Free Will and the Sovereignty of God

bcbsr said:

I think you have a misconception about what a forum is about. You just shared your opinion. An opinion devoid of any actual scripture. And you criticized my opinion. But apparently from your point of view I'm not allowed to share my opinion or my interpretation of scripture on a Soteriology Forum. Really?

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I didn't say your not allowed, I just said I can't accept your oppinion because it can't be supported by scripture. You understanding of the scriptures is different to mine, so we must agree to disagree.

Dan1988 said:

I didn't say your not allowed, I just said I can't accept your oppinion because it can't be supported by scripture. You understanding of the scriptures is different to mine, so we must agree to disagree.

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I am also going to have to disagree with you. I am not going to say you wrong, I am simply going to tell you to deny yourself continually. As the saying goes, "check yo self before you wreck yo self". All jokes aside, I would say to ask Christ to show you the truth, whether its your side or the other side. But make sure you ask with a heart knowing that you could possibly be wrong, or else you will cover the truth with your pride. That is, IF you are wrong.

I read through all the posts (thoroughly, but quickly) and have not seen you provide any biblical evidence that people having free will to choose the gift of salvation counters God's sovereignty.

God wants willing people, devoid of influence, to choose to have a relationship with Him. Imagine forcing someone to love you. Do you think you'd really enjoy that? Why do you think God let the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? If mans free will is so against God's sovereignty, wouldn't God just take out that tree, or force Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree? Or do you think God forced satan to convince Eve to eat the fruit?

So here is my question that everyone else is asking. Did God create certain people to go to hell? If you say yes, then I cannot discuss with you any further until God shows you how wrong saying "yes" to that question is.

May God bless you richly with truth and peace, whether His truth is what you believe or what others in this thread believe.

joshlete said:

I am also going to have to disagree with you. I am not going to say you wrong, I am simply going to tell you to deny yourself continually. As the saying goes, "check yo self before you wreck yo self". All jokes aside, I would say to ask Christ to show you the truth, whether its your side or the other side. But make sure you ask with a heart knowing that you could possibly be wrong, or else you will cover the truth with your pride. That is, IF you are wrong.

I read through all the posts (thoroughly, but quickly) and have not seen you provide any biblical evidence that people having free will to choose the gift of salvation counters God's sovereignty.

God wants willing people, devoid of influence, to choose to have a relationship with Him. Imagine forcing someone to love you. Do you think you'd really enjoy that? Why do you think God let the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? If mans free will is so against God's sovereignty, wouldn't God just take out that tree, or force Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree? Or do you think God forced satan to convince Eve to eat the fruit?

So here is my question that everyone else is asking. Did God create certain people to go to hell? If you say yes, then I cannot discuss with you any further until God shows you how wrong saying "yes" to that question is.

May God bless you richly with truth and peace, whether His truth is what you believe or what others in this thread believe.

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Please don't hide behind the shield of ignorance, rather face Biblical facts as they are.

God never created anyone to go to hell, they end up in hell because they lived a rebellious life of committing wicked sins and acts of evil. God is obliged to cast such wicked people into hell, because He will not tolerate the filth of sin to pollute heaven.

God gave certain people the gift of faith before they were born, so when they hear the Gospel they respond by believing it while the rest will respond by rejecting it and choosing to rebel and sin against God their whole lives.

https://carm.org/does-regeneration-precede-faith

Part of the difficulty with a topic like this is that there is a wide variance in basic *definitions.*
For example, "sovereignty" just means authority/control/power, but some define it to necessarily mean a meticulous determinate control (a re-definition which actually lessens the sovereign power since it removes any power to delegate or allow limited free action.)

In reality, God's sovereignty is *not* in any way threatened by man's ability to make choices since God created man with that ability, and man cannot make choices outside his own physical and moral limits. (E.g. man cannot fly under his own power, or choose to be perfectly good so as to merit righteousness)

Sovereignty and free will are related in the same way that a sovereign king does not remove the will of his subjects, but does set up boundaries/limits in which they can act. If they disobey, they are punished. The king does not even force the actions of his military or servants, but the soldiers and servants have even stricter discipline and rules binding them than the civilians. If they disobey, they are court-martialed or punished. If they obey and do good service, they are promoted or rewarded. The king also delegates authority; his authority even over his highest ministers to guide, punish, and reward is a mark of his sovereign power.

