WHY GOD CREATED EVIL !!!

JESUS AND THE GENOCIDE LAWS OF MOSES - Santo Calarco. Part 3 continued..

Here it comes down to our approach to Scripture. Jesus is by no means a legalist, and therefore sees no problem with breaking particular commands so long as people's needs and love are being promoted.

Doing this is how Jesus understood the fulfillment of Torah. The Pharisees in contrast had an approach to Scripture that assumed that the law should be kept, and that even if people seem to be hurt by this, Scripture should still be put first.

Jesus made it clear that things like mercy are the weightier matters of the law. Although the law prescribed sacrifice, Jesus made it clear that the same Old Testament said that God desires mercy not sacrifice!

Human need transcends law. The law itself contains restorative laws that transcend retributive laws.

Having said this I will focus now on the genocide laws in the law of Moses.

So what relevance does this have to the genocide violent laws of the Old Testament?

Having laid down this foundation let’s go a little deeper.

Let’s consider the attitude of Jesus towards divorce laws in the Old Testament.

In Matthew 19, Jesus was in debate with the Pharisees over the divorce laws recorded in Deuteronomy 24. In the laws of Moses.

The Pharisees said that Moses commanded these laws… Moses!

And Jesus agreed that Moses was the author of these laws … Not God!

Notice the way Jesus clearly distinguishes between what Moses said and what God said in contrast at the beginning.

Matthew 19:8,4
He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
God who created them from the beginning made them male and female, SAID.

Jesus pits what God said against what Moses said!

Jesus is clearly saying that God was not the author of Deuteronomy 24 but Moses was!

Moses said one thing BUT God said said something else!!

And more…

Jesus said that this law was given as a direct result of the people’s hard heart…

Now here is the very interesting part for me…

Deuteronomy 24 is a part and parcel of a body of laws that start in chapter 11 and goes right to the end of the book!

Deuteronomy 24 is part of one body of unified laws.

My point is this: Since chapter 24 did not originate with God as far as Jesus is concerned… And since it is part of a unified large body of literature starting in chapter 11…

And since this one body of laws includes the genocide passage of Deuteronomy 20…

It is very safe to conclude based on the words of Jesus that all of this violent stuff attributed to God by Moses originated with…

Moses and not God!

This is further substantiated in Matthew 5:38-39 where Jesus quotes from Deuteronomy 19:21 and negates what Moses has written…

“You have heard it said An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth but I say to you do not!”

Don’t forget that Moses said that all the laws he gave in Deuteronomy came from God and here again Jesus pits what he says against Moses.

In Acts 15 we find the church at Jerusalem in Council…

The subject was the law of Moses… Moses! See verses one through to 6.

The Apostles made the following conclusion about the law of Moses…

Acts 15:10
Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

The Laws of Moses put God to the test!

Again Moses is pitted against God!

So it’s clear that not only Jesus and the early church but also the Pharisees saw that God was not the author of the laws of Moses!

These laws included slavery laws and genocide laws… And we can see that God was not the author!

Bottom line… Jesus negated any laws from Moses that were violent or retributive or did not respect human worth and dignity.

Let’s return to my original question. Did Jesus address the genocide laws of Moses in particular?

I think he did.

What most don’t realize is that Jesus referred directly to the introduction of the genocide laws of Moses. Twice.

Notice the verse introducing the genocide laws in Moses.

Deuteronomy 19:21-20:1,10-14
21 Your eye shall not pity. It shall be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
1 "When you go out to war against your enemies, and see horses and chariots and an army larger than your own, you shall not be afraid of them, for the LORD your God is with you, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt.

10 When you approach a city to wage war against it, offer it terms of peace. 11 If it accepts your terms and submits to you, all the people found in it will become your slaves. 12 If it does not accept terms of peace but makes war with you, then you are to lay siege to it. 13 The Lord your God will deliver it over to you and you must KILL EVERY SINGLE MALE BY THE SWORD. 14 However, the women, little children, cattle, and anything else in the city—all its plunder—you may take for yourselves as spoil. You may take from your enemies the plunder that the Lord your God has given you.

So there we have it!

Jesus commented directly on the violent genocide passsges in the law of Moses.

