Faith, Works, Righteousness, Justification... Help?

Faith is what saves. However, there are different degrees of faith. Faith that results in a changed life (works) is saving faith. If you believe, but are not moved to love God and neighbor, then you are not saved. James 2:18-19

Valetic said:

Is faith without works dead? Or is faith without works not dead? Or is it both?

Romans 4
(NIV) 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

7“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Genesis 15
(NIV) 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

6Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

James 2
(NIV) 20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.



So let me get this straight, Abraham merely believed in God and it was credited to him as righteousness, and Paul tries to say that we are justified by faith apart from works and James says the opposite about Abraham by jumping all the way to Genesis 22 when he offers up Issac but nowhere in that chapter it's credited to him as righteousness and I don't think there's any cross references to that being credited to him as righteousness other than the book of James when clearly it was before he offered up Issac that he was credited righteousness. HOWEVER, there are two more scriptures that contradicts Paul's theology that faith apart from works is correct.

Numbers 25
(NIV) 6Then an Israelite man brought into the camp a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 7When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear into both of them, right through the Israelite man and into the woman’s stomach. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped

Psalm 106
(NIV) 28They yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor and ate sacrifices offered to lifeless gods;
29they aroused the Lord’s anger by their wicked deeds, and a plague broke out among them.
30But Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was checked.
31This was credited to him as righteousness for endless generations to come.



Can someone clarify what is going on here?

Click to expand...

We are justified by faith alone in Christ. We are born again through faith alone. If we try and get justified through works, we bring a curse upon ourselves because we are effectively denying the finished work of Christ through His crucifixion and resurrection.

But, that faith, having justified us before God and restored the relationship with Him, our lives will change accordingly. We will be doing the works of sanctification, not to be accepted of God which we already are, but to provide a testimony to the world that Jesus changes lives. Through our justification by faith, we are circumcised, not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, in that our renewed spirit is separated from our body of sin. So that when we do sin, it has no connection with our spirit, and therefore does not upset our justification. But sinning will delay our development in sanctification and affect our witness to the world, because they will read us before they read the Bible, and if they don't see a change in us, they will not see that living for Christ is anything special. The thing that impressed the pagans of the first century was that "these Christians, how they love one another!" That's what set them apart and attracted the pagans to hear the gospel message.

The reason why the gospel message often falls on deaf ears is that the neo pagans look at the churches and see the conflicts, arguments, lack of love and respect for each other, and say, "What is so different about them? They are just like us!" And it is true. Church people are their own worst enemy when it comes to presenting a witness to the world that living for Christ makes a difference, because most church people's lives are no different to the neo pagans around them!

If a person refuses to get on the development road of sanctification, we have to ask ourselves whether they are justified in the first place.

So, works comes after justification, not before. We don't do religious and moral works in order to be born again and justified. Good works come as the result of being born again. It comes out of the strong desire of the new heart to serve Christ the best he or she can.

James is not primarily Christian doctrine, rather Tribulation doctrine. James 1:1 tells who it is written to, not the Church. Paul preached our gospel and our gospel is the gospel of the grace of God, which is that Christ died for sinners, was buried and rose again. We are saved by trusting Christ alone. If we want to have close fellowship with the Lord and earn rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ, etc...we must do good works, but good works do not save us or keep us saved. We are kept by HIS power, not our own. Ephesians 2:8-9 is very clear. We must rightly divide the scriptures (2 Tim. 2:15) and understand that not everything in the Bible is written to us directly for doctrine.

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of Yahweh.


It might help be sure by reading 1 Peter.... This can separate those who truly seek Yahweh's Kingdom from those who just want to be comfortable in life, not really honest with Yahweh.

Valetic said:

Can someone clarify what is going on here?

Click to expand...

Valetic said:

What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Click to expand...

One question in order to find how far off your understanding is.
You used this verse above.

My question is, what was it that Abraham believe God about, that it was credited to him as Righteousness?

Valetic said:

Is faith without works dead? Or is faith without works not dead? Or is it both?

Romans 4
(NIV) 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

7“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Genesis 15
(NIV) 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

6Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

James 2
(NIV) 20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.



So let me get this straight, Abraham merely believed in God and it was credited to him as righteousness, and Paul tries to say that we are justified by faith apart from works and James says the opposite about Abraham by jumping all the way to Genesis 22 when he offers up Issac but nowhere in that chapter it's credited to him as righteousness and I don't think there's any cross references to that being credited to him as righteousness other than the book of James when clearly it was before he offered up Issac that he was credited righteousness. HOWEVER, there are two more scriptures that contradicts Paul's theology that faith apart from works is correct.

