 1335, what could it be? It has to be a BLESSING !!

So what is the BLESSING that happens during the the 70th week? It has to happen 75 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem to become the Beast. What could it possibly be !! Then I got it, the Two-witnesses turn Israel BACK unto God, before the Day of the Lord so says Malachi 4:5-6. The DOTL starts at the First Seal. Thus the Two-witnesses show up 75 days before the Beast shows up boa Conquering Jerusalem, but DOES THIS FIT ? Well, yes it does. The Two-witnesses and the Beast are supposed to be in their Prophesied "OFFICES" for 1260 days, and if the Two-witnesses show up BEFORE the Beast they must die before the Beast and that is EXACTLY what happens, the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, the Beast dies at the 7th Vial !! It fits like a glove because its of God. God had a reason for the 1260 days, it a way to measure everything in juxtaposition to everything else. The Seals, Trumpets and Vials are all Gods Wrath, as a matter of fact they all come from the Seventh Seal, the Trumpets are the 7th Seal, and the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe which is the 7th Trumpet.

So the Two-witnesses show up at the 1335 or 75 days before the Beast becomes the Beast at the 1260. The False Prophet places an Image in the Temple at the 1290, which is 30 days before the 1260, and that is the Key Sign to the Repented Jews, they know via this sign to Flee Judea, they have 30 days before the Beast will e upon them.

I do not claim to be an expert on this mysterious work nor do I claim the perfect interpretation of those parts which are symbolic in nature (according to the Hebrew apocalyptic) but this I will offer. In a number of places (some say 5 and others 7) the passages culminate with the coming of Christ or the establishment of His kingdom. Since this is in reality only a one time event (the Parousia) then those things which precede the coming in each section overlap. The book (inho) is not meant to be strictly chronological but speaks of overlapping events all culminating in His arrival and the events which follow.

ewq1938 said:

We know the Lord's day here is a 7th trump reference because of this:

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Click to expand...

I think I eventually came to understand that you think the Seals/Trumpets are co-mingled. As per the Voice as a Trumpet, it only means Jesus' call is reverberating like a trumpet reverberates.

ewq1938 said:

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

This is the clue. He is prepared for war just as it is described in Rev 19 which is the 7th trump return:


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Similarities

1. His eyes were as a flame of fire
2. and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword

The only time he is described like this is when he returns so it must be that same day.

Click to expand...

Rev. 19 is not a Real Time Event, but the similarities only mean what they mean brother, there is going to be NO FIGHT, Jesus is just going to SPEAK VICTORY, like he SPOKE CREATION. This s why he is described as such. We are supposed to see Jesus/God as ALL KNOWING, and ALL SEEING, and his Word as ALL POWERFUL. When he is described like this is not relevant point, Revelation is a book about Jesus and the Saints overcoming the Anti-Christ, his minions and Satan.

ewq1938 said:

ok. Doesn't that also prove that John was taken to the day of the Lord 7th trump?

Click to expand...

Except the Day of the Lord is a 3.5 year event that starts with the opening of the First Seal. As per it being the Lords Day or Day of the Lord its not a sticking point for me tbh.

ewq1938 said:

No. They are all preparations for the build up to the AC and the trib, but the AC appears at the 6th trump so only one Seal is specifically about him.

Click to expand...

We disagree here. The Anti-Christ is released by the opening of the First Seal, these Deaths are on him.

ewq1938 said:

I didn't say overlap. The seals tell us info about the 7 trumps. All 7 seals are opened before any trumps sound. As I said with the 6th seal, we are given events that happen when the 7th trump sounds...the return of Christ given from the perspective of the unsaved. There isn't an actual return of Christ in the 6th seal and the 7th trump. So, we then know the 6th seal is showing a preview of something yet to happen within the 7th trump.

Click to expand...

I see an escalation, there are THREE EARTHQUAKES, remember, God always warns people He is judging. Right near the end of the Seals there is a Great Earthquake, then close to the end of the Trumpets there is another Earthquake, and then when Jesus lands at the 7th Vial there is an Earthquake that splits Jerusalem into. I think many people confuse these events as all being one and the same, they aren't.

ewq1938 said:

It's a real time event...it simply is the same time frame as the end of Rev 11, the second coming. The 6th seal would be more of a "Parenthetical Citation, or a set-a-side, not a Real Time Event." since the seal is opened before the 2nd coming happens.