God as all-sovereign King governs a people that are capable of free volition, within the limits He gives and under His laws.

How does God's supreme sovereignty, in particular, play out?

* He puts boundaries and limits on nature. (Jer 5:22, Job 38:4-41, Job 9:4-9, Ps 104:1-13, Lev 26:3-5, II Chron 7:11-16, Jer 8:7, Jer 10:13)

* He puts boundaries and limits on the life and history of man and the nations (Job 14:5, Acts 17:26, Num 34:1-12, II Chron 13:4-18, I Kings 9:5, Ps 2:1-12, Jer 45:4, Luke 12:25, II Kings 7:1-20, Gen 22:8-14, Isa 45:9-13, Dan 4:34, Dan 2:21)

* He makes provision for nature and man (I Chron 29:12-15, James 1:17, Psalm 84:3, Psalm 104:14-23, Psalm 104:27-30, Psalm 12:5, Matt 6:26)

* He tasks us as His servants to perform His will (Acts 1:8, Rom 12:2, II Cor 10:13-15, Matt 14:13, I Thess 5:12-18, I Pet 2:15, Heb 10:36, I Cor 4:1, Rom 2:13)

* He gives us power to perform His will (Ex 10:1-20, Rev 11:6, Acts 1:8, Heb 11; Phil 2:12-13, Ezra 6:1-12, I Pet 4:10, Mark 16:15-18, Is 45:1-7)

* He sets the standard of righteousness (Rom 1:17, Psalm 18:30, Eph 2:3, Ps 119:3, Deut 32:4, Ps 145:17, Is 5:16, Is 51:6, Dan 9:14, Jer 9:24)

* He punishes the wicked and is the final judge of the fate of man (I Pet 3:10-12, Rev 20:11-15, Isa 13:11, Rom 6:23, Psalm 145:20, Rom 2:6-10, II Thess 2:8)

* He sets the rules by which deliverance, forgiveness, and pardon are obtained (Num 25:22-29, Jer 26:1-6, II Chron 7:14, John 3:16, Heb 10:11-18, Luke 4:14-21, Heb 9:22, Matt 5:29, Isa 45:22-25)

* He makes righteous laws and decrees (Ex 19:12-23, Lev 20:8, Psalm 93:5, Num 23:19, Deut 6:1, Rom 1:32, Rom 5:18, Rom 10:4)

* He appoints others to carry out His decrees [God delegates] (Heb 1:14, Matt 25:14-30, Hab 1:6, Zech 11:16, Amos 6:4, Acts 3:26, Gal 4:6, John 3:31-36, II Chron 18:21, I Kings 14:14, I John 4:10)

*He punishes the servants that do not follow his decrees (Matt 25:24-30, II Pet 2:4-22, Mal 3:17-18, Matt 18:21-35)

* He binds even time and space to submit to His eternal plan (Heb 4:7, Rom 16:25-27, Rom 8:22-25, Rev 21:21, II Pet 3:3-10, I Cor 2:7, I Pet 1:20, Isa 46:9-10, Acts 2:23)

* His kingdom is eternal and cannot be destroyed by man or Satan (Dan 7:13-27, Eph 1:15-23, I Chron 29:10-13, Rev 1:18, II Pet 1:10-11, Ps 145:13, Dan 6:26, Dan 2:44, Matt 6:19-20)

A fine example of authority and willful obedience working together is from Matt 8:5-18.

A centurion approaches Jesus and asks Him to come heal his servant. Jesus asks "shall I (personally) come heal him"? The centurion says no, but asks for "Jesus' word" instead. The centurion is a man under authority (the king, higher officers) but is also over other soldiers. He tells them "Go", and they go. They do not go because they are forced by the centurion, but because they having willingly submitted themselves to the authority of the centurion. As such, the centurion has faith that if Jesus merely commands it, then it will be done (and it is!).