An eye for an eye with the introductory statement of the genocide passages in the law of Moses.

And Jesus negated that whole system of violence and retaliation.

He said “DO NOT!!”

He says that genocide and violence have no part in the kingdom.

Instead of killing our enemies Jesus says

Matthew 5:38-45
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Oops!

Looks like God never killed enemies. He only ever blessed them.

Conclusion?

Jesus distinguished between differing aspects contained within the law of Moses. Aspects of law that were violent and retributive were negated by Jesus. Those aspects of law that were in harmony with restorative kingdom righteousness, Jesus upheld and deepened. This is what Jesus meant by fulfilling the law.

Jesus said that God did not command the divorce or genocide laws. Jesus did not attribute everything Moses said to God - even though Moses may have believed differently. Even the Pharisees referred to these laws as the law of Moses!

Jesus calls his followers to enemy love - not genocide.

Knowing the difference between restorative and retributive justice and righteousness is to understand the way of the kingdom of Jesus and his attitude to the Law.

So did Jesus break the law? Yes and no!

Jesus broke retributive aspects of the law to uphold and magnify restorative laws.

Yikes! your about to get into all kinds of trouble for those posts hugs, I know because it happens to me every time I post on things like that. So I might as well jump in and add to your posts from my own studies on these matters.


According to the Jewish study Bible pages 1835 & 1838



The Jews interpreted scripture by using scripture, thus they turned the scripture over and over to find new truths from examining the scriptures and reordering the old scriptures. Thus when they came upon problem scriptures they would translate those scripture according to their own interpretation and took sides in theological and legal controversies, expanded the narrative and legal material all the while purporting to merely convey the meaning of the text they translated.



Thus in ancient times it was the responsibility of the translator not to only translate the text, but to render it comprehensible to those who could not read the sacred writing themselves. Thus many of their interpretation of the scripture became a part of the scriptures









Which bring me to the topic of the Lying pen of the scribes



Let me start by saying that all scripture is inspired by God but not everything in our bibles is scripture.



A few examples:

Jeremiah 8:8 speaks about the lying pen of the scribes adding to the Law of Moses.



Written in the book of the Law of Moses we read

Numbers 30:2

2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.



Deuteronomy 23:21

21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.





However, according to Jesus we are not to swear at all, but let our communication be yea, yea, or nay, nay.

Matthew 5:33-37

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.



Jesus’ words are a total contradiction to what is written in Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21.



A couple of things to take note of in what Jesus says in Matthew 5:33-37.



First, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.



Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead of it is written to show us that the law of forswearing comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.



Secondly, some people have tried to tell me that this is only to show the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. However, if this is the case then God changed His mind about what He wants from us and if God changes His mind about what He wants from us then His word is not steadfast. And if Gods word is not steadfast what assurances do we have that God will not change His mind again and again?



Thirdly, Jesus says whatsoever is more then yea and nay cometh from EVIL. So if forswearing ourselves came from God as Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21 suggest then Jesus would be saying God is EVIL or what God speaks is EVIL.



So we are left with a choice, we can either believe God changes His mind concerning what He wants from us, making His word not steadfast, or we can believe what Jeremiah stated in 8:8 that the lying pen of the Scribes have changed Gods laws into lies.



We see this same lying pen of the Scribe in the horrendous eye for an eye doctrine that the Scribes attributed to Moses in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21



Exodus 21:22-24

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Leviticus 24:19-20

19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.

Deuteronomy 19:21

21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.



But Jesus says that ye resist not evil.



Matthew 5:38-42

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.



Jesus’ words again are in total contradiction to what is written in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21.





Take note of what Jesus says in Matthew 5:38-42



Again, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.



And again, Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead of it is written to show us that the law of an eye for an eye comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.



Matthew 5:43-45

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.



Take note that again Jesus uses the same manner of speech, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said. Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Oh, oh Houston we have a problem.

Nowhere is it stated in the bible that we are to hate our enemy.

Did Jesus make a blunder when he said you have heard that it hath been said?

NO, absolutely, NO, Jesus did not blunder when he said this.

So what is going on?

