Did Jesus Really Mean What He Said?

TogetherInHim · Jul 24, 2018

parousia70 said:
2 different trees. One Adam was told not to eat from, the other Adam was commanded to freely eat from (or not)

Nowhere does it say once is all it takes.

Yet you yourself have added the words "once to eat" to the text where they simply do not exist, ostensibly because you "suppose it should say that".

Maybe it's only OK when YOU do it?

Regardless of how welcome we are to continually eat from the tree of life while in heaven, if Adam, while in the Garden of Eden, were to "put for his hand" once to eat (not "keeps eating"), then the Word says he would live forever.

You are correct, I said that because I suppose it actually indicates that in the words chosen to describe the act that would precipitate the result of living forever. The words used do not suggest more than a one time occurrence "put forth his hand" to have achieved eternal life (singular event wording the same as the single event of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). As you say, it may well be the case that the angel preventing Adam from continuing to eat from the tree of life would have the same effect, death, for which he would need a Savior to give him eternal life. Either way, Adam did not already have eternal life.

If you are suggesting that we too would need to continually eat from the tree of life to sustain out eternal life, then we are mortal eternally and Jesus did not give us what the bible says he gave, once for all, eternal life.

TogetherInHim · Jul 24, 2018

bcbsr said:
Your saying the saved go to hell. So if they're saved, what are they saved from?

You previously said, "Salvation- Jesus has initiated a covenant that requires only belief and confession to receive. Once a believer enters this covenant, he has been given eternal life that will never be taken away."

So you're saying these "saved" believers have eternal life, but go to hell. Is that right?

You have asked me to explain this in once sentence answers. Not possible.

I'll make this as short as I can...

"Saved"- Saved from the curse of death that Adam brought upon the world.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3)

Two possibilities, "perish" (death as a consequence of Adam's sin) or "everlasting life". Jesus "saves" us from death and gives us everlasting life. That is "salvation". That happens when we accept his sacrifice and exchange our mortality for immortality.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1 Corinthians 15)

Then... and only after we have entered the covenant and have been born again by the spirit can we "see the kingdom of heaven" and "strive to enter" our promised "inheritance" which has conditions of entry. These conditions are the expectations of the "Lord" over his "servants", those to whom he has given "salvation" and a promised place that they must value and possess. See the parables of the Treasure hidden in a field, the pearl of great price, the parable of the talents, and others...

Most of the parables are illustrations of those who "enter the kingdom of heaven" having met the Lord's reasonable expectations and those who fail to meet them and are cast out. The "servants" who fail to meet his clearly defined expectations of their "Lord" are sent somewhere... Outer darkness where there will be gnashing of teeth in every case.

These "servants" have been given eternal life. They have "put on immortality". They can never die. They go to where eternal beings like Satan and the rebellious angels under judgment go... Hell.

TogetherInHim · Jul 24, 2018

Chinchilla said:
John 15:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luke 12)

Jesus also warns his "friends" that there is the possibility of being "cast into hell" because he is our friend who wants us to follow him all the way into his promised kingdom. A friend warns us of potential danger. If there is no possibility of the Lord's "friend" to be cast into hell, the why would he "forewarn you" as his friend of such a possibility?

bcbsr · Jul 24, 2018

TogetherInHim said:
You have asked me to explain this in once sentence answers. Not possible.

I'll make this as short as I can...

"Saved"- Saved from the curse of death that Adam brought upon the world.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3)

Two possibilities, "perish" (death as a consequence of Adam's sin) or "everlasting life". Jesus "saves" us from death and gives us everlasting life. That is "salvation". That happens when we accept his sacrifice and exchange our mortality for immortality.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1 Corinthians 15)

Then... and only after we have entered the covenant and have been born again by the spirit can we "see the kingdom of heaven" and "strive to enter" our promised "inheritance" which has conditions of entry. These conditions are the expectations of the "Lord" over his "servants", those to whom he has given "salvation" and a promised place that they must value and possess. See the parables of the Treasure hidden in a field, the pearl of great price, the parable of the talents, and others...