In short: The ability for man to act in obedience under God's commands, or rebel and disobey, or do delegated tasks, is actually a mark of God's supreme sovereign power and of God's authority to set laws and punish. Believing that man has a free will to act and obey or disobey supports God's supreme power and kingship.

[Question: How does God's sovereignty work together with free will?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/17091?ori=167400]


Question: How does God's sovereignty and mankind's free will work together in salvation?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/29254?ori=167400


Question: Is God sovereign or do we have a free will?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/14667?ori=167400]

Dan1988 said:

Please don't hide behind the shield of ignorance, rather face Biblical facts as they are.

God never created anyone to go to hell, they end up in hell because they lived a rebellious life of committing wicked sins and acts of evil. God is obliged to cast such wicked people into hell, because He will not tolerate the filth of sin to pollute heaven.

God gave certain people the gift of faith before they were born, so when they hear the Gospel they respond by believing it while the rest will respond by rejecting it and choosing to rebel and sin against God their whole lives.

https://carm.org/does-regeneration-precede-faith

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Wow I'm sorry if I upset you. I never intended to make you mad at me. Please forgive me.

As for hiding behind a shield of ignorance, pray for me if I really am. But when I see a biblical verse saying that Jesus died for all and that He wishes for none to parish, your idea that He gives only some the blessing to receive the Gospel, that I don't see biblical at all. Please guide me to some helpful verses for such ideas.

But please try to refrain from attacks on me. It will only make the situation worse if you do that with others. I do love you and want to learn from you, I want to be loving brothers with you. Godbless

Another sticky term is 'predestination.' It doesn't help that the English term itself suggests connotations to the reader (destiny) that are not present at all in the Greek.

Predestine in the Greek (proorizó) simple means to "pre-establish boundaries" or to "mark out beforehand." It's a combo of the prefix pró, "before" and horízō, "establish boundaries, limits." So to 'predestine' something is not to choose it's destiny, but it's limits.

Predestination deals with God’s omnipotence. Specifically, this word references how God set limits/boundaries/laws upon everything before creation.

He set the laws of physics, placed the boundaries of the sea, determined the eternal plan by which mankind would be saved, etc (Prov 8:22-31, Eph 1:3-10, Eph 3:10-11, Job 38:33, Rom 8:29, etc).

In the plan of salvation, God also predestined (before time!) it to include the gentiles, not just the Jews (Eph 3:2-6, Rom 3:21-31, Rom 9:1-26, Rom 15:5-13, John 1:11-13, Isa 45:9-10, Rom 9:11-16, etc). God also, before time, predestined that those in Christ (included by faith!) would be adopted as Sons (Eph 1:1-4)

Predestination does not mean nor imply that God decided the specific movement of every person and molecule, but rather that He in His power and wisdom set the rules and limits by which space, time, people, and believers are bound. In regards to man, God set laws regarding sin and righteousness, and the consequence of death for sin. In regards to salvation, God predestined that only Christ was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He predestined that Christ would need to die to cover man’s sin. He predestined that all in Christ, those who believe, would be adopted as sons and made holy (Eph 1; ) etc.

All those in Christ (those with faith) are the 'elect', those predestined to be holy, the people of God joined together under the headship of Christ (1 Peter 2:4-9). We all become part of the elect/the church through faith; and those with faith are made holy; a plan God predestined long before time, Israel, or the law.

Further details and scriptures regarding predestination and God’s sovereign rule can be found here:
https://ebible.com/questions/265-what-is-predestination-is-predestination-biblical#answer-15328
Question: Are we predestined to know Christ?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/19101?ori=167400

Jennifer Rothnie said:

Part of the difficulty with a topic like this is that there is a wide variance in basic *definitions.*
For example, "sovereignty" just means authority/control/power, but some define it to necessarily mean a meticulous determinate control (a re-definition which actually lessens the sovereign power since it removes any power to delegate or allow limited free action.)