Everything else Jesus referenced in these sets of scripture is found written somewhere in the Law of Moses being an addition by the lying pen of the Scribes, but attributed to Moses. So why do we not find the term hate thine enemy also recorded?

Most probably, because the scribes deleted it from their writings after Jesus said love your enemies.

No matter how one looks at it, forswearing, eye for an eye and hate thine enemy are a total contradiction to what Jesus tells us.

We read in Revelation a warning to anyone who would add to or take away from the prophesy of the book of Revelation. Now if God saw fit to put this warning in that book is it not obvious He knew that people would be tempted to do just that?



Just because God does not want people to do something does not mean people won’t do it.



And history proves that man has tampered with the scripture.



Witness 1Jn.5:7



Witness Mk.16:9-20



Neither of which are in the oldest and best manuscripts.



Both are an interpolation; added to scripture at a later date.



Some might not like it but those are the FACTS.



Some people have told me that the bible is the word of God and everything in it is of Him and by Him and that He most surely could have protected it all through history.

First let me say there is only ONE WORD OF GOD, that being Jesus Christ and everything that proceeds from His mouth. Therefore the bible cannot be the word of God as history and scripture shows man has tampered with it, adding to it and taking away from it.

Are you getting the picture? Not everything in our bibles is inspired by God or scripture. Man has tampered so much with the scriptures, adding and taking away from them, that the bibles today bring in much confusion. My suggestion to you and everyone else is to take every thought (especially the thoughts recorded in the bible) captive to Christ and see what He says about them.





Some people ask concerning some of the things they have read in the bible concerning the OT.

Things such as God commanding the killings of innocent men, women and children.

Well there are 3 outlooks on this; one is abhorrent, the other 2 are most probable.

1 God actually commanded people to do these things (this is the abhorrent one)

2 People misunderstood what God was actually saying and literally did what He was saying when He was speaking spiritually.

3 The lying pen of the scribes added to the scriptures saying God said such and such when God never said anything of the kind.

We read is scripture

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. 23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: 24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them

We also read

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

What people believe about God is what they write about Him, it does not make what they believe and write true. Only that which Jesus states about God is true and right, all others write under a vail of ignorance.



And the reason people see our kind loving Father in a bad light is because people still see God as portrayed though the eyes of ignorant, unenlightened men who wrote under a veil of darkness and did not know the Father. And because people insist on listening to the lying pen of the scribes instead of listening to what Jesus says of the Father.



On the mount of transfiguration Peter, James and John wanted to build 3 tabernacles. One for Moses, one for Elijah and one for Jesus. God said not so, He (speaking of Jesus) is my beloved son HEAR HIM. People are still listening to Moses and Elijah, men who were under the vail of ignorance and did not really know the Father.



Yes they knew the Father but did not fully know the Father, only Jesus and those He revealed the Father to know and understand the Father.

So did God really command people to kill innocent women and children as recorded in the OT? (this is the view held by most)

Or

Did Moses misunderstand what God was saying and did literally, what God meant spiritually?

Example: God commanded Moses to kill all his enemies, innocent men, women and children.

Now there are two ways one can kill their enemies, one by literally killing them; the other by making their enemies their friends thereby in effect killing their enemies.

Moses, misunderstanding God literally killed his enemies, thinking to do God a service, when God all along only meant for Moses to make his enemies his friends thereby killing his enemies.

Or

Did the lying pen of the scribes add to the scriptures and state God commanded the killings after the fact to justify themselves in killing men , women and children.

What MUST always be taken into account is God commanded THOU SHALT NOT KILL, He would not then change His mind and command killing contrary to His own command. God is steadfast and all He commands is steadfast. So we must learn to listen to HIM, Jesus Christ and those Christ revealed the Father too and STOP listening to those who think they know God.



There are tares among the wheat of God’s word written in the bibles, and as we listen to Christ the vail of ignorance is lifted and the tares are removed and we have the pure undefiled word of God written in the bible.



So where did some of these laws come from that the lying pen of the scribes added to the law of Moses and attributed to Moses? They came about when Israel was held captive by Babylon as can be clearly seen in the horrendous eye for and eye law.