Most of the parables are illustrations of those who "enter the kingdom of heaven" having met the Lord's reasonable expectations and those who fail to meet them and are cast out. The "servants" who fail to meet his clearly defined expectations of their "Lord" are sent somewhere... Outer darkness where there will be gnashing of teeth in every case.

These "servants" have been given eternal life. They have "put on immortality". They can never die. They go to where eternal beings like Satan and the rebellious angels under judgment go... Hell.

If they go to hell, then what are they saved from? You're saying they're saved from annihilation to suffer torment in hell fire. In what way is that salvation?

And that in contrast to what Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 and Paul "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." Rom 5:9

Chinchilla · Jul 24, 2018

TogetherInHim said:
4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luke 12)

Jesus also warns his "friends" that there is the possibility of being "cast into hell" because he is our friend who wants us to follow him all the way into his promised kingdom. A friend warns us of potential danger. If there is no possibility of the Lord's "friend" to be cast into hell, the why would he "forewarn you" as his friend of such a possibility?

Not possible , he is speaking of his power and comparing these who can kill body to himself who can kill not only body but soul endlessly in hell .

2 Corinthians 5:11

TogetherInHim · Jul 24, 2018

bcbsr said:
If they go to hell, then what are they saved from? You're saying they're saved from annihilation to suffer torment in hell fire. In what way is that salvation?

And that in contrast to what Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 and Paul "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." Rom 5:9

I respect your thoughtful questions. Thank you.

John 5:24 above tells us about "salvation" from death. Agree?

Romans 5:9 above confirms "salvation" by his blood and tells us that there is a wrath to come that we will be spared from. Paul does not go into the circumstances that may happen that will bring about judgment to these same "saved" persons.

However, he does so in Hebrews 10 "For if "we" go on sinning willfully after receiving.."

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37 For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Sorry to make this too long, but there is so much scripture that I could give you...

QUESTION: In the following illustration, when the "servant" was forgiven his debt, was he "saved" from the consequences of not being able to pay?

Answer: Yes.

QUESTION: Later, after being "saved" from the consequences of paying back a debt he could not pay, did "his lord" level consequences back on "his servant" for failing to meet the reasonable expectations of having been forgiven? Did this negate the original "salvation" granted, or did the "servant" forfeit it by failing to meet "his lord's" expectations?

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

Recognize that Jesus has defined the relationship of “Lord” and “Servant”. If Jesus says that this person is a “servant” over whom He acknowledges “lordship”, then we had better be careful not to dismiss it as an unbeliever.

Jesus continues…

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellow servant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

It is unmistakable that Jesus is warning believers/disciples/fellow servants those who are in covenant relationship with Him, that there are expectations that have benefits and consequences.

He does not deny that the “wicked” servant is “his servant”. He is telling His servants that He has expectations that must be met or there are consequences.

TogetherInHim · Jul 24, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Not possible , he is speaking of his power and comparing these who can kill body to himself who can kill not only body but soul endlessly in hell .

2 Corinthians 5:11

What is not possible?

parousia70 · Jul 24, 2018

TogetherInHim said:
You are correct, I said that because I suppose it actually indicates that in the words chosen to describe the act that would precipitate the result of living forever.

So again, when you "Suppose" something in the text not directly taught, it's perfectly ok, but when you suspect others of doing it you say "I accept what God says, not what one supposes it should say."

I can therefore only conclude you believe you are personally allowed to "suppose" but others are not.

In contrast, I believe we ALL should abide by the same rules.

As you say, it may well be the case that the angel preventing Adam from continuing to eat from the tree of life would have the same effect, death, for which he would need a Savior to give him eternal life.

I agree.

Either way, Adam did not already have eternal life.

Again I agree.....even in his pre-fallen perfect state, Adam was not created immortal... even if he never disobeyed God, it's clear he would have physically died if he had chosen to abstain from the tree of life, which, by the direct command of God, he was free to do.

If you are suggesting that we too would need to continually eat from the tree of life to sustain out eternal life, then we are mortal eternally and Jesus did not give us what the bible says he gave, once for all, eternal life.

