Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

BABerean2 said:

I would rather let John explain it, since he recorded the Book of Revelation.

1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

.

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Yes,totally agree.Thanks for providing these passages.Very enlightening!And who may explain PARTIALLY what is mean by THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS (PLURAL) OF GOD..in the Revelation 14:12 passage.

One question still remain ... The Old Sinai LAWS that the Jews were forced to follow have been made obsolete by the New Covenant ....But that does not mean that under the New Covenant it is permitted to kill ...to steal...

Thus the 10 Commandments are still effective [except maybe the need to keep the Sabbath]....That is the LAWS OF THE OLD SINAI COVENANT WHO HAVE BEEN MADE OBSOLETE.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Include verse 21 though before deciding verse 20 fits with Revelation 20:11-15.

Revelation 16:21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

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No hail is mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15 when the dead are judged, however,
notice that heavy hail that occurs when the dead are judged at the 7th trumpet:
Revelation 11:15,18,19 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings,c peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

DavidPT said:

I don't see Revelation 16:21 fitting with Revelation 20:11-15. And if it can't fit then neither can Revelation 16:20 fit with Revelation 20:11-15.

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After the 7th angel pours out his bowl, God shouts "it is done". This correlates to Jesus shouting it is done after the great white throne judgment:

Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

Revelation 21:5-6 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment

DavidPT said:

As to Revelation 6:14 and Revelation 16:20 describing the same events, no disputes there since I tend to agree.

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Revelation appears to be a series of parallel visions pointing to the same ending, with just different details/points of views given.

Considering Heaven and earth (mountains and islands) depart in revelation 6, the mountains and Islands depart in revelation 16, and the heaven and earth depart in revelation 20, it appears theses are parallel visions of the same thing.

I don't see how literal heaven and earth can depart/flee multiple times before the new heavens and earth come down in revelation 21.

claninja said:

Revelation appears to be a series of parallel visions pointing to the same ending, with just different details/points of views given.

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Do the test :
Read what is said to happen at the opening of the First Seal.

Read what is said to happen at the First Trumpet.

Read what is said to happen during the First Vial.

Do that until you reach the 7 TH Seal ,the 7 Th Trumpet and The 7 Th Vial and you will realize that they are all talking about different events.

The sequence of the events described in the Book of Revelation goes like this:

The events happening at the opening of the 7 Seals will happen before the events described in the 7 Trumpets and the events described in the 7 trumpets will happen before the 7 Vials of the wrath of God.

Riberra said:

Do you know that when you read a Bible passage you need to read the WHOLE text related to that passage.

Obviously the Earth will not be destroyed [The majority of buildings will be destroyed]by the Great Earthquake of the 6Th seal and the survivors will be in total fears ....

So lets see what John saw in the VISION of that future event about the opening of the 6Th SEAL...and if John tell us that there are survivors after the Great Earthquake

Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


As you can see VERSE 15 AND VERSE 16 tell us about the SURVIVORS IN FEARS AND TOTAL PANIC STILL ALIVE ON THE EARTH after the Great Earthquake of the 6TH Seal.

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Survivors after heaven departs and moutains/islands move:
Revelation 6:14-15 and heaven departed like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains

Survivors after the islands flee and mountains no longer found:
Revelation 16:20-21 and every island did flee away, and mountains were not found, 21and great hail (as of talent weight) doth come down out of the heaven upon men, and men did speak evil of God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague is very great.

earthquake , hail occurring at the time the dead are judged
Revelation 11:18-19
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings,c peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.


Revelation 21:25-27 and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there; 26and they shall bring the glory and the honour of the nations into it; 27and there may not at all enter into it any thing defiling and doing abomination, and a lie, but — those written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb.

claninja said:

Survivors after heaven departs and moutains/islands move:
Revelation 6:14-15 and heaven departed like a scroll that is being rolled up,

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The heaven rolled as a scroll refers only to the high atmosphere of the Earth who will be under pressure because of the collision of the Earth with a cloud of Space dust ''The stars falling on the Earth'' Revelation 6:13 will be an extremely big meteor shower caused by the Earth passing through that enormous cloud of space dust.

claninja said:

and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains

Survivors after the islands flee and mountains no longer found:
Revelation 16:20-21 and every island did flee away, and mountains were not found, 21and great hail (as of talent weight) doth come down out of the heaven upon men, and men did speak evil of God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague is very great.