In reality, God's sovereignty is *not* in any way threatened by man's ability to make choices since God created man with that ability, and man cannot make choices outside his own physical and moral limits. (E.g. man cannot fly under his own power, or choose to be perfectly good so as to merit righteousness)

Sovereignty and free will are related in the same way that a sovereign king does not remove the will of his subjects, but does set up boundaries/limits in which they can act. If they disobey, they are punished. The king does not even force the actions of his military or servants, but the soldiers and servants have even stricter discipline and rules binding them than the civilians. If they disobey, they are court-martialed or punished. If they obey and do good service, they are promoted or rewarded. The king also delegates authority; his authority even over his highest ministers to guide, punish, and reward is a mark of his sovereign power.

Click to expand...

God sovereignty is absolutely threatened by mans free will, it means that a man can do things outside of Gods control.

God is in control of every single atom in the universe, nothing at all happens unless it's His will.

you can't have a God who is sovereign over all things, then turn around and limit Him to your standards. [Staff edit].

joshlete said:

Wow I'm sorry if I upset you. I never intended to make you mad at me. Please forgive me.

As for hiding behind a shield of ignorance, pray for me if I really am. But when I see a biblical verse saying that Jesus died for all and that He wishes for none to parish, your idea that He gives only some the blessing to receive the Gospel, that I don't see biblical at all. Please guide me to some helpful verses for such ideas.

But please try to refrain from attacks on me. It will only make the situation worse if you do that with others. I do love you and want to learn from you, I want to be loving brothers with you. Godbless

Click to expand...

You didn't have a quick read of the link I provided, that's OK. Let me correct you, Jesus never said He died for the whole world. Yes His atonement was sufficient to cover the sins of the whole world, but He only came to save those which His father gave Him before the foundation of the world.

Please read some martial on predestination and election, you will find it is the must Biblical position of all the views. There are plenty of good debates on sermonaudio.com you can listen to the experts and draw your own conclusion.

I was and Arminian like you for many years, until I actually studied the subject and found that my position was not Biblical. Don't be afraid to step outside of your comfort zone, you won't grow if you don't let go of the milk bottle.

I never attacked you, I challenged you to look at some Biblical truth. That was an act of love, the accused Christ of being a Devil when He told them the truth about themselves.

Jennifer Rothnie said:

Another sticky term is 'predestination.' It doesn't help that the English term itself suggests connotations to the reader (destiny) that are not present at all in the Greek.

Predestine in the Greek (proorizó) simple means to "pre-establish boundaries" or to "mark out beforehand." It's a combo of the prefix pró, "before" and horízō, "establish boundaries, limits." So to 'predestine' something is not to choose it's destiny, but it's limits.

Predestination deals with God’s omnipotence. Specifically, this word references how God set limits/boundaries/laws upon everything before creation.

He set the laws of physics, placed the boundaries of the sea, determined the eternal plan by which mankind would be saved, etc (Prov 8:22-31, Eph 1:3-10, Eph 3:10-11, Job 38:33, Rom 8:29, etc).

In the plan of salvation, God also predestined (before time!) it to include the gentiles, not just the Jews (Eph 3:2-6, Rom 3:21-31, Rom 9:1-26, Rom 15:5-13, John 1:11-13, Isa 45:9-10, Rom 9:11-16, etc). God also, before time, predestined that those in Christ (included by faith!) would be adopted as Sons (Eph 1:1-4)

Predestination does not mean nor imply that God decided the specific movement of every person and molecule, but rather that He in His power and wisdom set the rules and limits by which space, time, people, and believers are bound. In regards to man, God set laws regarding sin and righteousness, and the consequence of death for sin. In regards to salvation, God predestined that only Christ was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He predestined that Christ would need to die to cover man’s sin. He predestined that all in Christ, those who believe, would be adopted as sons and made holy (Eph 1; ) etc.