Jesus did say that He fulfilled Living Waters prophesy and that one drink of those waters he offered and ye shall never thirst again.... We see no such indication about the tree of life, and as I pointed out, in Revelation, on the New Earth, after the GWT Judgment and all has been made perfect and anew, the tree of life is there, producing fruit every month, whos leaves are for the healing of the nations....Why do you think in that perfect New Heavens and Earth state, the nations are STILL in constant need of continual healing?

Chinchilla · Jul 24, 2018

TogetherInHim said:
What is not possible?

For Christian to burn in hell .

Gideons300 · Jul 24, 2018

TogetherInHim said:
Did Jesus Really Mean What He Said?

I can’t help but think about the statements of Jesus in the Word and how we refuse to accept what he actually says. If he says it, he means it. If he chooses precise words, he means precise use of those words.

When Jesus refers to someone as a “master” or a “servant” while making an illustration for us to understand something, he is not talking about someone outside of his covenant. If you are not in covenant, he is not your master and you are not his servant. Of his “servants”, under his “lordship”, he expects obedience, fruit-bearing, and cooperation in the sanctification process all aided by the Holy Spirit. We absolutely refuse to believe, that if his reasonable expectations of Lordship are not met by believers, that there are consequences that can cost them their entrance to the kingdom inheritance.

“…like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.” Hebrews 12

This is a warning in the New Covenant to believers. Our “birthright” from being “born again” is the “inheritance” of the kingdom of heaven. Over and over Jesus says, “The kingdom of heaven is like…” and gives examples of behaviors that either end up gaining entrance, or being denied entrance, to the kingdom of heaven.

These “behaviors” are works and fruit-bearing lifestyles that either have met the Lord’s expectations resulting in entrance, or have failed to meet his expectations resulting in being cast out. Since these are “behaviors” and “works” they cannot be about “salvation”. These behaviors and works are expected by a Holy God who has given everyone that has accepted salvation from death, everything they need to go all the way into the kingdom. These "works" do not "earn" the kingdom of heaven. They are the demonstration of who we actually are, as opposed to our covenant claim to be His, to whom he has given "salvation" and an "inheritance"...

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knew that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 25:26

If we say, “Well, he wasn’t really saved…” or, "He wasn't really a servant", we are contradicting that the Lord has defined this relationship as “Lord” and “Servant”. The Lord has no expectation of productivity from those who have not received him in covenant. Even if they “produced” something, that could not result in salvation or it would be a works-based salvation. No, it’s all about the entrance to the kingdom…

Christians don’t repent or grow because they believe there are no consequences for a life of no fruit-bearing and ongoing willful sin despite the fact that it is detailed and illustrated so vividly in the Word.

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37 For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. (Hebrews 10)

“Believers” understand what is being said and know that this warning, and many others spoken by their "Lord", are for them…

Watch a brief video summary of the study at: www.WhoGoesToHell.com

What an excellent post. In Luke’s account of the same parable of the talents, there is a verse that I doubt has ever been preached on before in any church. Immediately after the angry master takes away that which He gave to the unprofitable servant, the master then speaks these chilling words:

“Then bring all those who would not have me to reign over them, and slay them before me.”

Luke 17

in our modern Chrtianity, we have made our “free will” into a God in its own right. But let us not forget. We are told that we either are slaves to the devil or servants to God and to righteousness. We are never “free” to do our own thing, serving God when the mood strikes us and kicking up our heels a bit when we feel a bit naughty. Our free will is given for ONE choice. Whom will we serve?

What we desperately need to see though, is that once we make that choice, having counted the cost, which is our most precious pearl.... the free will of SELF, and given our lives fully over to Him, He then can do His part in the covenant, which is to cause us to will and to do of His good pleasure

. We must never forget that as the master potter, He will take full responsibility for our fruitfulness, if we will but, one, finally acknowledge that for us to ever walk as He desires, He must do the work in us, and two, He will not fail to do it as we trust Him to.

Blessings again. I hope to see more of your posts.

Gideon

TogetherInHim · Jul 24, 2018

parousia70 said:
So again, when you "Suppose" something in the text not directly taught, it's perfectly ok, but when you suspect others of doing it you say "I accept what God says, not what one supposes it should say."

I can therefore only conclude you believe you are personally allowed to "suppose" but others are not.

