Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Pneuma3

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You guys have darn near branded me, tarred and feathered me because of my Calvinist convictions.

So be it.

Don't even bother to reply, I WILL NOT RESPOND.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Sorry you feel that way DD, this is NOT about YOU as a person, it is about the views of eternal torment, annihilation and the salvation of all.

So how can people reason the scriptures with one another unless those views are discussed?
What I would truly like to see is a quid pro quo discussion on these topic where if you ask me a question I answer and if I ask you a question you answer, but this very seldom happens because people take it personally like you just did thinking we are picking on you, but again it is not about you, its about what you believe.
 
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he-man

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all that shows me is you can quote scripture, big deal.
Please explain why those scriptures are opposed to what we are commanded to teach.
You are not commanded to teach that everyone will be saved! You must first seek before you can find and if you do not seek you will not be in the Kingdom.
The angels with Christ will come and obliterate you whose mouth speaketh vanity. Only those people, who first trusted in Christ, whose God is the LORD will be allowed into the Kingdom.

Also only after that you believed, were you sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is of our pledge from God of an inheritance. Then only He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Those who have not believed, prior to death, will suffer the penalty which is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second

death.

So, have you repented, and if so, then why have ye not understood all these things? Such as as "a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"that our fathers fell asleep, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Where do you think David is Now? David is not ascended into the heavens:


He that overcometh shall inherit all things

Huh? If one believes....
Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

If one believes....
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

If one believes....
Psalms 144:11 Rid me, and deliver me from the hand of strange children, whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand is a right hand of falsehood:
15 Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD.


If one believes....
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


If one believes....
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Do you believe in the promises and in those who are asleep?
Matthew 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Do you believe in the promises and in those who are asleep?
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Do you believe in the promises and in those who are asleep?
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do you believe in the promises and in those who are asleep?
Acts of the Apostles 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts of the Apostles 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
 
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he-man

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Sorry you feel that way DD, this is NOT about YOU as a person, it is about the views of eternal torment, annihilation and the salvation of all.

So how can people reason the scriptures with one another unless those views are discussed?
What I would truly like to see is a quid pro quo discussion on these topic where if you ask me a question I answer and if I ask you a question you answer, but this very seldom happens because people take it personally like you just did thinking we are picking on you, but again it is not about you, its about what you believe.
annihilation is not the salvation of all.

Psalms 1:5  Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
 
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Pneuma3

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annihilation is not the salvation of all.

Psalms 1:5  Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

do you have a reading problem? no one said anything about annihilation being the salvation of all.
where do you come up with this stuff?
 
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Der Alte

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Did you or did you not us these scriptures
“Since according to you 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5 and 1 Corinthians 15:50 don't mean what they actually, literally say please tell me what Paul was talking about? If you can't or won't do that we have nothing further to talk about.”
In opposition to Paul stating we are commanded to teach Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN?
Please tell us all why those scriptures teach something contrary to 1 Timothy 4:10
Because that was your point in using them.
And if that was not your point why did you use them when I stated Paul tells us to teach Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men.

Yes I did quote those four passages they do not teach something contrary to 1 Tim 4:10 but they do disprove your false interpretation of 1 Tim.
Your the one who is saying they oppose each other so it is up to you to reconcile them, which you cannot do according to the doctrines of eternal torment or annihilation.[size]
Wrong! I am saying that your interpretation of 1 Tim is wrong based on other writings by Paul including the four passages I quoted. you can reconcile them, then do it don’t just talk about it.
I have no problem reconciling them, but you were the one who posted them so you are the one who needs to reconcile them for all to see
If you can reconcile them, then do it don’t just talk about it.
Then you should read Rev.22:14-17 and pay special attention to who it is that is without the gates of the city.
Rev 22:11-17
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
(17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Does not answer my request “A verse/verses which clearly, unequivocally states that the unrighteous will be given a second chance after death and ‘shall be changed, enter into the gates of the city, learn the commandments of God and partake of the water of life?’"
Is your argument that those who are still unjust and still unrighteous, v.11, , “sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” V. 15
“may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city” v. 14?
…..Where does this say that the unjust, the unrighteous, dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, and murderers, idolaters, and liars hear the Spirit and the bride, they are thirsty and will partake of the water of life? This passage is not statement that everybody will come, it is not a commandment but an invitation. Many do not accept the invitation in this life where is it written they will accept the invitation after death?

And who is that last enemies? DEATH
Wrong, again! “Death”, singular, not “deaths,” plural, is the last enemy. And there were many “enemies” plural, before the defeat of death. Those enemies will be Jesus’ footstool. When is that before or after God saves all of the unrighteous dead?”
Nonsense, I have already shown the bowing and confession is done in religious veneration and in honour and praise.
No you have only made an unsupported claim, quoting 100 year old, Thayer, that the bowing and confession is done in veneration, honor and praise. Here is the complete definition of kampto from BDAG one of, if not the, most highly accredited current Greek lexicons.

κάμπτω fut. κάμψω; 1 aor. ἔκαμψα; aor. pass. 3 pl. ἐκάμφθησαν Job 9:13, inf. καμφθῆναι 4 Macc 3:4. (Hom. et al.; pap, LXX, Philo).
① trans. to bend or incline some part of the body, bend, bow freq. as gesture of respect or devotion: τὸν τράχηλον the neck (Aesop, Fab. 452 p. 501, 12f P. ἔκαμψα τὸν ἐμαυτοῦ τράχηλον) B 3:2 (Is 58:5). γόνυ (also pl.) bend the knee as a sign of (religious) devotion (LXX) τινί before someone (SibOr 3, 616f) τῇ Βάαλ Ro 11:4 (3 Km 19:18). Also πρός τινα Eph 3:14. Fig. κ. τὰ γόνατα τῆς καρδίας (s. γόνυ) 1 Cl 57:1.
② intr. (Polyaenus 3, 4, 3 ἔκαμψεν=he bent inward) to assume a bending posture, bend (itself) ἐμοὶ κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ every knee shall bend before me Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23). ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ when the name of Jesus is proclaimed Phil 2:10 (also infl. by Is 45:23).—B. 542. Renehan ’75, 115f. DELG. M-M. TW.[1]


[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 507). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Note under number ①, “bend, bow freq. as gesture of respect or devotion:” Frequently does not mean always.
And did Jesus say that to the believers or the unbelievers. Hint it was to those who believe in him.
Is it your contention that at the judgment Jesus will tell many of His believers “Depart from me you workers of Iniquity. I never knew you?
Huh! Every post you make is contrary to what we are commanded to teach for we are commanded to teach Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.
Is there only one verse in your Bible. I have 31,172 verses in my Bible. In my Bible I read where Paul wrote to three churches Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus and in four passages he said that the unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, fornicators, unclean, lascivious, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, whoremongers, unclean persons, covetous and corruption will not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul was emphatic, he did not equivocate, he did not say “might not” or “maybe not.” Paul did not say anywhere that these 31 groups of unrighteous people would be saved no mater what.
Do you or do you not believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN?
I believe that Paul said Jesus is the savior of all men but, the same man, Paul also wrote the four passages I quoted. What is the proper way to reconcile 1 Tim 4:10 with the four passages I quoted? Here is an analogy. Donald Trump is the president of all Americans but all Americans do not accept him as their president. Jesus Christ is the savior of all men but all men do not/will not accept Him as their savior.
 
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Easy Listener

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Wrong!! Abraham did according to Jesus. And there were certainly others.

Jesus said if we keep his teaching we can know the truth. He wasn’t lying.
If a man or woman supposedly walking with Jesus doesn’t know where they will be when they die, they aren’t very close to Jesus. Paul knew where he was going and he wasn’t arrogantly ignorant. Stephen saw Jesus was standing to receive him. No arrogant ignorance there.

But there is a kind of democratic view in understanding. All men supposedly have the same understanding or they are verbally stoned. No one is supposed to know more about the kingdom of God that anyone else....or else you are called.. .unbelievably...ignorant.

My view is hell is a very bad place and all who go there will deeply regret it and suffer and i would never give anyone reason not to fear what Jesus clearly warned about.
I disagree.
 
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Pneuma3

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Yes I did quote those four passages they do not teach something contrary to 1 Tim 4:10 but they do disprove your false interpretation of 1 Tim.

How is stating the scripture exactly as it is written a false interpretation?



You cannot reconcile that scripture with the ones you used to say 1 Tim does not mean what it says. And you have yet, even though you have been asked a few times now, to explain what 1 Tim means if it does not mean what it says.







Wrong! I am saying that your interpretation of 1 Tim is wrong based on other writings by Paul including the four passages I quoted. you can reconcile them, then do it don’t just talk about it.

If you can reconcile them, then do it don’t just talk about it.




No no no, you are the one who challenged 1 Tim's plain meaning with those other scriptures so it is YOUR job to reconcile them if you can. Quit trying to wimp out by putting the onus on me.



Put up or admit you cannot reconcile them.



Once you admit that you cannot reconcile them I will show you how they are reconciled. But until you try to reconcile them everyone reading will know you are just wimping out.







Rev 22:11-17

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

(17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Does not answer my request “A verse/verses which clearly, unequivocally states that the unrighteous will be given a second chance after death and ‘shall be changed, enter into the gates of the city, learn the commandments of God and partake of the water of life?’"

Is your argument that those who are still unjust and still unrighteous, v.11, , “sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” V. 15

“may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city” v. 14?

…..Where does this say that the unjust, the unrighteous, dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, and murderers, idolaters, and liars hear the Spirit and the bride, they are thirsty and will partake of the water of life? This passage is not statement that everybody will come, it is not a commandment but an invitation. Many do not accept the invitation in this life where is it written they will accept the invitation after death?




You did not pay attention to who is without the gate when you were reading did you.



Now lets look at some scripture that shows forth what happens AFTER the new heaven and earth has been established, AFTER the New Jerusalem has been set up, and AFTER all judgment has passed, the saints within the city gates, the sinner outside of the gates of the city.



Note: pay special attention to who is without the gates of the city.





Revelation 22:14-17

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



Who is it that is without the gates of the city?

Who is it that has right to the tree of life?





15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.



Do these scriptures not show that those without the gates of the city, the

dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, have right to the tree of life? Do these scriptures not show that those without the gates may enter in through the gates into the city?



Of course they do, for who else is without the gates of the city but the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.







16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



AFTER the new heaven and earth has been established, AFTER the New Jerusalem has been set up, and AFTER all judgment has passed the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation teach that the Spirit and the bride no longer say come, that those who hear cannot come, that those who thirst cannot come and take of the water of life freely.













Wrong, again! “Death”, singular, not “deaths,” plural, is the last enemy. And there were many “enemies” plural, before the defeat of death. Those enemies will be Jesus’ footstool. When is that before or after God saves all of the unrighteous dead?”





Huh? Do you not realize what a footstool is used for? It is used for rest. Jesus will not rest until everyone comes into the fold.
 
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Pneuma3

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No you have only made an unsupported claim, quoting 100 year old, Thayer, that the bowing and confession is done in veneration, honor and praise. Here is the complete definition of kampto from BDAG one of, if not the, most highly accredited current Greek lexicons.

κάμπτω fut. κάμψω; 1 aor. ἔκαμψα; aor. pass. 3 pl. ἐκάμφθησαν Job 9:13, inf. καμφθῆναι 4 Macc 3:4. (Hom. et al.; pap, LXX, Philo).

① trans. to bend or incline some part of the body, bend, bow freq. as gesture of respect or devotion: τὸν τράχηλον the neck (Aesop, Fab. 452 p. 501, 12f P. ἔκαμψα τὸν ἐμαυτοῦ τράχηλον) B 3:2 (Is 58:5). γόνυ (also pl.) bend the knee as a sign of (religious) devotion (LXX) τινί before someone (SibOr 3, 616f) τῇ Βάαλ Ro 11:4 (3 Km 19:18). Also πρός τινα Eph 3:14. Fig. κ. τὰ γόνατα τῆς καρδίας (s. γόνυ) 1 Cl 57:1.

② intr. (Polyaenus 3, 4, 3 ἔκαμψεν=he bent inward) to assume a bending posture, bend (itself) ἐμοὶ κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ every knee shall bend before me Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23). ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ when the name of Jesus is proclaimed Phil 2:10 (also infl. by Is 45:23).—B. 542. Renehan ’75, 115f. DELG. M-M. TW.[1]

[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 507). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Note under number ①, “bend, bow freq. as gesture of respect or devotion:” Frequently does not mean always.




Well I will let clement's fine post answer that, which you have conveniently ignored.



"Appendix II: Every Knee Shall Bow"



This worship brings Him glory. A forced worship would not glorify or satisfy a loving God. ―This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me‖ (Mt. 15:8)¨ Paul links mouth confession with salvation. ―If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus…you will be saved…with the mouth confession is made unto salvation‖ (Ro. 10:9). ¨ ―No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit‖ (1Co. 12:3). This is strong evidence it refers to a sincere worship since fear alone could bring about a forced worship without the need of the Holy Spirit moving the heart. ¨ The phrase ―confess that Jesus Christ is Lord‖ was used in early baptismal services by which those being baptized expressed their commitment to Christ or declared they had been saved through Christ.2 Now, since ―under the earth‖ refers to the abode of the dead (or hell), then even in death an opportunity remains to confess Christ unto salvation. ¨ According to Vine, ―bow,‖ (kamptō per Strong‘s 2578, ―to bend‖) is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration (Ro.11:4, 14:11; Ep. 3:14; Ph. 2:10). [In contrast] sunkamptō signifies… to bend down by compulsory force‖ (Ro. 11:10). 1 ¨"God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Ph. 2:9-11 NAS). Is this forced worship, or one offered genuinely from the heart? Below are 20 points that together, I believe, unmistakably affirm true worship.

The word ―confess‖ in this passage is the same Greek word exomologeomai that Christ used in praising His Father in Mt. 11:25 and Lu. 10:21. It is used 11 times: Mt. 3:6; 11:25; Mk. 1:5; Lu. 10:21; 22:6; Ac. 19:18; Ro. 14:11; 15:9; Ph. 2:11; Ja. 5:16; and Re. 3:5. None of these can be seen as ―forced‖ praise. They relate to what flows naturally from the heart. For example, Jesus exclaimed, ―I heartily praise Thee, Father…that Thou hast hidden these things…‖ (Mt. 11:25 Wey). The NIV and the NAS read, ―I praise you Father.‖ Ro. 15:9 RSV states, ―I will praise thee among the Gentiles, and sing to thy name‖ (See the NIV, NAS, TEV, Phillips, Jerusalem Bible, RSV, NEB, WEY, and so forth). The Englishman‘s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament says exomologeomai is the Greek word used in Psalms for ―praise‖ (yadah) and ―give thanks‖ (hoday) in the Septuagint used in Christ‘s time. Simply reading Psalms confirms the genuine worship of Ph. 2:11.3¨ That this is true worship is confirmed in Re. 5:13 and by the entire context (Re. 5: 11-14) if they are related. ―Every creature in heaven and earth and under the earth…I heard saying: ‗Blessing, honor, glory, power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb‘…‖ (Re. 5:13). Why would these two contexts not be related? ¨



Ken Eckerty in an article titled, ―The Work of the Cross,‖ said: I think it‘s significant that the bowing of every knee and the confessing of every tongue is done ―in‖ the name of Jesus, not ―at‖ as translated by the KJV. Scholars such as Vincent, Robertson, Young, Rotherham, and Bullinger (just to name a few) all say that it is best translated ―in.‖ ―For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I.…‖ Mt.18:20 ―In‖ Christ‘s name implies an ―entering into‖ or an intimacy with His name. Confession ―in‖ His name cannot mean anything but intimacy. 4 To accurately understand Ph. 2:9-11, we must go to the Old Testament from where it is quoted. Let us look closely at Is. 45:21-25: 21.There is no other God beside Me, a just God and a Savior; there is¨" Those who are incensed against Him shall be ashamed (vs. 24). Being ashamed is usually a positive thing and often a sign of genuine repentance. 2Ch. 30:15;¨ ―Surely in the LORD I have righteousness‖ (vs. 24). Only a genuine believer could say this. Note that this is stated as an oath (vs. 23), making it especially pertinent. ¨none beside me. 22. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. 24. He shall say, ‗Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. 25.In the LORD all the descendents of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.‘ Ezra 9:5-7; Job 19:3; Jer. 6:13-15, 8:12, 12:13, 31:18- 20, Ez. 16:60-63, 36:31-33; 2Th. 3:14-15.



―How awesome are Your works! Through the greatness of Your power Your enemies shall submit themselves to You. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to You; they shall sing praises to Your name. Selah. Come and see the works of God; He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men (Ps. 66:3-5).‖ Certainly these passages together with Ph. 2:11 all point to the same glorious worship (Re. 5:13)!¨ ―He is able even to subdue all ―things‖ to Himself (Ph. 3:21).‖ Note: ―things‖ is not in the Greek and that this is said in the very same letter! ¨ ―Because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea (Mic. 7:18-19).‖Is subduing iniquity forcing insincere worship? ¨"―All the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory‖ (vs. 25). Justification and glory are undeniable evidences of genuine repentance.



"In Ps. 66:3-5, God is described twice as ―awesome‖ in the very context of ―enemies submitting themselves‖ through His ―great‖ power. And this mind you, is all in the context of ―all the earth‖ worshiping and singing praises to God! David then invites us to come and see how awesome is His doing toward humanity! Where is ―forced‖ worship here? As well, they are ―submitting themselves,‖ not ―being‖ submitted. Relative to Mic. 7:18-19, how can a ―compassionate subduing‖ from a God ―delighting in mercy‖ (in the very context of sins cast away) possibly coincide with a forced worship of those eternally being tormented in hell? Now Ph. 3: 21 is found in the very same letter as our key text, making it particularly pertinent. It affirms that God‘s power is ―even able‖ to do something. ―Even able‖ implies something extraordinarily impressive. A compelled submission by brute force is not particularly impressive. But a God winning the hearts of His enemies through His sacrificial love on the cross—that is impressive! That‘s what makes Him truly a most ―awesome‖ and all powerful God!



"―He humbled Himself…even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him…that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow‖ (Ph. 2:8-9). Every knee bows because of the cross. The word ―therefore‖ links the cross with worship. To deny genuine worship at the foot of the cross is to strip this passage of all its meaning. Worse, it strips the cross of its power to save and insults the Spirit of grace (He. 10:29). Talbott asks: Now just what is the power of the Cross, according to Paul? Is it the power of a conquering hero to compel His enemies to obey Him against their will? If that had been Paul‘s doctrine, it would have been strange indeed, for God had no need of a crucifixion to compel obedience. He was quite capable of doing that all along. God sent His Son into the world, not as a conquering hero, but as a suffering servant; and the power that Jesus unleashed as He bled on the Cross was precisely the power of self-giving love, the power to overcome evil by transforming the wills and renewing the minds of the evil ones themselves. ⁵



"The cross of Christ is the greatest power in the universe because it alone can melt the hearts of God‘s enemies, and make them His friends. As John Milton, the famous 17th century English author wrote, ―Who overcomes by force hath overcome but half his foe.‖ 6



Finally, some will say, ―Of course they‘ll confess then, it will all be too obvious. There will be no merit to confessing then.‖ But are we saved by merit? Where is boasting? It is excluded (Ro. 3:27). We, as the Church, have stripped this passage of its full glory. The bottom line is the love of God will do what His power alone could never do: conquer the hearts of His enemies and make them His friends.¨ God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name…. What kind of a worship, sincere or genuine, would highly exalt Christ? I know which one would lowly exalt Him. ¨ ―When all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him that God may be all in all‖ (1Co. 15:28). The Greek word for ―subject‖ is the same word applied to Christ. Can it be questioned that Christ‘s submission is not freely given? Moreover, would God be all in subjects forcefully subjugated? ¨ God Himself works in them ―to will.‖ Does God working in the hearts of His children to will to do His good pleasure mean only a forced submission? The question is its own refutation. ¨ Salvation is directly mentioned here. ―Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore…work out your own salvation…for God works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure‖ (Ph. 2:11-13). The word ―therefore‖ is very significant, for it links the confession that Jesus is Lord directly with salvation. ¨"



"Why did I go into such detail over this one verse? Because this passage is very well known, quoted, and even sung about. Sadly, it is not truly appreciated for its glorious meaning. I think any honest reflection of these twenty points must agree with the evidence presented, that Ph. 2:9-11 affirms sincere and heartfelt worship."









Is it your contention that at the judgment Jesus will tell many of His believers “Depart from me you workers of Iniquity. I never knew you?





Yup, as that is what the scriptures show.







Is there only one verse in your Bible. I have 31,172 verses in my Bible. In my Bible I read where Paul wrote to three churches Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus and in four passages he said that the unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, fornicators, unclean, lascivious, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, whoremongers, unclean persons, covetous and corruption will not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul was emphatic, he did not equivocate, he did not say “might not” or “maybe not.” Paul did not say anywhere that these 31 groups of unrighteous people would be saved no mater what.



No one is saying they will inherit the kingdom in those states, get your facts straight, they will be washed anew just as we have been when we where in those states. Or did you forget that you were once in those states.



I believe that Paul said Jesus is the savior of all men but, the same man, Paul also wrote the four passages I quoted. What is the proper way to reconcile 1 Tim 4:10 with the four passages I quoted? Here is an analogy. Donald Trump is the president of all Americans but all Americans do not accept him as their president. Jesus Christ is the savior of all men but all men do not/will not accept Him as their savior.





Lame. Trump is still the president and Jesus is still the saviour of ALL MEN whether you accept it or not.
surly that is not how you try to reconcile 1 Tim with those other scriptures is it? Because I just undid it.
Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, whether you accept it as gospel or not, and if not you are indeed teaching another gospel and rejecting what we are commanded to teach.
 
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I don’t believe that. It isn’t like any parable at all. And the whole teaching rests on it being real. If it never happened, it teaches us nothing. It like assuming Cinderella teaches young girls information about finding a mate.
Actually, I disagree. It is the last of a whole series of parables. An interesting note: The following cases can be made:
1. The purple and linen represent the jewish priesthood.
2. The five brothers represent the five brothers of Judah https://www.christianforums.com/thr...le-of-rich-man-lazarus.1151098/#post-10574089
3. Or, the five brothers represent the five brothers of Caiaphas
4. The reference to lazarus coming back from the dead not being convincing to the five brothers looks forward to Christ's resurrection...
5. Or, it looks forward to the resurrection of Lazarus.

This is a very good rundown:
https://www.wake-up.org/bible-characters/rich-man-lazarus.html

As is this one:
http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html

Thanks to the internet, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man has not only been heavily discussed, but the various interpretations have been given ample opportunity to be supported by their adherents to the point that the truth pretty clearly percolates to the top. :)
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I disagree.
It’s a direct statement from the Bible. Jesus said Abraham
saw his day and was glad. Same with the other statement.

But you aren’t the first to disagree with Jesus.
 
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It’s a direct statement from the Bible. Jesus said Abraham
saw his day and was glad. Same with the other statement.

But you aren’t the first to disagree with Jesus.
I don't disagree with Jesus. I disagree with your interpretation of scripture.

We see as though a glass darkly, but then, face to face. We'll know more later.
 
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Sorry you feel that way DD, this is NOT about YOU as a person, it is about the views of eternal torment, annihilation and the salvation of all.

So how can people reason the scriptures with one another unless those views are discussed?
What I would truly like to see is a quid pro quo discussion on these topic where if you ask me a question I answer and if I ask you a question you answer, but this very seldom happens because people take it personally like you just did thinking we are picking on you, but again it is not about you, its about what you believe.
This happened to me when I tried to discuss it with a deacon in my first church when I moved to my new home. I had to change churches. I didn't want do sew strife.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I don't disagree with Jesus. I disagree with your interpretation of scripture.
But this is what I said you disagree with:

Wrong!! Abraham did according to Jesus. And there were certainly others.

Jesus said if we keep his teaching we can know the truth.

So you disagree with Jesus.

We see as though a glass darkly, but then, face to face. We'll know more later.
Some know more now.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Actually, I disagree. It is the last of a whole series of parables. An interesting note: The following cases can be made:
1. The purple and linen represent the jewish priesthood.
2. The five brothers represent the five brothers of Judah https://www.christianforums.com/thr...le-of-rich-man-lazarus.1151098/#post-10574089
3. Or, the five brothers represent the five brothers of Caiaphas
4. The reference to lazarus coming back from the dead not being convincing to the five brothers looks forward to Christ's resurrection...
5. Or, it looks forward to the resurrection of Lazarus.

This is a very good rundown:
https://www.wake-up.org/bible-characters/rich-man-lazarus.html

As is this one:
http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html

Thanks to the internet, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man has not only been heavily discussed, but the various interpretations have been given ample opportunity to be supported by their adherents to the point that the truth pretty clearly percolates to the top. :)
If one cannot think and one never talks to God about His word, I guess one asks the internet.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Jesus said if we keep his teaching we can know the truth.

So you disagree with Jesus.
Not necessarily (I didn't look back at the previous posts)...

Someone might "keep his teaching" and still not yet know the truth. Maybe never.

Most people, according to the Bible, think they are "keeping his teaching" when in fact they are far far from His Teaching, far far from His Word and far far from Yahweh the Creator.
They don't find out until judgment day that they are cast out.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Thanks to the internet, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man has not only been heavily discussed, but the various interpretations have been given ample opportunity to be supported by their adherents to the point that the truth pretty clearly percolates to the top.
Sorry, no, that's not truth.

For the most part, lies are published, and people still prefer them, they actually choose to believe the lies instead of the truth ,
partly because the lies are P O P U L A R ! (and published the most)....

IT is still as Jesus Said all the time, IF you seek the truth and stand up for the truth, you will be kicked out of the groups you have been in (even often your own family),
and because you seek and stand up for the truth,
you will be hated by all. (the world/ around us)
Don't worry, they hate you because they hate ME (JESUS).
 
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But this is what I said you disagree with:

Wrong!! Abraham did according to Jesus. And there were certainly others.

Jesus said if we keep his teaching we can know the truth.

So you disagree with Jesus.
What do you mean "Abraham did according to Jesus" in regards to what I said.

And when do you think we will know the "whole" truth? I dare say that the only man to ever walk the earth ever, while in this earthly body, knew the whole truth was Jesus himself.

So yes, we all know the truth, but the more you study, the more of the truth you "know". But be careful that you do not share what you "believe" as what you "know" regarding things you have not directly already experienced.

Salvation is not dependent on what I know. It is dependent on what I believe. And even then the discussion regarding predestination can be sparked with that remark.
 
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