Click to expand...

We see the Bride with White Robes on in Rev. 4:4, thus Rev. 19, where Jesus is about to Marry the Bride/Church has already happened, else they would not have had White Robes on in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 7:9-17. Point being, that is why its not a part of the Chronological order, and hence not a REAL TIME EVENT, meaning the Church marries Jesus before the First Seal is opened. Do you catch my drift now brother ?

ewq1938 said:

Nope. There is only one resurrection of the dead in Christ, and that happens just prior to the living saints being glorified/changed. After this there are no righteous left to resurrect or be changed.

Click to expand...

The Church is already Married in Rev. 4:4 and 5:9, the Martyrs under the Alter in Seal #5 happen after the Church are seen with White Robes on. The BEHEADED are judged in Rev. 20:4. The FIRST RESURRECTION is the resurrection of those of God, no matter when they are resurrected. The Second Resurrection is the Resurrection of those in/of Satan/the Wicked Tares who are bundled into their graves and will be judged in 1000 years.

The Dead IN CHRIST and the Living in Christ go to be with the Lord to Marry the Lamb in Heaven. The Martyrs of the 70th week are raised and judged in Rev. 20:4, they are ALL the First Resurrection. The way men see things and God sees things are totally different.

ewq1938 said:

You fail to understand my view of the seals and trumps.

Click to expand...

Evidently, but you are trying to juxtapose the two as being similar.

ewq1938 said:

There is no second resurrection of the saved depicted after the resurrection of the dead in Christ. Nor is there is a second changing of bodies for the living depicted. You seem to be inventing a second version of the resurrection of the dead in Christ and a second changing of bodies for living saints...but Rev speaks of no such thing.

Click to expand...

Correct, its all the FIRST RESURRECTION, you are just choosing to call it the 2nd Resurrection when God sees it as the First Resurrection of those OF GOD, no matter when it happens. Don't get hung up on what you see as NUMBERED EVENTS !! The World Series of Poker in Vegas has THREE Day Ones..........See my point ? One A........One B.......One C.

God has Two Resurrections, the first has a Day A........Day........b. Its the Resurrection of those who BELIEVE ON GOD !! Its not up to us to try and pigeonhole God.

ewq1938 said:

Nope. Verse 9 jumps to the future after the righteous had been judged. The last 3 verses are the clues to understand that. Remember chapter numbers mean nothing because they are man made. Just because some verses are in the same chapter as the seals does not mean it's the same timeframe.

Click to expand...

No sir, its the Church in Heaven, not the Martyrs of Revelation. We clearly see that the Beheaded and Martyrs of Tribulation do not get raised until the very end.

Rev. 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Those under the Alter in the 5th Seal are CLEARLY TOLD, they must wait until the Anti-Christ or Beasts reign of 42 Months is OVER !! Those seen in Rev. 4:4, 5:9 and 7:9-17 are not the 70th Week Tribulation Martyrs, they came out of the 2000 year Church Age Tribulation, they are the Bride of Christ.

ewq1938 said:

I remain correct on the timeframes being described.

Click to expand...

I have given an accurate time-line in my thread. Nothing else I can add tbh.

ewq1938 said:

They are different but the seals give us a glimpse of one of each 7 trumps. Seal 7 is not "all the trumps". It depicts silence in heaven. Nothing more than that. You make a common error to add in the trumps and you make it because of the same " it's all in the same chapter so it must be the same time as well" error. The chaptering error is the biggest thing to overcome when trying to study Rev. They can contain more than one timeframe so it's necessary to be able to identify when the timeframe jumps. That's the whole purpose of the OP in this thread.

Click to expand...

I don't agree here brother. The first four Seals are the Anti-Christ going forth to Conquer, the 5th Seal is the Martyrs. The 6th Seal is Gods Supernatural stamp on events, a WARNING its about to get far worse. The SEVENTH SEAL IS OPENED, all 7 of the Trumpets are readied at that time. The Seven Trumpets are very different from the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumpets comes from the 7th Seal !! The 7th Seal IS the 7 Trumpets !! Not many really get that. There are three Woes amongst the 7 Trumpets, the last Woe is the Seven Vials !! So the Seventh Seal has IN IT the 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials. That is why the Seals ARE Gods Wrath.