All those in Christ (those with faith) are the 'elect', those predestined to be holy, the people of God joined together under the headship of Christ (1 Peter 2:4-9). We all become part of the elect/the church through faith; and those with faith are made holy; a plan God predestined long before time, Israel, or the law.

Further details and scriptures regarding predestination and God’s sovereign rule can be found here:
https://ebible.com/questions/265-what-is-predestination-is-predestination-biblical#answer-15328
Question: Are we predestined to know Christ?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/19101?ori=167400

Click to expand...

You can play with words all day, but it will never change the fact that God controls ever atom in the universe so they can only do as God predestined them to do. Nothing has free choice in the universe, everything must do exactly as it was created to do.

Dan1988 said:

God sovereignty is absolutely threatened by mans free will, it means that a man can do things outside of Gods control.

God is in control of every single atom in the universe, nothing at all happens unless it's His will.

you can't have a God who is sovereign over all things, then turn around and limit Him to your standards.

Click to expand...

Why would man's limited will mean man could do anything outside of the realm of God's control? Can man fly on his own power? No, not even if he wills it. Can man be perfectly righteous? No, not even if he wills it since man. Can man sin? Certainly - but God will still use His sovereign power to judge that sin since man disobeyed. Can man have faith? Yes - since God has now revealed Christ and the gospel. It's not 'violating' God's control for man to respond to the gospel in faith. Can man reject faith? Yes - and this too is not a violation of God's control. God will punish those who do not believe.

Think about this. *How* is God in control of every molecule in the universe? Is it because He must personally choose and guide their every motion lest the universe implode? Or is He in control because He set laws and limits as to what they can do and how far they can go?

In the same way, *how* is God in control of man? Is it because He must personally choose and decree every thought and motion of man? (Which would have some serious repercussions for what sin and justice even mean, if so...) Or is God in control because He sets the standard of righteousness, created man to live and act within the boundaries God made for man, and even provided man a way to be redeemed once man fell in the garden by sending His own Son to die?

Which is a mark of a higher sovereign: One that can set natural laws and trust that nature must obey, and even supercede those laws as necessary to ensure His eternal plans? Or one that cannot trust the power of his own word, or has no power in his own word, and so must micromanage and do everything himself?

One of my favorite sermons is Boardman's "Nature a Pledge of Grace." In it he takes a few scientific tangents, and one is about the problem of 'three bodies' which mankind has only recently figured out in the scheme of history. Basically, man has a problem with multiple variables and quickly reaches the limits of what he can understand and predict. Conversely, God has no problem with near-infinite 'bodies' (variables) all acting within their own bounds and limits that God created. The movements of 5 billion stars and 10 trillion choices create no difficulty for Him. Since the possible movements of people and objects in nature are finite (nature can't disobey natural laws, humans have physical and moral limits, etc.) then they are no threat to God's eternal plan. God is all-knowing and the ultimate mathematician. (Furthermore, God knows the choices people will make, so it's not even a surprise as to which direction they go. God doesn't have to 'choose' every specific action of man to ensure His plan continues.)

Dan1988 said:

You didn't have a quick read of the link I provided, that's OK. Let me correct you, Jesus never said He died for the whole world. Yes His atonement was sufficient to cover the sins of the whole world, but He only came to save those which His father gave Him before the foundation of the world.

Please read some martial on predestination and election, you will find it is the must Biblical position of all the views. There are plenty of good debates on sermonaudio.com you can listen to the experts and draw your own conclusion.

I was and Arminian like you for many years, until I actually studied the subject and found that my position was not Biblical. Don't be afraid to step outside of your comfort zone, you won't grow if you don't let go of the milk bottle.

I never attacked you, I challenged you to look at some Biblical truth. That was an act of love, the accused Christ of being a Devil when He told them the truth about themselves.

Click to expand...

Neither the Calvinist (God chooses elect out to get or give faith) nor traditional Arminian (God looks forward in time to see those who have faith) views on predestination/election fit with what scripture says about the topic.