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The earthquake of the 6Th Seal [Revelation 6:12-13 is not the same Earthquake that the earthquake mentioned in Revelation Revelation 16:20-21

Riberra said:

Do the test :
Read what is said to happen at the opening of the First Seal.

Read what is said to happen at the First Trumpet.

Read what is said to happen during the First Vial.

Do that until you reach the 7 TH Seal ,the 7 Th Trumpet and The 7 Th Vial and you will realize that they are all talking about different events.

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I agree that first vial is not the same as the 1st trumpet, which is not the same as the first vial.

Riberra said:

The sequence of the events described in the Book of Revelation goes like this:

The events happening at the opening of the 7 Seals will happen before the events described in the 7 Trumpets and the events described in the 7 trumpets will happen before the 7 Vials of the wrath of God.

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And yet, heaven departs at the 6th seal, as well the mountains and islands move out of place at 6th seal. The mountains and islands also flee at the 7th bowl of wrath.

Riberra said:

The heaven rolled as a scroll refers only to the high atmosphere of the Earth who will be under pressure

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Greek word for heaven in revelation 6:14 is the same as revelation 20:11.

Riberra said:

be an extremely big meteor shower caused by the Earth passing through that enormous cloud of space dust.

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I don’t see scripture for space dust ?

Riberra said:

The earthquake of the 6Th Seal [Revelation 6:12-13 is not the same Earthquake that the earthquake mentioned in Revelation Revelation 16:20-21

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I disagree, considering both passages mention mountains and islands moving

An Explanation of the Sixth Seal:

Revelation 6:12-17;
I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal, – At this moment a Coronal Mass Ejection will explode out from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Jeremiah 23:19 Triggered by the attack onto Israel, as per Psalms 83, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 50:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7

There was a violent earthquake – The microwave effect of the short wave spectrum penetrates the earth’s crust, triggering worldwide earthquakes. Haggai 2:6, Deuteronomy 32:22, Isaiah 26:18-20, Amos 8:8-9, Psalms 18:7

The sun turned black as a funeral pall – The approaching mass of the CME will obscure the sun. Joel 2:31, Amos 5:20

The moon became a red as blood – The reflection of the sun being seven times brighter; the moon as bright as the sun. Isaiah 30:26a
This happens just hours before the main mass strikes, as Joel 2:31 says: before the great and terrible Day of the Lord.....


The stars in the sky fell like ripe figs – All our satellites crash to earth and also there may be a meteor shower. Isaiah 34:4, Isaiah 28:2

The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up – Our magnetosphere and atmosphere facing the sun are pushed aside by this multi billion ton pressure wave of superheated Hydrogen plasma as it strikes the earth. Jeremiah 30:23, Isaiah 34:4, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, Isaiah 51:6

Every mountain and island moved from their place – Tectonic plate movement caused by the microwave effect. Deuteronomy 32:22, Jeremiah 4:23-24, Habakkuk 3:6, Isaiah 13:13 Also, it may cause a magnetic pole shift.

Everyone from high to lowly hid themselves – every person on earth will be terrified by what is coming and they scramble for cover. Ezekiel 7:15-19, Zephaniah 1:3 & 11, Luke 21:25-26

They called out: Hide us from the wrath of the Lamb – People will dive for cover and most will survive, as they see this disaster approaching. The main mass of a CME takes 24 hours to arrive on earth. Isaiah 2:19, Isaiah 28:21-22, Jeremiah 25:38, Luke 23:30

For the great Day of the Lord has come and who can stand? Deuteronomy 32:22, Ezekiel 7:7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Joel 1:15.

This is the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times throughout the Bible, it is this terrible event that enables the establishment of a One World Government. But those who took heed of the warnings, Isaiah 26:20-21, took shelter and at the same time called to the Lord for protection, Acts 2:21, 1 Peter 1:5, Psalms 68:1-3, Joel 2:32 & 3:16 and will receive the great blessings the Lord has for His faithful Christian people.