In contrast, I believe we ALL should abide by the same rules.

I agree.

Again I agree.....even in his pre-fallen perfect state, Adam was not created immortal... even if he never disobeyed God, it's clear he would have physically died if he had chosen to abstain from the tree of life, which, by the direct command of God, he was free to do.

Jesus did say that He fulfilled Living Waters prophesy and that one drink of those waters he offered and ye shall never thirst again.... We see no such indication about the tree of life, and as I pointed out, in Revelation, on the New Earth, after the GWT Judgment and all has been made perfect and anew, the tree of life is there, producing fruit every month, whos leaves are for the healing of the nations....Why do you think in that perfect New Heavens and Earth state, the nations are STILL in constant need of continual healing?

So again, when you "Suppose" something in the text not directly taught, it's perfectly ok, but when you suspect others of doing it you say "I accept what God says, not what one supposes it should say."

I can therefore only conclude you believe you are personally allowed to "suppose" but others are not.

In contrast, I believe we ALL should abide by the same rules.

I guess you didn't realize from my previous post that I conceded to your point that I was also "supposing"...

In any case...

Again I agree.....even in his pre-fallen perfect state, Adam was not created immortal... even if he never disobeyed God, it's clear he would have physically died if he had chosen to abstain from the tree of life, which, by the direct command of God, he was free to do.

God did not command Adam to eat from the tree of life.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Of every tree to may eat, not of the tree of life you must eat (or die which I believe you are suggesting).

The only death-threat was associated with eating from one tree. Otherwise, God should have said, "Of every tree of the garden you must eat or you will surely die." Or, "Of the Tree of Life you must eat or you will surely die."

If God warned Adam about the consequences of death associated with eating from one tree, would he not warn him about the consequences of death for not eating from another tree?

in Revelation, on the New Earth, after the GWT Judgment and all has been made perfect and anew, the tree of life is there, producing fruit every month, whose leaves are for the healing of the nations....Why do you think in that perfect New Heavens and Earth state, the nations are STILL in constant need of continual healing?

I believe the "healing of the nations" refers to the millennial reign of Christ over the nations upon the earth for 1000 years. Perhaps not.

TogetherInHim · Jul 24, 2018

Gideons300 said:
What an excellent post. In Luke’s account of the same parable of the talents, there is a verse that I doubt has ever been preached on before in any church. Immediately after the angry master takes away that which He gave to the unprofitable servant, the master then speaks these chilling words:

“Then bring all those who would not have me to reign over them, and slay them before me.”

Luke 17

in our modern Christianity, we have made our “free will” into a God in its own right. But let us not forget. We are told that we either are slaves to the devil or servants to God and to righteousness. We are never “free” to do our own thing, serving God when the mood strikes us and kicking up our heels a bit when we feel a bit naughty. Our free will is given for ONE choice. Whom will we serve?

What we desperately need to see though, is that once we make that choice, having counted the cost, which is our most precious pearl.... the free will of SELF, and given our lives fully over to Him, He then can do His part in the covenant, which is to cause us to will and to do of His good pleasure

. We must never forget that as the master potter, He will take full responsibility for our fruitfulness, if we will but, one, finally acknowledge that for us to ever walk as He desires, He must do the work in us, and two, He will not fail to do it as we trust Him to.

Blessings again. I hope to see more of your posts.

Gideon

Amen!

If you care to take a look and comment, here is a brief video summary of the study discussion:

www.WhoGoesToHell.com

TogetherInHim · Jul 24, 2018

Chinchilla said:
For Christian to burn in hell .

What is a "Christian"?

If you mean someone who receives Christ, accepts his free gift of eternal life, and follows him as Lord, then yes, it is impossible for him to go to hell.

However, if you mean everyone who receives Christ, accepts his free gift of eternal life and does not follow him as Lord, then, yes, it is absolutely the case that this "hypocrite" has tread upon the blood of the Son of God and there is this destiny in store for him...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37 For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. Hebrews 10

Jesus said...