Eph 1 is a critical passage for these terms. In Eph 1:1-14 Paul states that God chose those in Christ (believers) to be holy and predestined those in Christ (believers) to be adopted. It does not state that God predestined anyone to be, or not to be, a believer or to become in Christ!

God also seals those in Christ (the faithful in Christ Jesus whom Paul is addressing) with the Holy Spirit as a down payment of our future inheritance of eternal life.

Predestination deals with God’s omnipotence and omniscience. The word itself (prohorizo) means to “to mark out beforehand’; to pre-establish limits and boundaries. (It has nothing to do with 'destiny' despite the appearance of the English word predestine.) Specifically, this word references how God set limits/boundaries/laws upon everything before creation. He set the laws of physics, placed the boundaries of the sea, determined the eternal plan by which mankind would be saved, (Prov 8:22-31, Eph 1:3-10, Eph 3:10-11, Job 38:33, Rom 8:29, etc), set the rules by which deliverance and pardon are obtained (Num 25:22-29, Jer 26:1-6, II Chron 7:14, John 3:16, Heb 10:11-18, Luke 4:14-21, Heb 9:22, Matt 5:29, Isa 45:22-25), etc.

In the plan of salvation, God also predestined it to include the gentiles, not just the Jews (Eph 3:2-12, Rom 3:21-31, Rom 9:1-26, Rom 15:5-13, John 1:11-13, Isa 45:9-10, Rom 9:11-16, etc). It is this aspect of predestination that Eph 1 deals with in-depth.

God elected a people for Himself, the body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile. (I Pet 2:7-10, II Pet 1:2, Rom 1:1-3, II Tim 2:1-13, etc). His calling this people is by His grace, not by any of our own works (I Pet 2:9-10, Eph 2:8-10, Rom 11:1-6). The Jews thought they alone were the 'Chosen People' of God, and were resistant to the idea of the Gentiles being brought into God's flock as well. In context, Paul is speaking here of how God pre-determined before time that both Jew and Gentiles would be brought into the kingdom of God through Christ; any who would put their hope in Christ (Eph 1:11-14).

The nation of Israel was elect due to God’s own choice (Ezek 16:5-7, Deut 10:15, Isa 45:4). Israel entered the covenant with God to confirm this (Deut 29:9-15), but they still rebelled, and thought salvation was by works and not the promise (Jer 4:22).

While to the Jews it seemed as if God allowing the gentiles in would be changing his mind or contrary to His promise, the offer of salvation to the gentiles had truly been God's plan from the start. Just as God had fore-determined the boundaries and subdivisions of the promised land, so He had fore-determined the purpose, plan, and promises of salvation, the structure and limits of the true church under the headship of Christ (I Pet 1:3-9, Rom 9:6-26, I Pet 2:10).

In similar manner, we didn't chose the way of salvation (God did), nor did we chose our own gifts or ministries (God did). We are, however, to have faith and follow (John 15:16, John 12:25-26).

Eph 1 shows that Christians, both Jew and Gentile, comprise the body of Christ (Col 1:18, I Cor 12:12, Col 3:14-16, Eph 4:14-16). All those in Christ (those with faith) are the 'elect', those predestined to be holy, the people of God joined together under the headship of Christ (1 Peter 2:4-9). We all become included in Christ and part of the elect/the church through faith; and those with faith are made holy; a plan God predestined long before time, Israel, or the law.

God planned this all according to His own council, purpose, and will - not according to any work or wisdom of man, before He created time. Jesus, the lamb slain from the 'foundation of the world' (Rev 13:8, John 1:1), would enter history at the proper time to die for our sins and bring all who believed into His body, the church (Gal 4:3-7, Rom 10:4, Col 1:15-23, I Pet 1:19-20, Eph 1:4, II Tim 1:8-9, John 3:16-18). Then, eternal life will be granted us (our inheritance) at the end of the ages, when all things are fulfilled in Christ and He presents the church to Himself as a radiant bride (Eph 1:9-11, Eph 5:25-33, Titus 1:1).