Riberra said:

The heaven rolled as a scroll refers only to the high atmosphere of the Earth who will be under pressure because of the collision of the Earth with a cloud of Space dust ''The stars falling on the Earth'' Revelation 6:13 will be an extremely big meteor shower caused by the Earth passing through that enormous cloud of space dust.

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Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?




and the stars shall fall from heaven(Matthew 24:29)------And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth(Revelation 6:13)

Does it really seem reasonable that these are not meaning the same events? Does it really seem reasonable that these events depicted here happen two different times, and at two totally different times? Matthew 24 places this event after the GT, but prior to the 2nd coming. So why wouldn't that be the same place the 6th seal places this event, that according to Matthew 24?

claninja said:

After the 7th angel pours out his bowl, God shouts "it is done". This correlates to Jesus shouting it is done after the great white throne judgment:

Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

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It seems to me that that interpretation is a contradiction then. Everyone at the great white throne judgment are physically dead then raised to life again.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Look what all occurs AFTER there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. Verse 18-21 is then fulfilled. Obviously these people are still physically alive when these things happen upon the earth and upon them. How can the great white throne judgment precede their physical deaths? The great white throne judgment couldn't possibly be in view in Revelation 16.

claninja said:

Greek word for heaven in revelation 6:14 is the same as revelation 20:11.

I don’t see scripture for space dust ?

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The stars falling on the Earth Revelation 6:13....have you ever seen a meteor shower?Do you know that a meteor shower are space dust burning in the atmosphere ?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/sea...018/04/17112455/meteorshower.jpg&action=click

claninja said:

I disagree, considering both passages mention mountains and islands moving

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At the 6Th Seal the islands and the mountains are MOVED by few inches.

In Revelation 16:20 THEY ARE NOT FOUND.

keras said:

The stars in the sky fell like ripe figs – All our satellites crash to earth and also there may be a meteor shower. Isaiah 34:4, Isaiah 28:2

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This very well could explain it, yet I don't know if it does or not. So even if satellites crash to the earth, let's not forget what Jesus said in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Notice where Jesus clearly places the timing of the stars falling from heaven.

DavidPT said:

Does it really seem reasonable that these are not meaning the same events? Does it really seem reasonable that these events depicted here happen two different times, and at two totally different times? Matthew 24 places this event after the GT, but prior to the 2nd coming. So why wouldn't that be the same place the 6th seal places this event, that according to Matthew 24?

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Matthew 24:29-31 is plainly about the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. The sky will be darkened and meteors will fall again, at that time.
The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster is the 'Noah's Flood' event for our times. The reset of our civilization.
Note the time gap of the Seventh Seal, of 'about 20 years' until the Return.

The proof of the Lord using a CME on His Day of wrath, is clear from the over 100 prophesies about that Day, a literal 24 hour day, being literally fulfilled by a sun explosion. Nothing else could do it all.

Riberra said:

The stars falling on the Earth....have you ever seen a meteor shower?Do you know that a meteor shower are space dust burning in the atmosphere ?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/sea...018/04/17112455/meteorshower.jpg&action=click

At the 6Th Seal the islands and the mountains are MOVED by few inches.

In Revelation 16:20 THEY ARE NOT FOUND.

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Speaking for myself, I am PostTrib Premil. By me concluding the 6th seal involves the 2nd coming, I'm not seeing how that might somehow contradict Post Trib nor Premil. I'm not certain why you need the 6th seal to not involve the 2nd coming?

keras said:

meteors will fall again, at that time.

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What is the Greek word typically used for 'again'?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

and the stars shall fall from heaven. I don't see where the text instead states----and the stars shall fall from heaven again.

Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And the stars of heaven shall fall. I don't see where the text instead states----And the stars of heaven shall fall again.

It therefore appears to me you are adding things to the texts not stated in the texts. Jesus never stated anything about 'again' in those above passages.

Riberra said:

Yes,totally agree.Thanks for providing these passages.Very enlightening!And who may explain PARTIALLY what is mean by THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS (PLURAL) OF GOD..in the Revelation 14:12 passage.