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15

Unless we are born again, we cannot "abide in him" or "bear fruit" that he expects. He is speaking to believers. He expects fruit-bearing as a result of our relationship with him. This cannot be talking about salvation which has no such fruit-bearing requirement to be saved from the curse of death that Adam brought upon the world. Once given the opportunity to be saved and to abide in him, we will naturally bear fruit, or we will not abide in him relationally, and be cut off and cast into the fire.

Chinchilla · Jul 24, 2018

TogetherInHim said:
If you mean someone who receives Christ, accepts his free gift of eternal life, and follows him as Lord, then yes, it is impossible for him to go to hell.

Not possible

1 Corinthians 3:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

bcbsr · Jul 24, 2018

TogetherInHim said:
I respect your thoughtful questions. Thank you.

John 5:24 above tells us about "salvation" from death. Agree?

Romans 5:9 above confirms "salvation" by his blood and tells us that there is a wrath to come that we will be spared from. Paul does not go into the circumstances that may happen that will bring about judgment to these same "saved" persons.

However, he does so in Hebrews 10 "For if "we" go on sinning willfully after receiving.."

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37 For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Sorry to make this too long, but there is so much scripture that I could give you...

QUESTION: In the following illustration, when the "servant" was forgiven his debt, was he "saved" from the consequences of not being able to pay?

Answer: Yes.

QUESTION: Later, after being "saved" from the consequences of paying back a debt he could not pay, did "his lord" level consequences back on "his servant" for failing to meet the reasonable expectations of having been forgiven? Did this negate the original "salvation" granted, or did the "servant" forfeit it by failing to meet "his lord's" expectations?

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

Recognize that Jesus has defined the relationship of “Lord” and “Servant”. If Jesus says that this person is a “servant” over whom He acknowledges “lordship”, then we had better be careful not to dismiss it as an unbeliever.

Jesus continues…

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellow servant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

It is unmistakable that Jesus is warning believers/disciples/fellow servants those who are in covenant relationship with Him, that there are expectations that have benefits and consequences.

He does not deny that the “wicked” servant is “his servant”. He is telling His servants that He has expectations that must be met or there are consequences.

Your premise is that salvation is about salvation, nor from condemnation, but from annihilation. This premise is wrong.

Salvation by faith, apart from works, incorporates justification, which saves from God's wrath due to the forgiveness of sins. People go to hell because of sin. Faith in Christ saves from such a fate because of justification from sin.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

And Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." Jesus said they will not be condemned. You say they will be condemned.

Those who are saved are under the New Covenant. The New Covenant states, "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." Heb 8:12, which is the same as what Paul states of justification by faith apart from works in

Rom 4:1-8
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God.
3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

As I hear it, you're telling me that you don't believe in justification by faith apart from works, and you misinterpret scripture based on that premise.

TogetherInHim · Jul 24, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Not possible

1 Corinthians 3:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Examine the context of the verse you quoted...

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Paul is speaking to genuine believers, those who follow Christ and "labor together with God"...

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is not about the required fruit-bearing for entrance to the kingdom of Heaven. This is about a genuine Christian's work and his reward for his labor. The work will either be rewarded because its motivation was of God, or it will be burned up giving him no reward, but he will not lose his place in the kingdom of heaven.

However...

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Paul is saying to these co-laborers with God, that we are the "temple of God" and we are holy because of that. If we "defile the temple of God", Guess what... "Him shall God destroy"...

How can one "defile the temple of God" which he is?

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment... Hebrews 10

Chinchilla · Jul 24, 2018

TogetherInHim said:
Examine the context of the verse you quoted...

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Paul is speaking to genuine believers, those who follow Christ and "labor together with God"...

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is not about the required fruit-bearing for entrance to the kingdom of Heaven. This is about a genuine Christian's work and his reward for his labor. The work will either be rewarded because its motivation was of God, or it will be burned up giving him no reward, but he will not lose his place in the kingdom of heaven.

However...

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Paul is saying to these co-laborers with God, that we are the "temple of God" and we are holy because of that. If we "defile the temple of God", Guess what... "Him shall God destroy"...

How can one "defile the temple of God" which he is?

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment... Hebrews 10

Romans 3:20
Galatians 2:16

Dan the deacon · Jul 24, 2018

bcbsr said:
In what way is that salvation?