They are ALL in a consecutive time-frame. 6 Seals......7th Seal is the 7 Trumps.....Three Woes...the 3rd Woe is the 7 Vials.

I have the time-line correct, I do not count Rev. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 as a part of the time-line per se.

ewq1938 said:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

anti means "instead of" or an "impersonator of"

anti
473

473 anti {an-tee'}

a primary particle; TDNT - 1:372,61; prep

AV - for 15, because + 3639 4, for ... cause 1, therefore + 3639 1,
in the room of 1; 22

1) over against, opposite to, before
2) for, instead of, in place of (something)
2a) instead of
2b) for
2c) for that, because
2d) wherefore, for this cause

So an imposter both impersonates and opposes the true person being imitated.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called
God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

Christ is God, so to sit in the temple and claim to be God is the same difference as
saying one is Christ.

Click to expand...

I notice people go to the nth degree to try to prove points, I have had to knock this down many times. The Anti-Christ is AGAINST God, not in place of. Nowhere does Israel accept this man as their Messiah. Find it in the bible, its not there.
I have studied the word myself. He is called the Man of Sin and Little horn, he is called the Anti-Christ ONCE, we know who he is and what he does via many different scriptures. He is called THAT ANTI-CHRIST, meaning its a Specific Person in that instance also.

He opposes all things God, thus of course he wants to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD, just not as the Messiah of the Jewish people. I am also not 100 percent sure Paul gets this right. Jesus seems to suggest its an IMAGE that Stands in the Temple. Rev. ch. 13 seems to indicate the False Prophet places an Image of the Beast in the Temple. In Dan. 9:27, when translated properly, it suggests an IMAGE is placed in the corner (WING) of the Temple somewhere. Of course since this IMAGE COMES ALIVE, maybe Paul sees it as such, and sees this IMAGE coming alive, SPEAKING etc. etc. That would be pretty freaky !!

ewq1938 said:

Aside from the 75 day thing which I don't agree with, I already understand that the two witnesses start earlier and die before the beast does. I posted about it earlier today.

Click to expand...

It will be 75 Days, I am basically telling something I have been given, however I understand its confusing, it kinda confused me a bit when I received it....

ewq1938 said:

Yes but nothing states these are rebel angels that serve him...a similar event is in Daniel where stars from heaven are stamped upon. I think they are the same angels. Perhaps this starts the war in heaven.

Click to expand...

Those are the Leaders of Jerusalem, called the Host of Heaven. I have studied that in depth, I have a thread on Daniel 11 & 12 going through it step by step.

ewq1938 said:

If stars in heaven in Rev are angels then these are angels as well.

Click to expand...

I can get back to you on why it isn't, but its too late tonight.

ewq1938 said:

You have it backwards. The events of the trumps are real events. The events in the seals are not real time.

The seals are not action but knowledge. The trumps are action in fact trumpets were always used to signal an action to happen, especially in war. The seals are on a book and I believe that book to symbolize the plan of God in the end times so all seven seals must be broken before the trumps call to action begin.

Click to expand...

All of the Seal......Trumpet.....and Vials are REAL TIME EVENTS.....Everything in between are not Real Time Events.

Rev. 1-3 Seven Churches.......Rev. 4-5 is the Church in Heaven......Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9 and 16 are the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, they are all REAL TIME..........Rev. 20, 21 and 22 are REAL TIME EVENTS.

All the rest of the Chapters are NOT REAL TIME EVENTS !! My thread on this is much easier to understand than my posts here.....I took far more time on it.

ewq1938 said:

I don't agree with any of this. Rev 13:1 beast is a government with ten kingdoms spanning 7 mountains or areas of the world, likely the whole world is meant. The singular man is the second beast, the FP who is the AC mentions in other books.

Click to expand...

The Rev. 13 Beast is ONE of the SEVEN Heads, the 7 Mountains of Rev. 17 = the Seven Kingdoms, so no one can say they are in ONE PLACE on 7 Mountains. The 7 Kingdoms are reduced to 7 Kings who have FALLEN, the reason is the LAST BEAST is the only one of all the Kings to START a Beast System and DIE as the sole leader of the Kingdom. The False Prophet is he Second Best, he is over Religion, he has nothing to do with the Gov. side.

ewq1938 said:

I believe the FP will be Satan pretending to be God called the AC in a dif book written by John.

Click to expand...

Satan is NEITHER ONE......Watch this brother.

Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So the DEVIL (Satan) is cast into the Lake of fire after he spends a 1000 years in the Bottomless Pit. We see here that THE False Prophet and THE Beast await in there. They are Three different beings.

ewq1938 said:

Timeframe jumps are what occurs though. It's like starting out a story, then jumping to how the story ends, then jumping back to continue the start of the story...in modern TV or movies it can be a flashback if going back in the timeline, or flashing ahead etc. "Parenthetical Citation" is not the proper term to describe what happens in the story line in Rev.

Click to expand...

Just do like I stated, READ Rev. 1-3 as the Seven Churches. Chapters 4 and 5 as the Church in Heaven. Chapters 6, 7, 8, 9 and 16 as the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments. Rev. 20-22 as the Judgment and EVER-AFTER/New Jerusalem.

The Rest of the chapters happen during one of those chapters I just me

ewq1938 said:

Nope, the 7th seal is silence. Trumpets are the opposite of silence.

Click to expand...

The SEVEN TRUMPETS are RELEASED by the Seventh Seal.

Rev. 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And....... I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

The Seventh Seal brings forth the SEVEN TRUMPETS, that is a fact brother.

ewq1938 said:

No. The 7th trump begins a great many events, the second coming, resurrection of the dead and the rapture and lastly the wrath of God contained in the pouring of the vials.The 7th trump completes when the 7th vial is complete and poured etc.

Click to expand...

Nothing begins until the 7th Vial is poured out as per the End Times. The 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe, thus all 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe.

What do you think the 3rd Woe is ?

ewq1938 said:

Rev 11 shows Christ takes over when the trump first sounds, not when the 7th vial is poured but it's the same day but it's always important to get things as accurately as possible.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Click to expand...

Which is why I keep saying, and it doesn't register, that Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9 and 16 are the only REAL TIME EVENTS via these Judgments. The 7th Angel Sounding in Rev. 11 is telling you what WILL HAPPEN when the 3rd Woe COMES and PASSES and the 3rd Woe is ALL SEVEN VIAL....So what you are not comprehending is, the 7th Vial comes to pass via the 7th Trumpet. We are only given the Details in Rev. 16, not in Rev. 11 because that Chapter is no a part of the Chronological order, its about the Two-witnesses ONLY. You are trying to fit it to the Chronological order of things, its not.

The Trumpet Blows and the 3rd Woe COMETH QUICKLY......What happens is the 7 Vials come to pass and you are told Jesus TAKES OVER, but you are not given the DETAILS of what the 7 Vials wrought. That's all.

ewq1938 said:

Those two hours are completely different amounts of time. The one hour is 42 hours but the hour which the plagues come is a much shorter time, likely a real hour or less.

Click to expand...

No they are not, they both stand for 3 1/2 years.

ewq1938 said:

So part of it isn't real time and part is? That doesn't make any sense. It's all real time, the beginning of the battle and the conclusion of that battle.

Click to expand...

No, the parts I pointed out as "Parenthetical Citations" FIT INTO THE Other Chapters. They are REAL EVENTS........But they fit into the Chapters ALREADY SPOKEN OF. You can't have a Chronological Order PART 2.

The Rev. Beast ARISES in the Middle of the Week when the First Seal is Broken. The Woman FLEES Judea when the First Seal is Broken in the Middle of the week. The Two-Witnesses ministry starts BEFORE the First Seal is Broken and then carries on all the way t the 2nd Woe !! The Harvest speaks of the Rapture in Rev. 14:14 and Armageddon at the end of the chapter. Rev. 17 is the Harlot or ALL FALSE RELIGIONS Being Destroyed, when would the Beast and his 10 Kings do this ? At the very start, when Jesus releases him to go forth Conquering, he kills 1.5 to 2 Billion people at that point in time. As Per Rev. 18, the COMMERCE is destroyed which in reality is only the WHOLE WORLD Getting hit by all the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Plagues. So it also starts during the First Seal. This is why God planned EVERYTHING around 1260 Days, in the Middle of the Week.

ewq1938 said:

Same thing from me as well. I am only showing you what I have been given. Accept or reject as you decide is needed.

Click to expand...

Mine fits all the time lines brother, when you see it.