Jennifer Rothnie said:

Neither the Calvinist (God chooses elect out to get or give faith) nor traditional Arminian (God looks forward in time to see those who have faith) views on predestination/election fit with what scripture says about the topic.

Eph 1 is a critical passage for these terms. In Eph 1:1-14 Paul states that God chose those in Christ (believers) to be holy and predestined those in Christ (believers) to be adopted. It does not state that God predestined anyone to be, or not to be, a believer or to become in Christ!

God also seals those in Christ (the faithful in Christ Jesus whom Paul is addressing) with the Holy Spirit as a down payment of our future inheritance of eternal life.

Predestination deals with God’s omnipotence and omniscience. The word itself (prohorizo) means to “to mark out beforehand’; to pre-establish limits and boundaries. (It has nothing to do with 'destiny' despite the appearance of the English word predestine.) Specifically, this word references how God set limits/boundaries/laws upon everything before creation. He set the laws of physics, placed the boundaries of the sea, determined the eternal plan by which mankind would be saved, (Prov 8:22-31, Eph 1:3-10, Eph 3:10-11, Job 38:33, Rom 8:29, etc), set the rules by which deliverance and pardon are obtained (Num 25:22-29, Jer 26:1-6, II Chron 7:14, John 3:16, Heb 10:11-18, Luke 4:14-21, Heb 9:22, Matt 5:29, Isa 45:22-25), etc.

In the plan of salvation, God also predestined it to include the gentiles, not just the Jews (Eph 3:2-12, Rom 3:21-31, Rom 9:1-26, Rom 15:5-13, John 1:11-13, Isa 45:9-10, Rom 9:11-16, etc). It is this aspect of predestination that Eph 1 deals with in-depth.

God elected a people for Himself, the body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile. (I Pet 2:7-10, II Pet 1:2, Rom 1:1-3, II Tim 2:1-13, etc). His calling this people is by His grace, not by any of our own works (I Pet 2:9-10, Eph 2:8-10, Rom 11:1-6). The Jews thought they alone were the 'Chosen People' of God, and were resistant to the idea of the Gentiles being brought into God's flock as well. In context, Paul is speaking here of how God pre-determined before time that both Jew and Gentiles would be brought into the kingdom of God through Christ; any who would put their hope in Christ (Eph 1:11-14).

The nation of Israel was elect due to God’s own choice (Ezek 16:5-7, Deut 10:15, Isa 45:4). Israel entered the covenant with God to confirm this (Deut 29:9-15), but they still rebelled, and thought salvation was by works and not the promise (Jer 4:22).

While to the Jews it seemed as if God allowing the gentiles in would be changing his mind or contrary to His promise, the offer of salvation to the gentiles had truly been God's plan from the start. Just as God had fore-determined the boundaries and subdivisions of the promised land, so He had fore-determined the purpose, plan, and promises of salvation, the structure and limits of the true church under the headship of Christ (I Pet 1:3-9, Rom 9:6-26, I Pet 2:10).

In similar manner, we didn't chose the way of salvation (God did), nor did we chose our own gifts or ministries (God did). We are, however, to have faith and follow (John 15:16, John 12:25-26).

Eph 1 shows that Christians, both Jew and Gentile, comprise the body of Christ (Col 1:18, I Cor 12:12, Col 3:14-16, Eph 4:14-16). All those in Christ (those with faith) are the 'elect', those predestined to be holy, the people of God joined together under the headship of Christ (1 Peter 2:4-9). We all become included in Christ and part of the elect/the church through faith; and those with faith are made holy; a plan God predestined long before time, Israel, or the law.

God planned this all according to His own council, purpose, and will - not according to any work or wisdom of man, before He created time. Jesus, the lamb slain from the 'foundation of the world' (Rev 13:8, John 1:1), would enter history at the proper time to die for our sins and bring all who believed into His body, the church (Gal 4:3-7, Rom 10:4, Col 1:15-23, I Pet 1:19-20, Eph 1:4, II Tim 1:8-9, John 3:16-18). Then, eternal life will be granted us (our inheritance) at the end of the ages, when all things are fulfilled in Christ and He presents the church to Himself as a radiant bride (Eph 1:9-11, Eph 5:25-33, Titus 1:1).