In no way. He is dead wrong. Salvation is life not eternal death.
I'd say he's trying to sound like he has found some new supposed truth but on truth he has devieved himself.

TogetherInHim · Jul 24, 2018

bcbsr said:
Your premise is that salvation is about salvation, nor from condemnation, but from annihilation. This premise is wrong.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

And Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." Jesus said they will not be condemned. You say they will be condemned.

Those who are saved are under the New Covenant. The New Covenant states, "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." Heb 8:12, which is the same as what Paul states of justification by faith apart from works in

Rom 4:1-8
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God.
3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Salvation by faith, apart from works, incorporates justification, which saves from God's wrath due to the forgiveness of sins. People go to hell because of sin. Faith in Christ saves from such a fate because of justification from sin.

For the unbeliever...

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Those who receive Christ and his gift of eternal life and go on sinning willfully get judged...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10

Can you figure out a way to get around these verses? There are a lot of willfully sinning "Christians" that will need a way out when "the Lord judges His people"...

And Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." Jesus said they will not be condemned. You say they will be condemned.

"Will not be condemned" to what? Condemned to death...

Jesus clarified it to Nicodemus...

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3)

Condemned already? Before the final judgment? Yes, condemned to “death” under the curse that Adam brought into the world. If you don’t come to Jesus, you are condemned to death, being mortal.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

As I hear it, you're telling me that you don't believe in justification by faith apart from works, and you misinterpret scripture based on that premise.

No, I certainly agree that we are justified by faith apart from works of the law... as it applies to receiving "salvation". It is the free, unearned gift of God for the asking. The distinction is not about salvation. It is about the obvious (maybe not so obvious) requirements of entrance to our promised "inheritance", the kingdom of heaven that is reserved for those who have accepted Christ, have been justified and sanctified by his blood...who do not meet the expectations so clearly defined in the parables and direct warnings of Jesus to those he has given his holy spirit and commandments...

Are there no consequences for those who accept his free gift of eternal life and fail to obey his commandments?

Does fruit-bearing earn salvation? No, Jesus is specifically talking about "entrance into the kingdom of heaven".

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7

Those who have called upon the name of the Lord for salvation that continue to willfully sin do not enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus did not disagree that they had done these works in his name. They had the power to perform many miracles and cast out devils and we know that Satan cannot cast out Satan. He said that he did not have a relationship with them. We are given access to the power of the kingdom when we receive Christ. We must be in relationship with him in order to use it safely and according to his will.

parousia70 · Jul 24, 2018

TogetherInHim said:
I guess you didn't realize from my previous post that I conceded to your point that I was also "supposing"...

As long as you retract your previous comment about not letting anyone else suppose, then we're good.

God did not command Adam to eat from the tree of life.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Of every tree to may eat, not of the tree of life you must eat (or die which I believe you are suggesting).

Prior to the fall, Adam was free to eat from the tree of life or not. the Bible is silent on whether he did or not.

The only death-threat was associated with eating from one tree. Otherwise, God should have said, "Of every tree of the garden you must eat or you will surely die." Or, "Of the Tree of Life you must eat or you will surely die."

"In that day" he would surely die..... he didn't die for 900 years...
Clearly God wasn't speaking of physical death associated with malnutrition...His concern for Adam was eternal, not temporal.

If God warned Adam about the consequences of death associated with eating from one tree, would he not warn him about the consequences of death for not eating from another tree?

Why didn't God tell Adam he needed to breathe air or he would surely Die? Clearly, he DID need to breathe air or he would have died, right?

Adam was a created physical being with a need for nourishment, oxygen, water, etc...to maintain physical life. He was not created immortal... i though you and I were in agreement on that?
Had he not fallen, His physical death would not have separated him from God forever... he would have gone straight to heaven. Victory!

No need to tell him if he didn't eat he would physically die.... When he got hungry, he would eat. The stomach is a powerful motivator

Just as the lungs are a powerful motivator to breathe!

I believe the "healing of the nations" refers to the millennial reign of Christ over the nations upon the earth for 1000 years. Perhaps not.

however, that isn't taught anywhere in the text. You have to presuppose it.

Did Jesus Really Mean What He Said?

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