Numbers 25
(NIV) 6Then an Israelite man brought into the camp a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 7When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear into both of them, right through the Israelite man and into the woman’s stomach. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped

Psalm 106
(NIV) 28They yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor and ate sacrifices offered to lifeless gods;
29they aroused the Lord’s anger by their wicked deeds, and a plague broke out among them.
30But Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was checked.
31This was credited to him as righteousness for endless generations to come.



Can someone clarify what is going on here?

Click to expand...

Regarding Phinehas:

The covenant that God made with Phinehas was a different covenant than the Abrahamic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant was given for the whole world, and fulfilled in the gospel. Note Paul's argument in Galatians.

Gal 3:6-9
Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Regarding the Abrahamic covenant Paul writes:

Gal 3:14-18
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

The covenant with Phinehas was to him personally, not to the nations, and it was after the covenant of the law was established. Thus it's Abraham and not Phinehas who is viewed as the precedent for justification under the New Covenant, which is by faith apart from works.

As for Paul's point in Rom 4

Paul noted that in Gen 15:5 God gave Abraham a promise. Then in Gen 15:6, which Paul quotes in Rom 4:3, Abraham simply believed the promise and was reckoned righteous, there being no intervening work between Gen 15:5 and Gen 15:6, which proves Paul's point that Abraham was justified by faith alone apart from doing any work. And he goes on in the verses that follow that to elaborate on that fact, even saying, "to the man who does not work but trusts (believes) God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Thus if a person is working to be justified, he is disqualified from obtaining justification in this manner, as he rejects the grace of God and fabricates his own way to be saved, much as Paul writes of the Jews, "I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." Rom 10:2-4

Valetic said:

Is faith without works dead? Or is faith without works not dead? Or is it both?

Romans 4
(NIV) 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

7“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Genesis 15
(NIV) 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

6Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

James 2
(NIV) 20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.



So let me get this straight, Abraham merely believed in God and it was credited to him as righteousness, and Paul tries to say that we are justified by faith apart from works and James says the opposite about Abraham by jumping all the way to Genesis 22 when he offers up Issac but nowhere in that chapter it's credited to him as righteousness and I don't think there's any cross references to that being credited to him as righteousness other than the book of James when clearly it was before he offered up Issac that he was credited righteousness. HOWEVER, there are two more scriptures that contradicts Paul's theology that faith apart from works is correct.

Numbers 25
(NIV) 6Then an Israelite man brought into the camp a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 7When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear into both of them, right through the Israelite man and into the woman’s stomach. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped

Psalm 106
(NIV) 28They yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor and ate sacrifices offered to lifeless gods;
29they aroused the Lord’s anger by their wicked deeds, and a plague broke out among them.
30But Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was checked.
31This was credited to him as righteousness for endless generations to come.



Can someone clarify what is going on here?

Click to expand...

If we repent of our sin, I think we will do just fine.

First, we know from Paul’s letters than he and James disagreed. So it’s not impossible that we’d see that kind of difference. However it’s also possible that James is criticizing people who are citing Paul incorrectly.

You seem to be under the impression that Paul is teaching salvation because of belief. Justification isn’t salvation, and faith isn’t belief.

Justification in Paul has two closely related meanings:
* How we know someone is part of God’s people
* How God sets us right with him.
Of course the first is evidence of the second, so you can’t separate these meanings.

The main concern in Romans is Paul’s debate with those who thought that the circumcision was necessary for being a Christian. So some of the discussion isn’t so much how we’re saved as what defines us as Christian. Paul points to Abraham as someone who wasn’t circumcized but was still part of God’s people. In that case justification means primarily the visible way we can tell that someone is part of God’s people.

Note that “pistis” (the Greek word translated faith) has quite a range of meanings, which can include trust and faithfulness. Different people have understood Paul as emphasizing different meanings. Many people think his primary meaning is trust. However in his reference to Abraham, while trust is certain there, it probably also includes some overtones from faithfulness. (When you say to someone “I have faith in you,” you’re not saying “I believe you exist” or that you have specific beliefs about them. You’re saying you trust them. However pistis goes beyond that to faithfulness.)

At any rate, with Abraham, it seems that Paul is using the first meaning of justification. He’s saying that Abraham can be seen to be one of God’s people because of his trust (and probably faithfulness) to God, and not because he complied with the legal demands intended to set Israel apart from the nations. In Paul’ “works” aren’t Christian deeds of charity. He always uses that term to refer to “works of the law,” i.e. the specific legal demands used by the Law to set apart Israel. It’s important to understand works in that sense, because Paul actually cites things Abraham did as evidence of his faith. So he is *not* objecting to works in the broader sense of actions that we do in response to our faith in God.