God Bless.....I understand its spooky to see these things, and be given them.

ewq1938 said:

Here are the seven personalized messages from Christ to the seven churches. I have speculated that each Revelation letter only contained the personalized message from Christ to each particular church and that we see all seven now because they were collected at some point so we can read of the message to each church. However, it is certainly possible that John included all seven messages in each letter so that each church could read of the other messages. Either way, there is no specific chronology here other than these letters were mailed out by John in the first century to the existing churches of that time but the messages actually pertained to the end times equivilent of each of the churches. In short, they were delivered in the past but the messages and visions of the future were meant for this last generation to receive and hopefully decipher and understand so they could be prepared when these prophetic events occurred. (my underlining)

Click to expand...

Underlined is spot on. There's more though. At the end of Rev.1 Jesus showed the 7 candlesticks in Heaven John saw are the seven Churches. That means there's a pattern in Heaven for the seven Churches, seven angels assigned to them also. That even more reveals our Lord's Messages to the seven Churches are for all Churches from then all the way to the end of this present world.

ewq1938 said:

Here John is "moved" again and will find himself a bit prior to the Lord's day. This is determined because of the event he witnesses, the opening of the seven seals.



Here we see the Lamb slain receive the book with the seven seals from God the Father. The seven seals will show us glimpses of the future actions that the trumpets signify.

Click to expand...

I might elaborate that only Jesus being able to open the Seals is pointing to Him only revealing the meaning of the Seals to us. We each must go through Him to understand them. Man cannot do it for us.

The seals are not given in chronological order. The seven seals give insight to parts of each of one of the seven trumps. There are not 14 unique things signifying 14 different events as is commonly believed. Each seal represents a trump. The only two I am sure about are the 1st and 6th seal. The 1st seal opened depicts the arrival of the Antichrist, which occurs in the 6th trump and the 6th seal opened depicts the return of Jesus Christ which occurs when the 7th trump sounds. The rest are up for interpretation.

Click to expand...

Also to elaborate, the order of the Rev.6 Seals aligns with the signs our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matt.24 & Mark 13. The first sign was His warning to not allow any man to deceive us. Thus the 1st Seal is about the Antichrist coming on a white horse to mimic Christ's return. There's only 7 main signs Jesus gave. In His Revelation the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are still covering only 7 main signs.

Here we see that the 144,000 elect will be sealed. The "winds" are held back until the sealing is complete. This takes place prior to the tribulation since all of the 144,000 have to be sealed first.

Click to expand...

Might be a little difficult to grasp, but the 144,000 of Israel are in contrast to the "great multitude" of Gentiles. They all represent Christ's Church. The difference with the "great multitude" is simply that John is shown them in a future-forward view with Jesus during the Millennium. With the 144,000 of Israel, only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent the Jews, while the rest are ten lost tribe Israelites ("house of Israel" per Bible history & prophecy). Genesis 49 is prophecy for all 12 tribes in the last days, revealing the continued existence of the ten lost tribes.

ewq1938 said:

Sometime before Christ was born, Satan cast a third of the stars of heaven to the earth. Stars are normally angels in prophecy but whether these are good angels or bad ones I do not know.

Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

I suspect this is the same event. Satan "stamped" upon these stars which implies they are his enemies. Either way, this happened before Christ's birth.

Click to expand...

The revealing on that is how that Rev.12:3-4 event involved a beast kingdom that had ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns. It is not the same as the one in Rev.13 which is to have ten crowns. I don't know how many times I overlooked that small difference, but it's a huge revelation, because it is tied with that timing of old when Satan first rebelled against God. That is when he first drew those stars (angels) to earth with him. When you get to Rev.12:7, it is not an elaboration of that first casting out. Rev.12:7 is about the war in Heaven that is set to occur near the end of this present world, when Satan and his angels will be booted down to the earth into 'our' earthly dimension. That's why Rev.12:8 says then there is no more place found in heaven for him. That aligns with Daniel 12:1 when Michael stands up (i.e., makes a stand), and then there is a time of trouble that has never before happens on earth (i.e., the great tribulation our Lord Jesus warned us about.)

ewq1938 said:

God helps the woman escape. Also contrary to many beliefs, this "flood" is actually more of a "river" in the Greek and is for the woman only and it fails to get to her. Whether it's a flood of lies or something else, it fails. This "river" has nothing at all to do with the tribulation or Noah's flood. This takes place prior to the tribulation.

Click to expand...