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Eph 1:1-14 All those In Christ don't miss the meaning here. To be in Christ, means you are already there. You are only responding to what you already believe, "in Christ" means "Elect", Believers, Chosen and the Predestined. It can't be understood any other way.

Dan1988 said:

You didn't have a quick read of the link I provided, that's OK. Let me correct you, Jesus never said He died for the whole world. Yes His atonement was sufficient to cover the sins of the whole world, but He only came to save those which His father gave Him before the foundation of the world.

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"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." Lk 19:10

Are only the elect "lost"? Are the elect even lost? Scripture says the elect are in Christ (Eph 1:1-4) so that would heavily imply the elect are "found." Why would the found elect need saving again, when they have already been saved when they were included in Christ through faith (Eph 1:13)?

"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life." I Tim 1:15-16

Are unbelievers not 'sinners'?

" See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. For indeed the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish." Matt 18:10-14

Is Jesus saying that all children everywhere are automatically elect or automatically saved or will automatically someday believe? Or that all the children in the crowd were guaranteed to become believers when they grew up? No - He is saying that He came to save the lost, which includes the little children everywhere regardless of whether they end up believing or not.

"Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God. Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” Jn 12:42-50

Jesus came as a light to the whole world - but only those who believe will escape the darkness through Christ's light. Jesus came to save the world, but only those who believe/follow the command (to have faith) will get eternal life. The Father's command through Christ is given to all, but many will reject the command to turn in faith and will be condemned for ignoring the words of Christ.

"Indeed the grace of God that bringeth salvation to all men has appeared." Tit 2:11

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." Jn 3:16-18

Etc.

I can find no scripture that specifically states that Jesus *only* died for those God had pre-chosen to save, vs. dying for all so that anyone who believes will be saved.

Dan1988 said:

Eph 1:1-14 All those In Christ don't miss the meaning here. To be in Christ, means you are already there. You are only responding to what you already believe, "in Christ" means "Elect", Believers, Chosen and the Predestined. It can't be understood any other way.

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I fully agree believers are chosen to be made holy (elect) and predestined to be adopted. A believer is part of God's elect holy people (I Pet 2:9.) So believer, in Christ, elect, chosen, and predestined all go together - the last four logically conditional on belief but temporally occuring at the same time we believe (when we unite with Christ's death and God raises us in Christ to new life by the Spirit.)

However, one cannot be elect *before* they are in Christ. Nothing in Eph 1 (or elsewhere in scripture) supports that.

Eph 1 very clearly states how one is "in Christ" - included in Christ when one believes (Eph 1:13) and "faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph 1:1-2) God chose before time that those in Christ (believers) would be made holy and that those in Christ would be adopted as His sons.

Dan1988 said:

You didn't have a quick read of the link I provided, that's OK. Let me correct you, Jesus never said He died for the whole world. Yes His atonement was sufficient to cover the sins of the whole world, but He only came to save those which His father gave Him before the foundation of the world.

Please read some martial on predestination and election, you will find it is the must Biblical position of all the views. There are plenty of good debates on sermonaudio.com you can listen to the experts and draw your own conclusion.

I was and Arminian like you for many years, until I actually studied the subject and found that my position was not Biblical. Don't be afraid to step outside of your comfort zone, you won't grow if you don't let go of the milk bottle.

I never attacked you, I challenged you to look at some Biblical truth. That was an act of love, the accused Christ of being a Devil when He told them the truth about themselves.

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John 1:29, John 3:16, John 4:42, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14, 1 Tim. 4:10

Some verses explaining how Jesus died for all men and for the whole world. I've actually studied this quite a lot. If you are indeed saying all this with love, then I appreciate it. But your choice of words has a lot of evidence of pride. I am in fact not arminian, I kindly ask you, please try not to put labels on me. A little advice, and I try to say this with love in hopes that it might help, be careful with your choice of words when trying to show love to others.