Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

Dave L said:

This is not what scripture says. I encourage you to launch a study on this topic and see for your self. This will get you started:

Circumcision made one a covenant member of Abraham's seed. At the time over 300 servants and their families became Abraham's covenant seed through circumcision when only Ishmael was his blood relative.

And God told Abraham, any not circumcised were to be cut off. This meant they were not his covenant seed no matter if they were related or not.

So when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, he broke off all physical unbelieving members of Israel. This left only the believers in Christ who like Abraham had circumcised hearts.

By invalidating circumcision, the Only biblical Israel today is Christendom. And the State of Israel is nothing more than the gentiles, calling themselves Jews, who trample down Jerusalem until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

Paul has the unbelievers broken off from Israel in Romans 11. And reattached only through faith in Christ.

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A person is circumcised after he is born. To be born a Jew, a person's mother has to be a Jew.

Douggg said:

Not only that, God is the one who brought the Jews back to their own land

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The Rothschild family is not God.

However, their control of large parts of the global economy have allowed them to help create one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church.

Many well-meaning Christians have yoked themselves with those who reject Christ.
Those who reject Christ are "antichrist", based on 1 John 2:22-23.



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Dave L said:

That is not anywhere in scripture. It is a Jewish fable.

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It is not a Jewish fable. It goes back to the days of Nehemiah and Ezra. And them shaming the caretaker Jews in Jerusalem, who had married non-Jewish wives and had children by them to send them away because it a repeat of what Solomon did that brought idols into Israel, and ended up in the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities.

BABerean2 said:

The Rothschild family is not God.

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Well, you got that part right. The Rothschilds are not the "I will" speaking in verses in Ezekiel 37.

Dave L said:

This was a situation where the Jews became pagan marrying pagans. God forbade this from their inception. But many gentiles became Jews being circumcised members of the community. A mixed multitude came out of Egypt. All Jews. This is because they are a religion and not a race any more than Christians are a race.

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The mixed multitude were them who not of the Hebrew children, that streamed along to get out of Egyptian slavery.

Judaism is the prime religion of the Jews. Jews, however, can be of any religion.

Christianity is not a race because no-one is born into this world as a Christian.

Differently, a person is a Jew by being born of a Jewish mother.

Douggg said:

It is not a Jewish fable. It goes back to the days of Nehemiah and Ezra. And them shaming the caretaker Jews in Jerusalem, who had married non-Jewish wives and had children by them to send them away because it a repeat of what Solomon did that brought idols into Israel, and ended up in the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities.

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Speaking of Ezra.....I noticed a similarity of this event in Ezra 3 to Revelation 18...

Ezra 3 [Revelation 18:9]
12 And many of the priests, and the Levites, and the Chiefs of the fathers, the elders, who had seen the first House--in this house being founded before their eyes--are weeping with a loud voice, and many with a Shout, in Joy, lifting up the voice;
13 and the people are not discerning the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people, for the people are shouting--a great shout--and the noise hath been heard unto a distance.

What is meant by "house" in this verse? The Temple and Sanctuary?

Matthew 23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate

Revelation 18:9 [Ezra 3:12]
and shall be weeping and shall be wailing over Her the kings of the land,
the ones with her fornicating and indulging, whenever they may be observing the smoke of the refining fire/purwsewV <4451> of Her

Revelation 19:3 [Ezra 3:12]
And a second-time they have declared "allelouia!
and the smoke of Her is ascending into the ages of the ages

Douggg said:

Well, you got that part right. The Rothschilds are not the "I will" speaking in verses in Ezekiel 37.

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Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

See the "everlasting" covenant in Hebrews 13:20.
Who said He is the "sanctuary" in John 2:19-21?
Based on 1 Corinthians 3:16, who is in us?
Who is the descendant of David who rules forever?


Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

How long is "forevermore"?

How can anyone miss the resurrection of the dead at the beginning of the chapter, which is described in John 5:27-30?

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DavidPT said:

I think the point is perhaps this. There are only 7 trumpets in Revelation. According to Paul there is also the last trump. Many of us then conclude the 7th trumpet and the last trump, these are one and the same.

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7 fold woe in Rev echoes Lev 26's 7-fold woes for unbelief

BABerean2 said:

In other words Revelation 11:18 cannot be "the time" of the judgment of the dead, because it ruins your premill doctrine...