The flood metaphor was first used in OT prophets (see Isaiah 28; Isaiah 59; Jer.46; Dan.9:26; Dan.11:22). It is a comparison to the coming in of the Antichrist. The comparison to the flood of Noah's day is linked to Rev.9 about the "five months" (equals 150 days per Hebrew reckoning, which was how long the ark was upon the height of waters of the flood). Per Rev.9, the five months stinging is pointing to lies, because we are told at the end of the chapter the power of the locusts is in their 'mouth'. Words come out of one's mouth. Thus the flood of waters out of the serpent's mouth is about lies, because once again, what comes out of one's mouth? Words.

Revealing Times said:

Its actually pretty simple, an engineer should be able to grasp the simplicity of the math. Oddly, geniuses like Einstein sometimes got stymied by simple math, believe it our not.

The Two-witnesses and the Beast/Little Horn are given identical time periods as per them being in their "OFFICES" on purpose by God. He is all knowing, but its still simple math, I think many overthink it. Both are in their "OFFICES" for 1260 days.

Two- Witnesses Day 1..............................They die at the 2nd Woe = 1260 Days.

..........Beast Conquers Jerusalem Day 1.........................Beast dies at the 7th Vial = 1260 Days.

How anyone can not get that their "OFFICES" do not parallel exactly is beyond me brother, its simple math. The Beast dies AFTER the Two-witnesses die, thus they CAN NOT COME into their "OFFICES" at the same time.

If me and you are elected Mayor of different cities for 4 Years and my 4 year term ends in July of 2022, then my term must have started in July of of 2018. If your four year term ended in March of 2022, then you must have taken office in March of 2018.

The Two-witnesses die BEFORE the Beast dies, their offices thus do not start at the same time, it is an impossibility. We already know via scriptures that their offices will not start at the same time, all we have t do is believe the scripture !!

The Day of the Lord starts with the First Seal..............

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So even those that think the Day of the Lord begins later with the 6th Seal still can't get around this fact it seems, (I think the DOTL starts with the First Seal) the Day of the Lord has to start AFTER the Two-witnesses show up.

The Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem, then rules for 42 Months as the Beast, which means the Two-witnesses have to show up before the Beast starts his rule, because they die before the Beast dies. They die during the 2nd Woe, the Beast dies at the 7th Vial/Armageddon.

Its simple math brother. We can't bend things to fit our own understandings.

Click to expand...

You have several errors in spite of your math. In fact, if we just read the text as is, we don't even need simple arithmetic.

First, many people imagine the two witnesses show up at the beginning of the week and die near the midpoint. Sadly, that is not what a clear understanding of the text shows us.

Where is John, chronologically speaking, in chapter 11:1? Since the exact midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet, John is just before the midpoint.

So what is John telling is in 11:1-2? He is telling us that the man of sin just entered Jerusalem with Gentile armies. How do I know this? I meditated on these scriptures and ask God. It is also common sense: if the man of sin is the enter into the temple in Jerusalem, we both know he must be IN Jerusalem. 11:1-2 shows us His arrival.

The very next thing John saw in the vision is the ARRIVAL of the two witnesses. They JUST arrived, not just finished, their testimony.

All five mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time in Revelation, whether given in days, months or years, are for the LAST HALF of the week.

So the two witnesses suddenly SHOW UP just before the midpoint, testify for 1260 days, which will take them to just before the 7th vial that ends the week. This is simple logic that requires no arithmetic.

What you are missing: 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis! It may at first appear that they die before the 7th trumpet, but a parenthesis has no chronology. John is taking us on a SIDE journey down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only - written as a parenthesis. They die just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. Don't doubt me on this!

Both are in their "OFFICES" for 1260 days.

This may not be true! One count is given in days and another in months. The day count MUST be accurate within a day, but a month count could be off that 1260 by a day. But then it could be exactly 1260 days. My point is, John does not tell us. My main point is, they are parallel days or the very same period of time - but the two witnesses begin a few days before the 42 months of the Beast. In this we are agreeing.

Day 1..............................They die at the 2nd Woe = 1260 Days

WRONG! It may at first appear so, but 11:4 - 11:13 is a parenthesis with NO timing.
THIS is John's chronology:

11:1-2 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint (Man of sin arrives in Jerusalem)
11:3 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint (Two witnesses show up and begin)
11:15 exact midpoint (marked by the 7th trumpet)
12:6 a second or two after the exact midpoint (those in Judea begin to flee)

11:4 - 11:13 is a side journey down the last half of the week with the two witnesses.