However in passages such as Rom 4:25, it’s clear that Paul is using justification to refer to how God sets us right with himself. His concept seems to be that faith unites us with Christ, and (see Rom 6) through that union we die to sin and rise to new life. It’s really Christ who saves us, not faith, but faith is important because that’s how we are connected to Christ. In this context “faith” is probably primarily trust in God and dependence on him.

Of course for Paul the purpose of dying to sin and rising to new life is to get us into new life. So loving others and showing it in how we treat them is implicit in this, because that’s what the new life is. This expectation for a real new life is made more explicit in 1 Cor. For that reason James is really attacking people who misunderstand Paul as saying our lives don’t matter. His end goal, after all, is the new life. It’s hard to be sure whether James misunderstands Paul or is attacking people who cite Paul in ways Paul himself wouldn’t approve of.

Righteousness is a whole other issue. I don't want to complicate this too much. Just realize that in Paul righteousness means our right standing before God. It's another form of the same word as justification, and in Romans really means the state of being justified. Justification through faith makes us righteous pretty much by definition, because being justified means being right with God, and that's the same thing (in this context) as righteousness. Paul does *not* say that Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us. He says that our faith is accepted as righteousness, because our faith unites us to Christ.

Cody02 said:

James is not primarily Christian doctrine, rather Tribulation doctrine. James 1:1 tells who it is written to, not the Church. Paul preached our gospel and our gospel is the gospel of the grace of God, which is that Christ died for sinners, was buried and rose again. We are saved by trusting Christ alone. If we want to have close fellowship with the Lord and earn rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ, etc...we must do good works, but good works do not save us or keep us saved. We are kept by HIS power, not our own. Ephesians 2:8-9 is very clear. We must rightly divide the scriptures (2 Tim. 2:15) and understand that not everything in the Bible is written to us directly for doctrine.

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"We must rightly divide the scriptures (2 Tim. 2:15) and understand that not everything in the Bible is written to us directly for doctrine."

Hmmm...I think if you read further in that letter you will find:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 King James Version (KJV)


16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

and You said: "James is not primarily Christian doctrine, rather Tribulation doctrine. James 1:1 tells who it is written to, not the Church"

But James wrote to the Jewish believers... (they were first call Christians at Antioch, remember?)

Valetic said:

Sure but there are denominational splits concerning certain issues such as this. It would make sense then to rightly divide the word and trace history and follow the evidence where it leads, with prayer, to determine what the truth might be. Finding that out might determine what a lot of people end up preaching as a result. Regardless of what it is.

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The truth is simple enough:

[34] But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sad'ducees, they came together.
[35] And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him.
[36] "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." Matt 22:34-40 RSV

Valetic said:

Is faith without works dead? Or is faith without works not dead? Or is it both?

Romans 4
(NIV) 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

7“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Genesis 15
(NIV) 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

6Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

James 2
(NIV) 20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.



So let me get this straight, Abraham merely believed in God and it was credited to him as righteousness, and Paul tries to say that we are justified by faith apart from works and James says the opposite about Abraham by jumping all the way to Genesis 22 when he offers up Issac but nowhere in that chapter it's credited to him as righteousness and I don't think there's any cross references to that being credited to him as righteousness other than the book of James when clearly it was before he offered up Issac that he was credited righteousness. HOWEVER, there are two more scriptures that contradicts Paul's theology that faith apart from works is correct.

Numbers 25
(NIV) 6Then an Israelite man brought into the camp a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 7When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear into both of them, right through the Israelite man and into the woman’s stomach. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped

Psalm 106
(NIV) 28They yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor and ate sacrifices offered to lifeless gods;
29they aroused the Lord’s anger by their wicked deeds, and a plague broke out among them.
30But Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was checked.
31This was credited to him as righteousness for endless generations to come.



Can someone clarify what is going on here?

Click to expand...

Paul was answering the question, "what did I do to merit the salvation of God." The answer to that question is, "you entered into the salvation of God by faith in Christ".

There is nothing a person can do to merit salvation, that is, to enter into salvation. It is not a reward for being a good person, or a reward for keeping the law.

"Abraham believed God........", and so forth, and entered into the grace of God at that moment. Now suppose Abraham had not followed through on his promise. Would he have remained in God's grace?

Paul did not believe in the idea that a person was "saved", only that a person was being saved. Salvation is a lifelong work.