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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You may want to think that you have just to close the Book of Revelation after Revelation 11:18 and that the events written to happen after will just vanish ...Remember that Jesus said that He will Come AFTER THAT ALL THESE THINGS BE ACCOMPLISHED AS WRITTEN. Thus the 42 Months Reign of The Beast [Revelation 13 Through Revelation 18]that will PRECEDE THE COMING OF JESUS WILL BE UNAVOIDABLE FOR ALL THOSE WHO WILL HAVE THE MISFORTUNE TO BE ALIVE ON THE EARTH DURING THE END TIMES EVENTS.


So you are on your way for some big surprise ...in the eventuality that you are alive on the Earth during the End Times Events ....until then -that we all hope will not happen during our lifetime- so far so good .

Question :
Upon what the Book of Revelation tell us those who will STILL BE ALIVE ON THE EARTH DURING THE 42 Months Reign of The Beast ...WILL BE JUDGED ?

Do you think that Revelation 14:9-12 have been written for the extra-terrestrials ?

Revelation 14:9-12
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, IF ANY MAN worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here Is The Patience Of The Saints, They That Keep The Commandments Of God, And The Faith Of Jesus.

DavidPT said:

I think the point is perhaps this. There are only 7 trumpets in Revelation. According to Paul there is also the last trump. Many of us then conclude the 7th trumpet and the last trump, these are one and the same.

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Also, I would add that the 7 Messengers could be a type of Priests.

Notice the similarity of the 7 Priests with the Trumpets in Joshua 6 [Joshua being another name for Jesus] to the 7 Messengers with the 7 Trumpets in Revelation 8.
Oh, the might of His word!

Joshua 6:4 [Revelation 8:6]
and seven Priests shall bear seven trumpets/07782 showphar of the jubilees before the ark,
and in day the seventh ye shall compass the city seven of times, and the Priests shall blow in trumpets
16 and becoming in the seventh time, the Priests blew in trumpets, and Y@howshuwa` is saying to the people, "Shout ye, that Yahweh gave to ye the City;
20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the City, every man straight before him, and they took the city.

Like Joshua 6, the same kind of event is happening in Revelation with the 7 Messengers and 7 Trumpets but the Jerusalem is the City instead of Jericho.
Hebrews also mentions that event:

Hebrews 11:30
by faith the walls of Jericho/iericw <2410> did fall, having been surrounded upon seven days;

Revelation 8:6 [Joshua 6]
And the seven Messengers having the seven trumpets make ready themselves that they-should-be-trumpeting/salpiswsin <4537> (5661);

The City is fallen mentioned twice....very significant...

Revelation 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great City, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 18:
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird

LittleLambofJesus said:

Also, I would add that the 7 Messengers could be a type of Priests.

Notice the similarity of the 7 Priests with the Trumpets in Joshua 6 [Joshua being another name of Jesus] to the 7 Messengers with the 7 Trumpets in Revelation 8. Oh, the might of His word!

Joshua 6:4 [Revelation 8:6]
and seven Priests shall bear seven trumpets/07782 showphar of the jubilees before the ark,
and in day the seventh ye shall compass the city seven of times, and the Priests shall blow in trumpets
16 and becoming in the seventh time, the Priests blew in trumpets, and Y@howshuwa` is saying to the people, "Shout ye, that Yahweh gave to ye the City;
20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the City, every man straight before him, and they took the city. 21And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Like Joshua 6, the same kind of event is happening in Revelation with the 7 Messengers and 7 Trumpets but the Jerusalem is the City instead of Jericho.
Hebrews also mentions that event:

Hebrews 11:30
by faith the walls of Jericho/iericw <2410> did fall, having been surrounded upon seven days;

Revelation 8:6 [Joshua 6]
And the seven Messengers having the seven trumpets make ready themselves that they-should-be-trumpeting/salpiswsin <4537> (5661);

The City is fallen mentioned twice....very significant...

Revelation 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great City, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 18:
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird

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I like where you are going with this as long as none of this is implying events connected with 70 AD. Some people tend to see the events connected with 70 AD all throughout the book of Revelation. I disagree with those interpretations though. I feel the events of 70 AD are found nowhere in the book of Revelation myself.

Riberra said:

Do you think that Revelation 14:9-12 have been written for the extra-terrestrials ?

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As I have said on numerous occasions, the Book of Revelation is made up of overlapping visions.

The Second Coming of Christ is found at the end of Revelation 6, and Revelation 11:15-18, and the "harvest" of Revelation 14, and Revelation 16:15-16, and Revelation 19, and Revelation 20.