The truth then is that they die just before the END of the week.

Beast Conquers Jerusalem Day 1.........................Beast dies at the 7th Vial = 1260 Days.
Sorry, but even this is in error. The beast dies when Jesus comes as in Rev. 19. This is AFTER the week has ended at the 7th vial. There are events that will take place BETWEEN the 7th vial that ends the week, and chapter 19 with His coming. One great event will be the marriage and supper.

We don't know how much chronological time there is between the man of sin arriving in Jerusalem and the arrival of the two witness - and the time the Beast's 42 months begin. John does not tell us, UNLESS it is the 3 1/2 days between the two witnesses beginning their testimony and the 7th trumpet that reveals the Beast. John shows us that the Beast is killed when Jesus comes, and we don't know the time from the 7th vial to His coming - NO ONE knows the hour of His coming.

Perhaps the marriage and supper will take 30 days. It is only a guess.

(No arithmetic needed: only reading the text and believing it!)

Revealing Times said:

True, however 11 starts before 13 does......AND ends afterwards or at the same time....

I was only complaining because I should have waited until to Sunday or Monday to start. I had to get up and go to CHURCH.............LOL.

Click to expand...

I STILL say, ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology or order is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Why do you guys find such a need to rearrange? I can tell you: it is because your "theories" don't fit with what is written!

Why not just start over and develop a theory that FITS?

iamlamad said:

I STILL say, ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology or order is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Why do you guys find such a need to rearrange? I can tell you: it is because your "theories" don't fit with what is written!

Why not just start over and develop a theory that FITS?

Click to expand...

Of course if this is the way it was intended (and it is) then you are just not comprehending it correctly and its throwing everything else off kilter, all because you can't be taught by God once you get an idea in your head, its like an obstacle that God then has to try and overcome to teach you His ways. I see this in a lot of people, I was like that for years myself. Then I understood why the Pharisees couldn't learn from the Great Master Jesus but simple fishermen and tax collectors could.

I wanted to know why God called me to prophecy, but I never got past a certain point, then the Holy Spirit taught me the above lesson and said, lose all your understandings and ASK ME, now things just come out of nowhere because I never rely on OLD UNDERSTANDINGS passed down from men. So when I read that the Saints seen with White Robes on in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of the Great Tribulation, I didn't just say, Oh, they came out of what we call the GREAT TRIBULATION, even though I knew it didn't fit my pre trib rapture understanding, so I QUESTIONED IT as I now QUESTION EVERYTHING, and lo and behold, I understood John was speaking about the 2000 year Church Age Period as the GREAT 2000 YEAR Tribulation. This is how God can teach us, if we let Him. So we aren't rearranging it, you just think we are.

I mean to mean this is 5th grade stuff as per the Chronological order,I knew that it wasn't in order long before I changed the way I look at things. Its just obvious. None of your timeline works, the whole 7th Trumpet thing beyond me, the Middle of the Week is when the 7 Vials start, that just way out there brother.

iamlamad said:

Where is John, chronologically speaking, in chapter 11:1? Since the exact midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet, John is just before the midpoint.

Click to expand...

I don't buy your premise at all, you just take it for granted it seems that you are correct, and all because you think that Rev. 11 is a part of the chronological order. Its not.

iamlamad said:

So what is John telling is in 11:1-2? He is telling us that the man of sin just entered Jerusalem with Gentile armies. How do I know this? I meditated on these scriptures and ask God. It is also common sense: if the man of sin is the enter into the temple in Jerusalem, we both know he must be IN Jerusalem. 11:1-2 shows us His arrival.

Click to expand...

Rev. 11:1-2 has nothing to do with the Anti-Christ per se. Of course it covers most of his rule as the Beast but its not specifically referring to the Beast on Rev. 11.

Rev. 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Most people I do not think come anywhere close to understanding what this actually means. This is a METAPHOR for who the Two-witnesses is to minister unto. MEASURE stands for go unto.......the Two-witnesses are ordered to go unto Israel only, or those that worship in the Temple and at the Alter....Do not go unto (LEAVE OUT THE COURT OUTSIDE) the Gentiles. The Rapture happens before the 70th week, the Gentiles are called during the Church age, but Jesus came ONLY unto the Jews in his ministry, we are thus back in that mode via the Two-witnesses. That is all that scripture means above, its not about the Anti-Christ. God is telling who the Two-witnesses are called to minister unto, nothing more, nothing less.

iamlamad said:

The very next thing John saw in the vision is the ARRIVAL of the two witnesses. They JUST arrived, not just finished, their testimony.