The Babylonian Code of Hammurabi was written 200+ years before Moses wrote the law



The law of an eye for an eye comes from the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi

196



If a man put out the eye of another man, his eye shall be put out. [ An eye for an eye ]



Now you know where the lying pen of the scribes stole the law an eye for an eye from, adding it to the Laws of Moses and attributed it to Moses.

Pneuma3 said:

Yikes! your about to get into all kinds of trouble for those posts hugs, I know because it happens to me every time I post on things like that. So I might as well jump in and add to your posts from my own studies on these matters.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much!!! I knew i would be in need of rescue after posting that guy's essay hahaha... but what i posted does sort of explain why statues of Moses have HORNS on them haha

i have actually heard that scribes added things in, i heard that all that sexist stuff Paul said was an aside note by the scribes that got added in to scripture...

and are you JOKING??? the great commission wasn't supposed to be there???? wow!!!

and as far as 1 John 5:7 did you ever look that up here:
https://www.biblestudytools.com/1-john/5-7-compare.html
it is very very obvious that scripture has been tampered with, many times, but the ones that look weird are the ones where it appears stuff was TAKEN AWAY, not added... i still believe in the trinity.

either way, whether Moses was misinterpretting God, and Moses' laws aren't God's laws, and there are lying pens of scribes... well... i feel a whole lot better about it all now...

i don't mind the essay i posted, it actually sounds right to me... and i care about what God settles in my heart as truth and rest, more than i care about angry Christians lol... i think we are in end times, and the love of MANY Christians has grown VERY cold, so i just don't listen to those kinds of people... it's 'the wrong spirit'

thank you, my friend, for helping me... i knew it was a big risk to post that essay, it was so long it took 3 posts lol

needhugs said:

we all know that every little kid reaches an age where they separate themselves psychologically from their parents, and this usually involves disrespect, so the only way this could have been avoided in those days was for the child to hide it...

Click to expand...

it was more than a "little" disrespect that they were to be stoned for.Maybe we'd be better off today if some of those serial killers were "stoned to death" before they were able to commit those atrocities that they would commit. Maybe God knew something that we didn't. And "every" little kid does not disrespect their parents as you suggest. I suspect it has a lot to do with how they are raised.

needhugs said:

the culture that God was angry about sacrificing babies was Israel

Click to expand...

https://www.gotquestions.org/who-Molech.html

needhugs said:

the adulteress that didn't get stoned didn't ask for forgiveness, but Jesus said 'neither do I condemn you'

Click to expand...

Jesus was condemning the hypocritical Pharisees who wanted to stone her when they probably were doing the same things they were condemning her for. After Jesus saved her, He did say "sin no more" and I doubt she did after that.

needhugs said:

i'm simply asking a question about what is written in the Bible, i'm not 'wanting' there to be a contradiction, and i don't accept answers from judgmental and unkind people.

Click to expand...

You seem to be the one who's being judgemental.

Pneuma3 said:

Yikes! your about to get into all kinds of trouble for those posts hugs, I know because it happens to me every time I post on things like that. So I might as well jump in and add to your posts from my own studies on these matters.


According to the Jewish study Bible pages 1835 & 1838



The Jews interpreted scripture by using scripture, thus they turned the scripture over and over to find new truths from examining the scriptures and reordering the old scriptures. Thus when they came upon problem scriptures they would translate those scripture according to their own interpretation and took sides in theological and legal controversies, expanded the narrative and legal material all the while purporting to merely convey the meaning of the text they translated.



Thus in ancient times it was the responsibility of the translator not to only translate the text, but to render it comprehensible to those who could not read the sacred writing themselves. Thus many of their interpretation of the scripture became a part of the scriptures









Which bring me to the topic of the Lying pen of the scribes



Let me start by saying that all scripture is inspired by God but not everything in our bibles is scripture.



A few examples:

Jeremiah 8:8 speaks about the lying pen of the scribes adding to the Law of Moses.



Written in the book of the Law of Moses we read

Numbers 30:2

2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.



Deuteronomy 23:21

21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.





However, according to Jesus we are not to swear at all, but let our communication be yea, yea, or nay, nay.

Matthew 5:33-37

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.



Jesus’ words are a total contradiction to what is written in Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21.