One question still remain ... The Old Sinai LAWS that the Jews were forced to follow have been made obsolete by the New Covenant ....But that does not mean that under the New Covenant it is permitted to kill ...to steal...

Thus the 10 Commandments are still effective [except maybe the need to keep the Sabbath]....That is the LAWS OF THE OLD SINAI COVENANT WHO HAVE BEEN MADE OBSOLETE.

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I agree with you.

However, remember that the New Covenant is a higher standard of conduct, based on the words of Christ found below.

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.


The Apostle Paul told the Corinthian church to not even eat with a man who was in an inappropriate relationship with a woman.

.

Riberra said:

At the 6Th Seal the islands and the mountains are MOVED by few inches.

In Revelation 16:20 THEY ARE NOT FOUND.

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Where did you get a Bible that has the word "inches" in it?

Is it the "Riberra" translation? Would that be the NRV, the New Riberra Version?

Rev 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

You know I love you, Brother...

(CJB) The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

(ESV) The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

(Geneva) And heauen departed away, as a scroule, when it is rolled, and euery mountaine and yle were mooued out of their places.

(Greek NT TR) και ουρανος απεχωρισθη ως βιβλιον ειλισσομενον και παν ορος και νησος εκ των τοπων αυτων εκινηθησαν

(GW) The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up. Every mountain and island was moved from its place.

(LITV-TSP) And the heaven departed like a scroll being rolled up. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

(KJV) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

(KJV+) AndG2532 the heavenG3772 departedG673 asG5613 a scrollG975 when it is rolled together;G1507 andG2532 everyG3956 mountainG3735 andG2532 islandG3520 were movedG2795 out ofG1537 theirG848 places.G5117

(NKJV) Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

(YLT) and heaven departed as a scroll rolled up, and every mountain and island—out of their places they were moved;

.

DavidPT said:

Speaking for myself, I am PostTrib Premil. By me concluding the 6th seal involves the 2nd coming, I'm not seeing how that might somehow contradict Post Trib nor Premil. I'm not certain why you need the 6th seal to not involve the 2nd coming?

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Because the Book of Revelation say clearly that the Coming Of Jesus will happen when the Kings and their armies will be ALL gathered at Armageddon.

Revelation 16:14-16
14 for they are spirits of demons, working signs; which go forth unto the kings of the whole world, to gather them together unto the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.

16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

BABerean2 said:

Where did you get a Bible that has the word "inches" in it?

Is it the "Riberra" translation? Would that be the NRV, the New Riberra Version?

Rev 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

You know I love you, Brother...

(CJB) The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.


(NKJV) Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
.

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Do you agree that the Mountains and Island MOVED OUT OF THEIR PLACE AT THE 6TH SEAL--- --IS DIFFERENT THAT NOT FOUND AT ALL in Revelation 16:20?

I have provided the proof that the Japan Island have been moved out of its place by 8 feet by an earthquake few years ago [GPS Stations and Satellite Image]...and we can still found the Japan Island.

You who have teach geology will surely enjoy the following:
Quake moved Japan coast 8 feet, shifted Earth's axis
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.earthquake.tsunami.earth/index.html

DavidPT said:

It seems to me that that interpretation is a contradiction then. Everyone at the great white throne judgment are physically dead then raised to life again.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Look what all occurs AFTER there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. Verse 18-21 is then fulfilled. Obviously these people are still physically alive when these things happen upon the earth and upon them. How can the great white throne judgment precede their physical deaths? The great white throne judgment couldn't possibly be in view in Revelation 16.

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For a preterist, it is not a contradiction.

However, from a futurist perspective, we have a couple contradictions:
1.) how can the great white throne judgment precede physical death?
2.) how can heaven, the mountains, and the islands depart/flee at the 6th seal and 7th vial before heaven and earth flee from the great white throne?
3.) If God's wrath is finished at the 7th vial (revelation 15:1), which is not the GWT judgment, how can there be more wrath after the 7th vial?
4.) why is there an earthquake and hail after the dead are judged in revelation 11:18-19?
5.) How can "it is done" be fulfilled twice?
6.) who are the nations and kings living outside the new Jerusalem (revelation 21:22-27)?