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
It is often produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 month period in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its context.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

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LittleLambofJesus said:

Also, I would add that the 7 Messengers could be a type of Priests.

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The 7 Trumpets will sound in Heaven ...The 7 Messengers sounding the 7 Trumpets are 7 Angels.

Why do you not stick with what is written in the Biblical Text ?

Revelation 8
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence IN HEAVEN about the space of half an hour.

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

BABerean2 said:

In other words Revelation 11:18 cannot be "the time" of the judgment of the dead, because it ruins your premill doctrine...

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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I'm Premil yet I don't disagree that it is the time of the dead according to that passage. I don't see the problem myself. If there are two resurrections according to Revelation 20, and that they occur at vastly different times, then the 7th trump is meaning it is the time of the dead in regards to the first resurrection only. How can it be the time of the dead for both? When the 7th trumpet sounds there will still be the wicked lost alive and well on planet earth. The time of the dead obviously involves raising the dead. In order to be raised from the dead though, one has to be dead first.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The text indicates that once the 7th trumpet has sounded, the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come---and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


One is to believe these angry nations are meaning physically dead people, that physically dead people are angry?

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

And what about this part, apparently meaning after the 7th trumpet has already sounded?-----and an earthquake, and great hail.

I'm pretty certain that only physically alive people at the time would be bothered by an earthquake, and great hail.

BABerean2 said:

As I have said on numerous occasions, the Book of Revelation is made up of overlapping visions.

The Second Coming of Christ is found at the end of Revelation 6, and Revelation 11:15-18, and the "harvest" of Revelation 14, and Revelation 16:15-16, and Revelation 19, and Revelation 20.

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
It is often produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 month period in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its context.

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Then that mean that the Great Tribulation will be the 42 months Reign of The Beast mentioned in [Revelation 13.]

One question:
Do you believe that the 42 Months Reign of The Beast [Revelation 13] will PRECEDE THE COMING OF JESUS ?

As a remembering of what will happen during the 42 months Reign of the Beast:

ALL those who will refuse to take the Mark and who will refuse to Worship the Beast and his image will be beheaded ...
Revelation 13:15-16
15 And it was given [unto him] to give breath to it, [even] to the image to the breast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead; 17 and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, [even] the name of the beast or the number of his name.

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Also, I would add that the 7 Messengers could be a type of Priests.

Notice the similarity of the 7 Priests with the Trumpets in Joshua 6 [Joshua being another name of Jesus] to the 7 Messengers with the 7 Trumpets in Revelation 8. Oh, the might of His word!

Click to expand...

DavidPT said:

I like where you are going with this as long as none of this is implying events connected with 70 AD. Some people tend to see the events connected with 70 AD all throughout the book of Revelation. I disagree with those interpretations though. I feel the events of 70 AD are found nowhere in the book of Revelation myself.

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You and/or others may want to check out this thread.
There are many who view Luke 21 as the destruction of Jerusalem ,while keeping Matthew 24 and Mark 13 separate/different event.......I say to that "hogwash"

Especially look at the greek word #3625

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/matt-24-14-luke-21-26-same-event-as-reve-3-10.8074686/

Matthew 24:14
“And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the earth/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625> as a witness to all the nations,
and then the end will come.

Luke 21:26 [Revelation 3:10]
“men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming upon the earth/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625>,
for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

3 times in Revelation:

Revelation 3:10 [Luke 21:26]
‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial which is about to be coming upon the whole earth/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625>,
to try those who dwell on the land.

Riberra said:

One question:
Do you believe that the 42 Months Reign of The Beast [Revelation 13] will PRECEDE THE COMING OF JESUS ?

As a remembering of what will happen during the 42 months Reign of the Beast:

ALL those who will refuse to take the Mark and who will refuse to Worship the Beast and his image will be beheaded ...

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Though you didn't ask me this as well, still I would like to somewhat address this. The 42 months reign of the beast does precede the 2nd coming. But as to the 7th trump though, that happens at the end of it's reign. Look at Revelation 11:19

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Where would you fit this part----and an earthquake, and great hail---within the timeline laid out in Revelation 13? This in verse 19 is meaning once the 7th trumpet has already sounded. When I look at Revelation 13, I see nothing hinting at any earthquake, and great hail, occurring within the 42 month reign of the beast. Yet Revelation 11:19 has to fit somewhere. I conclude it fits at the end of the reign of the beast.