A couple of things to take note of in what Jesus says in Matthew 5:33-37.



First, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.



Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead of it is written to show us that the law of forswearing comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.



Secondly, some people have tried to tell me that this is only to show the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. However, if this is the case then God changed His mind about what He wants from us and if God changes His mind about what He wants from us then His word is not steadfast. And if Gods word is not steadfast what assurances do we have that God will not change His mind again and again?



Thirdly, Jesus says whatsoever is more then yea and nay cometh from EVIL. So if forswearing ourselves came from God as Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21 suggest then Jesus would be saying God is EVIL or what God speaks is EVIL.



So we are left with a choice, we can either believe God changes His mind concerning what He wants from us, making His word not steadfast, or we can believe what Jeremiah stated in 8:8 that the lying pen of the Scribes have changed Gods laws into lies.



We see this same lying pen of the Scribe in the horrendous eye for an eye doctrine that the Scribes attributed to Moses in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21



Exodus 21:22-24

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Leviticus 24:19-20

19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.

Deuteronomy 19:21

21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.



But Jesus says that ye resist not evil.



Matthew 5:38-42

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.



Jesus’ words again are in total contradiction to what is written in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21.





Take note of what Jesus says in Matthew 5:38-42



Again, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.



And again, Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead of it is written to show us that the law of an eye for an eye comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.



Matthew 5:43-45

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.



Take note that again Jesus uses the same manner of speech, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said. Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Oh, oh Houston we have a problem.

Nowhere is it stated in the bible that we are to hate our enemy.

Did Jesus make a blunder when he said you have heard that it hath been said?

NO, absolutely, NO, Jesus did not blunder when he said this.

So what is going on?

Everything else Jesus referenced in these sets of scripture is found written somewhere in the Law of Moses being an addition by the lying pen of the Scribes, but attributed to Moses. So why do we not find the term hate thine enemy also recorded?

Most probably, because the scribes deleted it from their writings after Jesus said love your enemies.

No matter how one looks at it, forswearing, eye for an eye and hate thine enemy are a total contradiction to what Jesus tells us.

We read in Revelation a warning to anyone who would add to or take away from the prophesy of the book of Revelation. Now if God saw fit to put this warning in that book is it not obvious He knew that people would be tempted to do just that?



Just because God does not want people to do something does not mean people won’t do it.



And history proves that man has tampered with the scripture.



Witness 1Jn.5:7



Witness Mk.16:9-20



Neither of which are in the oldest and best manuscripts.



Both are an interpolation; added to scripture at a later date.



Some might not like it but those are the FACTS.



Some people have told me that the bible is the word of God and everything in it is of Him and by Him and that He most surely could have protected it all through history.

First let me say there is only ONE WORD OF GOD, that being Jesus Christ and everything that proceeds from His mouth. Therefore the bible cannot be the word of God as history and scripture shows man has tampered with it, adding to it and taking away from it.

Are you getting the picture? Not everything in our bibles is inspired by God or scripture. Man has tampered so much with the scriptures, adding and taking away from them, that the bibles today bring in much confusion. My suggestion to you and everyone else is to take every thought (especially the thoughts recorded in the bible) captive to Christ and see what He says about them.





Some people ask concerning some of the things they have read in the bible concerning the OT.

Things such as God commanding the killings of innocent men, women and children.

Well there are 3 outlooks on this; one is abhorrent, the other 2 are most probable.

1 God actually commanded people to do these things (this is the abhorrent one)

2 People misunderstood what God was actually saying and literally did what He was saying when He was speaking spiritually.

3 The lying pen of the scribes added to the scriptures saying God said such and such when God never said anything of the kind.

We read is scripture

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. 23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: 24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them

We also read

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

What people believe about God is what they write about Him, it does not make what they believe and write true. Only that which Jesus states about God is true and right, all others write under a vail of ignorance.



And the reason people see our kind loving Father in a bad light is because people still see God as portrayed though the eyes of ignorant, unenlightened men who wrote under a veil of darkness and did not know the Father. And because people insist on listening to the lying pen of the scribes instead of listening to what Jesus says of the Father.