Click to expand...

Of course its giving usthe start of the Two-witnesses ministry, thus the orders who to minister unto.

iamlamad said:

All five mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time in Revelation, whether given in days, months or years, are for the LAST HALF of the week.

Click to expand...

Everyone knows the Last Half of the of the 70th week is 1260 days, and it correlates with the Beasts 42 Month reign and Israel Fleeing Judea for 1260 days, but the Two-witnesses 1260 days do not parallel the Beasts 42 month reign, the Two-witnesses die during the Second (2nd) Woe, the Beast dies at the 7th Vial. Now lets compare those two episodes.

Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

So the Two-witnesses die during the 2nd Woe. But lets remember what the 2nd Woe actually was.

Rev. 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter. 13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. 20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

The 2nd Woe is above, its not really described in Rev. 11, its only vaguely mentioned we are just told that the "Beast" (Scarlet Beast/Apollyon) that came out of the Bottomless Pit (Apollyon) killed the Two-witnesses DURING the 2nd Woe which is above, in Rev. ch. 9. This shows that Rev. 11 is not a part of the Chronological order of Rev. that's why we see the 2nd Woe mentioned again in Rev 11, that should be obvious !! So the Two-witnesses die sometime during the Second Woe. Then in Rev. 11 we are AGAIN given a vague description of the 3rd Woe when it says the 7th Trumpet is sounded, but again we are given NO DETAILS, just like the 2nd Woe is not detailed in Rev. 11 because it not about the Woes, the chapter is about the Two-witnesses ministry from the beginning to the ending.

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

We are told in verse 15 that the Seventh Angel Sounding basically ENDS Satan's Kingdom on earth, but likewise, we are given NO DETAILS of the 3rd Woe, that happens in chapter 16, meaning this is not a real time event. The 2nd Woe happened elsewhere as did the 3rd Woe. We are only given the facts of what the 7th Trumpet brings to pass, we are not given the details, now instead of me boring you with more scriptures, turn to Rev. ch. 16 and see the Vials poured, see the grievous sores that come upon mankind, the WHOLE Sea turns to blood this time and EVERY CREATURE in the sea dies. All the drinking waters turn to blood this time, the Sun scorches mankind with great heat and darkness falls so that they gnaw their tongues for pain.

Then the 6th Vial is poured out and Nations from all over the World are gathered to Armageddon, then Jesus lands as the 7th Vial is poured out.

All this will take time, the Two-witnesses die sometimes DURING the 2nd Woe, they then are raised from the dead, then an Earthquake happens, and the 2nd Woe ends. Then the 3rd Woe begins with the 7th Trumpet. The 7 Vials will take time, the 3 1/2 days many people keeps referencing has already passed before the 7th Trumpet sounds.

In my opinion the 7 Vials take 75 days, I get this from reverse engineering via Dan. ch. 12. Its VERY CLEAR, the Two-witnesses die before the Beast dies and it has nothing to do with the 3 1/2 days because the Two-witnesses are raised up before the 7th Trumpet sounds, thus before the 3rd Woe starts. This means the Two-witnesses HAVE to show up before the Beast does, no ifs and or buts about it. That means that Malachi 4:5-6, where it says Elijah will be sent BEFORE the great and dreadful Day of the Lord is spot on, the Two-witnesses are sent at the 1335 per Daniel 12, which is 75 days before the 1260, and the 1290 is the AoD, and the book of Daniel even says the AoD happens at the 1290, not the 1260 !!

So all of your measurements are off kilter, because you insist the book of Revelation is in Chronological order, even though it isn't.

iamlamad said:

I STILL say, ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology or order is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Why do you guys find such a need to rearrange? I can tell you: it is because your "theories" don't fit with what is written!

Why not just start over and develop a theory that FITS?

Click to expand...

You will have to eat those words some day, when you begin to rightly understand the order of Revelation events.

Personally, I don't see how anyone could think the following happens prior to the later given 7th trumpet and 7th vial:

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb":

17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV