Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

Dave L said:

Quote scripture that says anything about a gap. It would no longer be 70 weeks if there were a gap. But 70 weeks+ however long the gap might be.

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You quote in Daniel 9 the name "Jesus" as the messiah. This is the sort of disjointed reasoning you employ in your arguments, David.

In the text of Daniel 9, it tells you who the 70 weeks are determined on - Daniel's people and Jerusalem. The 70 weeks are determined on them. The have 7 more years to go, which are in Ezekiel 39. And in Revelation 12:6-17.

As soon as you signed onto the church has become Israel theology, you have closed the bible shut... and put a padlock on it, I might add.

Dave L said:

Both resurrections happen on the last day.

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Now if you could only prove the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is not meaning when the dead in Christ shall rise first(1 Thessalonians 4). If you could prove that, that would make your proposal above doable.

Dave L said:

I assume the righteous dead rise first, then the rapture. Then the wicked pass away along with the universe "with a loud noise and fervent heat" as Peter describes. They end up in hell forever.

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I find this reasonable. I'm just glad you are not one of those who take both resurrections to be occurring simultaneously. That conclusion is not reasonable.

Dave L said:

Quote scripture that says anything about a gap. It would no longer be 70 weeks if there were a gap. But 70 weeks+ however long the gap might be.

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Your reasoning is messed up. It is 70 weeks determined on Daniel's people and Jerusalem - it is not 70 weeks in general. It is talking about prophecy time - which that prophecy time has been split, with the gap(s) until the 70th week takes place.

It doesn't say gap in foresight. There is a gap in hindsight. The Jews, use the same type of argument as you - that it doesn't say the messiah comes twice.

But in hindsight, it is known that the messiah will come twice. There is prophecy in the bible pertaining to Jesus first coming. And prophecy in the bible pertaining to Jesus's second coming.
A gap between the two comings. But you don't find the word gap in the text. Look up the word gap in the KJV.

Douggg said:

Your reasoning is messed up. It is 70 weeks determined on Daniel's people and Jerusalem - it is not 70 weeks in general. It is talking about prophecy time - which that prophecy time has been split, with the gap(s) until the 70th week takes place.

It doesn't say gap in foresight. There is a gap in hindsight. The Jews, use the same type of argument as you - that it doesn't say the messiah comes twice.

But in hindsight, it is known that the messiah will come twice. There is prophecy in the bible pertaining to Jesus first coming. And prophecy in the bible pertaining to Jesus's second coming.
A gap between the two comings. But you don't find the word gap in the text. Look up the word gap in the KJV.

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Which verses in Daniel 9:24-27 apply to Jesus' second coming?

Chinchilla said:

Then there is sheep and goat Judgement of who will enter into the 1000 Kingdom .
Then Satan is loosed after 1000 year prison for a season ( we don't know how long )

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Based on the judgment of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:31-46, how many mortals will be left on earth at the end of the passage?

.

Dave L said:

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.

The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.

It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack. (Gary DeMar; “That’s Not in the Bible”)

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

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There are some interesting things to notice that are different about the Rapture (i.e. The Appearing) and the Second Coming.

At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth:

• Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

• John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints:

• Jude 1:14

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.

• Revelation 19:14

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

At the rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

But at the second coming to earth, He is returning from a wedding:

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Dave L said:

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.

The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.

It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack. (Gary DeMar; “That’s Not in the Bible”)

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

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What is another bread crumb or clue that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is true? Well, when we want to verify a truth within God's Word, we know that the Bible testifies of itself by the fact that it repeats the same message or idea over and over thru out the whole of Scripture.

So one came make the parallel that...

1. The Church is sent out to spread the Gospel (Revelation 1)
2. Some in the Church are warned of His Return & Judgment (Revelation 2-3)
3. Rapture of Faithful Church (Revelation 4)
4. Judgment of Daniel's 70th Week Begins that will bring the End (Revelation 6)

In fact, the same parallel can be made with Noah and the Flood, too.

For there were 3 groups of people facing the Judgment of the Flood:

1. Those that perished in the Global Flood.
2. Those that were preserved thru the time of the Global Flood.
3. Those that were removed prior to the Global Flood.

For Enoch was translated before the Flood, right?
And Noah and his family went thru the Judgment of the Flood but were protected by God, right? Sort of like the 144,000 Jewish Christians who will be protected or sealed by God thru the tribulation.

So a Pre-Trib Rapture proves to be Biblical and true not only in straight forward teaching but by paralleling the beginning and ending stories within the Bible, too.

Chinchilla said:

You still do not explain how can saints be overcomed and not overcomed at the same time , dead has nothing to do with it Jesus said :

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I believe it means that the church will be overcome on earth, as in smothered and rejected by the world, but the kingdom of God will never be overcome because it lives in the hearts of believers.

Why do you ask? Do you think there's a contradiction there?

Dave L said:

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.

The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.

It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack. (Gary DeMar; “That’s Not in the Bible”)

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

Click to expand...

Now, the problem with not holding to a Pre-Trib Rapture or not holding to a Rapture of any kind (With a reliance upon just a Second Coming or some other idea) is that Jesus relates a person to someone who thinks the Lord is coming later (rather than at any moment) with that of an evil servant.

"If that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;" ~(Matthew 24:48-49)

So if you are against the Pre-Trib Rapture, then the Lord is not coming now or at any moment but He is delaying His coming to a time you think it says or worse yet, He is not coming at all.

For Matthew continues to say,

"The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder" ~ (Matthew 24:50-51a)

In other words, this passage is saying that the Lord will come in a day or hour when you will not looking for Him. For the moment you ignore His return that could happen at any moment or if you pinpoint a certain period of time of His return and look for Him in that time frame is a direct violation of this verse and others that warn us to be ready at any moment.

In fact, Jesus Christ warned us that if a church does not repent of it's wickedness, it will go thru the great tribulation...

"And unto... the church in Thyatira... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." ~ (Revelation 2:18, 21-22)

How else would an entire church miss out on the great tribulation if they are not Raptured? Will God kill them instead?

Paul had written to Titus and said this to him in his letter...

• Titus 2:13

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

To put it to you another way, Paul believed in looking for the imminent return of His Savior Jesus Christ. If Paul believed he would have had to go thru the tribulation, he would not have said this.

Also, Paul used the words "Last Trump" in Corinthians as a reference to the Jewish "Last Trumpet" of the Feast of Trumpets. The Corinthians at that time would have had no knowledge of John's written Revelation about the Last Trumpet Judgment because it was not written yet. So Paul mentioned a name to something that the Corinthians would have already been familiar with.

Dave L said:

There is no gap in the 70 weeks and Jesus in the middle of the 70th week is not Antichrist. It is blasphemy to say he is.

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I did not say He is - nor did Daniel. You assumed that.
There IS a gap and Daniel wrote it so. Verse 26 IS A GAP. It tells of events BETWEEN the 69 weeks and the 70th week.

Of course you won't believe it until you actually SEE it begin to take place - and you may be so confused then you can't believe what you see. My question is: when Jesus comes pretrib FOR His saints, are you going to be expecting Him.

Dave L said:

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.

The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.

It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack. (Gary DeMar; “That’s Not in the Bible”)

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

Click to expand...

The Rapture:
(The 1st Rapture or Translation of the Saints):

Description of the Rapture:

• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

•1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Clues Concerning the Rapture:

• John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

• Isaiah 26:20 NLT

Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD’s anger has passed.

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

The Dead in Christ Are Taken From Abraham's Bosom By the Rapture:
(Both the Old Testament Saints and Church Age Saints in Abraham's Bosom Are Called to Rise To Meet the Lord in the Air. For in the Rapture: The Dead in Christ Shall Rise First):

• Zechariah 9:11 NIV and 1 Thessalonians 4:16

For... I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit. And with the trump of God... the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Those Who Are Alive in Christ on the Earth Are Then Raptured:
(The Church Age Saints Are Called to Rise To Meet the Lord in the Air. This is Similar to the Translation of Enoch whereby He did Not Die):

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.


Promise of the Rapture:
(A Deliverance of the Wrath to Come):

• 1 Thessalonians 1:10

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

• 1 Thessalonians 5:9

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"


Admonishes about being ready for the Rapture:
(In order to miss out on the 7 Year Tribulation):

• Matthew 24:36-51

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

• Mark 13:32-37

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

• Luke 21:34-36

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

• Revelation 3:10

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

• Luke 12:45-46

But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Jason0047 said:

Now, the problem with not holding to a Pre-Trib Rapture or not holding to a Rapture of any kind (With a reliance upon just a Second Coming or some other idea) is that Jesus relates a person to someone who thinks the Lord is coming later (rather than at any moment) with that of an evil servant.

"If that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;" ~(Matthew 24:48-49)

So if you are against the Pre-Trib Rapture, then the Lord is not coming now or at any moment but He is delaying His coming to a time you think it says or worse yet, He is not coming at all.

For Matthew continues to say,

"The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder" ~ (Matthew 24:50-51a)

In other words, this passage is saying that the Lord will come in a day or hour when you will not looking for Him. For the moment you ignore His return that could happen at any moment or if you pinpoint a certain period of time of His return and look for Him in that time frame is a direct violation of this verse and others that warn us to be ready at any moment.

In fact, Jesus Christ warned us that if a church does not repent of it's wickedness, it will go thru the great tribulation...

"And unto... the church in Thyatira... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." ~ (Revelation 2:18, 21-22)

How else would an entire church miss out on the great tribulation if they are not Raptured? Will God kill them instead?

Paul had written to Titus and said this to him in his letter...

• Titus 2:13

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

To put it to you another way, Paul believed in looking for the imminent return of His Savior Jesus Christ. If Paul believed he would have had to go thru the tribulation, he would not have said this.

Also, Paul used the words "Last Trump" in Corinthians as a reference to the Jewish "Last Trumpet" of the Feast of Trumpets. The Corinthians at that time would have had no knowledge of John's written Revelation about the Last Trumpet Judgment because it was not written yet. So Paul mentioned a name to something that the Corinthians would have already been familiar with.

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Well said!

Dave L said:

Quote scripture that says anything about a gap. It would no longer be 70 weeks if there were a gap. But 70 weeks+ however long the gap might be.

Click to expand...

No! Read it again! It is 69 weeks - then stuff happens - then the 70th week. Daniel put in the gap.

iamlamad said:

Well said!

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Thank you.
Whatever a person wants to call the Rapture is up to them. But Thessalonians clearly mentions how there will be a taking up of those who are alive in the air to meet Christ. I honestly don’t care what a person calls that. But it is a truth within Scripture that they should not deny. It is silly to deny portions of what God’s Word says.

Dave L said:

“Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28–29)

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The pretrib rapture / resurrection will take all those in Christ out of the ground - and it will happen inside seconds, not hours.

Then 7 plus years later on the "last day" the righteous old testament saints will rise, and it will inside of one hour.

Then after a thousand years the rest of the dead will rise, and that resurrection too will happen in less than an hour.

Other verses tell us these separate events will happen in DIFFERENT hours of different weeks, months and years.

iamlamad said:

No! Read it again! It is 69 weeks - then stuff happens - then the 70th week. Daniel put in the gap.

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We can see a gap in time in this prophecy read by Jesus.

Luke 4:17-20 says,
17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down.”

However, there was more to that prophecy In Isaiah. The next words he left out were: “the day of vengeance of our God” (See Isaiah 61).

This is still yet future.