On the mount of transfiguration Peter, James and John wanted to build 3 tabernacles. One for Moses, one for Elijah and one for Jesus. God said not so, He (speaking of Jesus) is my beloved son HEAR HIM. People are still listening to Moses and Elijah, men who were under the vail of ignorance and did not really know the Father.



Yes they knew the Father but did not fully know the Father, only Jesus and those He revealed the Father to know and understand the Father.

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hey there... what do you think of God WANTING us to suffer? like with chastisement and such, and that scripture that says 'after you have suffered a little while'

and in Job when God says 'He wounds, then He heals'

Job is a pretty scary book on the subject...

does God really WANT us to suffer? or is that a misinterpretation too?

i just don't understand, it's hard to believe that i'm EVER going to get healed, when I'm thinking that God wants me to suffer for an undefined amount of time.

that seems to be one of the last chinks in my armour... as to why it is hard to trust God.

Pneuma? anything to say about that? please?

2tim_215 said:

That's probably one of the reasons why God sacrificed His son for us, perhaps He felt somewhat responsible.
So when the Bible says that God created 'all things', is it possible that even ideas, behavior, and other aspects of the human condition weren't DIRECTLY 'created by God', but through the creation of US those things became possible?
When you look at creation, it's not just man we're talking about, but angels as well, in particular Lucifer, who existed long before man did.
Like Satan. If God created Satan, and then at some point Satan rebelled and became EVIL. Isn't it possible that God didn't directly create 'evil' but by creating Satan it could be SAID that it was created by God through the creation of Satan?
Lucifer (as well as most of the angels) was given free choice and given that came the ability to rebel against God thereby creating evil. So evil existed long before man did.
If there was 'darkness' before God created ANYTHING. But upon the creation of 'light' the darkness then had significance in comparison to the 'light', in essence, couldn't it be said that without the 'light' darkness wouldn't have really existed? So by creating light, the concept of darkness THEN came into existence?

If God IS love, then He could ONLY actually 'create' that which is 'of love'. But by creating that which was created 'of love', that which was created has the capacity to exercise 'free will'. Therefore, even though God didn't create 'evil', by it coming into existence BY His 'creation' it could be 'said' that He created it, being responsible for the 'creation' that introduced it.

I know what the Bible says. But we are told that to understand it we must compare each line to ALL others to find the 'truth' coupled with guidance of the Holy Spirit.

God cannot LIE. Yet lying exists. If He cannot LIE, did He create LYING. No different than asking did God create that which is NOT 'the truth'? Could He? Ultimate He could be responsible for ALL things that exist, but does that mean HE, Himself, created those things that are contrary to what and who He truly IS?
John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
The devil is the father of all lies.

I think people often take words from the Bible as literal when they aren't really offered that way nor meant to be interpreted that way. And that includes those that created 'churches'. Things are not ALWAYS 'black or white'. There are often 'exceptions' or 'deeper truths' that are hidden to most.

We see 'men' creating NEW things every day. Things that God is NOT 'creating'. But if we consider that WE were created by God, ultimately we COULD attribute the 'things' created by men as ultimately being created by God through His creating US.

So is the Bible being LITERAL when it states that God 'created ALL things'? It's certainly debatable from many different angles. If you insist on taking the Bible in an absolute literal translation, you could certainly BELIEVE that God created ALL things. But if you break it down you could also be able to see that through creation itself ALL things EXIST and therefore were made POSSIBLE by God. And in that context He DID create 'all things' by making ALL things that have been created possible.

Blessings,

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Good points.

Let me show CLEARLY that God did NOT 'create all things'.

God cannot lie. Yet there is 'one' who IS the 'Father of lies'. Obviously Satan 'created' lying.

So this certainly beyond debate.

And how about 'temptation'? If God cannot tempt one to do evil, then how does one suppose He 'created' temptation?

Two very obvious things that God did not create. Just one would PROVE that God did not literally create 'all' things.

This points to a concept that many find difficult to fathom or accept: Just because the words used in the Bible may SEEM to say something concrete, often they must be taken in context to find TRUE understanding.

Blessings,

MEC

needhugs said:

hey there... what do you think of God WANTING us to suffer? like with chastisement and such, and that scripture that says 'after you have suffered a little while'

and in Job when God says 'He wounds, then He heals'

Job is a pretty scary book on the subject...

does God really WANT us to suffer? or is that a misinterpretation too?

i just don't understand, it's hard to believe that i'm EVER going to get healed, when I'm thinking that God wants me to suffer for an undefined amount of time.

that seems to be one of the last chinks in my armour... as to why it is hard to trust God.

Pneuma? anything to say about that? please?

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I don't believe God wants us to suffer, but God know because of the nature of man, that suffering will come.

There are two different ways to suffer, as the unrighteous and as the righteous.
God knows that the righteous will suffer persecution but after a little while
He will perfect us.

Pneuma3 said:

I don't believe God wants us to suffer, but God know because of the nature of man, that suffering will come.

There are two different ways to suffer, as the unrighteous and as the righteous.
God knows that the righteous will suffer persecution but after a little while
He will perfect us.

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but if God wounds us on purpose, then He does, in fact, WANT us to suffer...
i'm just trying to figure out how to hope for healing in light of that fact.

needhugs said:

but if God wounds us on purpose, then He does, in fact, WANT us to suffer...
i'm just trying to figure out how to hope for healing in light of that fact.

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God wounds us at times (takes us to the woodshed when we need it) because He loves us:
Hebrews 12:5-13 (KJV)
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
You should really be thankful when He chastises you, that shows He cares and is trying to get you straightened out and hasn't given up on you yet. You can always repent (if you're in your present state due to something wrong you did) and ask for forgiveness and then pray for healing. It actually works.

2tim_215 said:

God wounds us at times (takes us to the woodshed when we need it) because He loves us:
Hebrews 12:5-13 (KJV)
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
You should really be thankful when He chastises you, that shows He cares and is trying to get you straightened out and hasn't given up on you yet. You can always repent (if you're in your present state due to something wrong you did) and ask for forgiveness and then pray for healing. It actually works.

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yes, in present state coz i was an evil atheist, also did occult things... i've been peeling the onion and asking for forgiveness for about 20 years now.
today i had a revelation about it... you even quoted scripture that has the word in it, which i found shocking... thanks for that scripture, the book of Hebrews scares me, so i might not have seen it otherwise.
got a little revelation about it... well maybe not so little
I used to run long distance when i was young... and healthy
and God brought to mind 'the pain' especially when i first started running with the track team in high school... i mean the coach made me run 7 miles THE FIRST DAY lol including strength/interval training!
by the end of the week, i could not sit myself down in a chair, and once down, i could not get up lol
that pain was bad, tho it passed as i got stronger, and soon i was only in pain on mondays after taking the weekend off running, if i stopped training for more than a day, it was painful again.
so what God is saying is to think of the pain i'm in, LIKE THAT, like it's exercise!!! except it's for spiritual strength and endurance.
altho i am once again in the position of wondering about my Coach's sanity haha

needhugs said:

yes, in present state coz i was an evil atheist, also did occult things... i've been peeling the onion and asking for forgiveness for about 20 years now.
today i had a revelation about it... you even quoted scripture that has the word in it, which i found shocking... thanks for that scripture, the book of Hebrews scares me, so i might not have seen it otherwise.
got a little revelation about it... well maybe not so little
I used to run long distance when i was young... and healthy
and God brought to mind 'the pain' especially when i first started running with the track team in high school... i mean the coach made me run 7 miles THE FIRST DAY lol including strength/interval training!
by the end of the week, i could not sit myself down in a chair, and once down, i could not get up lol
that pain was bad, tho it passed as i got stronger, and soon i was only in pain on mondays after taking the weekend off running, if i stopped training for more than a day, it was painful again.
so what God is saying is to think of the pain i'm in, LIKE THAT, like it's exercise!!! except it's for spiritual strength and endurance.
altho i am once again in the position of wondering about my Coach's sanity haha

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Bless you needhugs. Thank you for sharing. Don't give up on your spiritual walk. You'll get there and God will help you. And don't be afraid of scripture. It won't hurt you. lol.

2tim_215 said:

Bless you needhugs. Thank you for sharing. Don't give up on your spiritual walk. You'll get there and God will help you. And don't be afraid of scripture. It won't hurt you. lol.

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bless you tooooo... and YES, scripture has hurt me in the past... you know the one where we are a sweet perfume to those being saved and a the stench of death to those who are perishing? i can't remember any exact phrasing, or i would look it up... but there are a LOT of different 'spirits' you can read the Word in, and i was in a hellishly tormented 'spirit'... and it seemed like every second line in the Bible i was finding out i was yet another sort of 'wicked' and how i was going to be hurt for it... it was TERRIFYING... not to mention the unpardonable sin and what THAT did to me!! and the Hebrews 10 punishment!!

i had a LOT to learn about the nature of God and the true meaning of scriptures... i'm quite calm now, and have a brand new copy of the concordant version of the NT that i have beside me at all times, to pick up and read, and it's enjoyable now... mostly lol
it's also good to remember that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life, and I dooo need to get the meanings of scripture from God.

God did not create evil. Evil comes from having free will.

However what i don't understand is that God would have already known Adam and Eve would sin in the garden before he made them, therefore why did he bother?

steve78 said:

God did not create evil. Evil comes from having free will.

However what i don't understand is that God would have already known Adam and Eve would sin in the garden before he made them, therefore why did he bother?

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First let me say that it's imperative that we trust God. When we come across questions which are hard to answer, that's when our faith becomes so important. As for your question. I don't profess to know the entirety of the answer but here's what I think.
When it comes humanity and our relationship to God we tend to think of just ourselves and our history with Him. What we fail to consider is that God has some other intelligence's that He has created prior to us and a history with them as well of which we know very little about. And He apparently has a relationship as well (they are referred to as sons as well in Job). Satan, who was once Lucifer. and who seduced Eve in the garden which resulted in man's fall has a lot to do with man's condition today and is probably the one most responsible for our suffering today. Why create us anyway since He knew that man would likely fall? Perhaps because He has some glorious purpose for us in our future.

2tim_215 said:

Why create us anyway since He knew that man would likely fall? Perhaps because He has some glorious purpose for us in our future.

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I suppose its because its better to create beings with free will rather than a load of obedient mindless slaves.

steve78 said:

I suppose its because its better to create beings with free will rather than a load of obedient mindless slaves.

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I also think by having to struggle and go through the things on earth we have to go through, it will prepare us for eternity, an eternity with no more of these problems.

2tim_215 said:

I also think by having to struggle and go through the things on earth we have to go through, it will prepare us for eternity, an eternity with no more of these problems.

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Suffering and Evil is simply a side effect of having beings with free will,so i don't think God has a purpose for these things.

steve78 said:

God did not create evil. Evil comes from having free will.

However what i don't understand is that God would have already known Adam and Eve would sin in the garden before he made them, therefore why did he bother?

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Hi steve, does Gods all knowing aspect mean that God knows every choice of man from eternity past?

Most people believe it does, but scripture imo does not back up that assertion. I believe the reason God knows everything is because He searches out all the hidden things in man.
Let me give a few examples of how God searches things out.

in Deuteronomy 8:2 says that he tests us so that He will know whether we will keep His commandments or not.

I don't think anyone will argue that fact that Adam and Eve were being tested in the garden, for according to Deuteronomy 8:2 that is the reason for the commandment "thou shalt not eat". God was testing Adam and Eve to see if they would keep His commandment or not.

Thus we see the searching questions God asked of Adam and Eve. Did you eat?

We also see this same thing concerning Abraham and Isaac.

Genesis 22:12
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Here we can see God again using a test so that He (God) will know something about an individuals heart.

This scripture does not say so the Abraham will know what is in his heart as the teacher student scenario suggests. If emphatically states NOW I (GOD) KNOW.

God wanted to see if Abraham would withhold his only son from Him (God).

So if God is a meticulously controlling exhaustive foreknowing God this test of Abraham means nothing, for God would have foreknown from eternity past that Abraham would not withhold anything from Him.

We also have examples from the tower of babel where God is said to come down and see, and the case of Sodom and Gomorrah where God comes down to see if the cry He had heard from S & G was according to the cry.

I can give many more instances of God searching things out if you need them.