Soul sleep or heaven which is the truth?

BukiRob · Jul 23, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Jesus was in paradise when he was dead right ? So he was both in paradise and death at the same time .

Luke 23:43 King James Version (KJV)
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The original text in Greek has no grammar the COMMA is a placement device that is relatively new (several hundreds of years)

If you move the comma FROM the word thee to TODAY it COMPLETELY changes what Yeshua is saying AND is consistent with how Christ spoke of death, How Paul spoke of death and what the Ancient view of death by the Patriarchs and upto David himself view Death... As a sleep IN THE GRAVE

Chinchilla · Jul 23, 2018

BukiRob said:
Why do you strive against scripture

27 And inasmuch as it is [a]appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Why do you distort what scripture actually says...

It says that Enoch walked with G-d and HE WAS NO MORE for G-d took him...

Why do you ASSUME that Enoch Did not die? How do you know that G-d had not set them aside for the future? Where do the 2 witnesses come from in Rev?

It is appointed to man once to die yes , appointed not required . Lazarus died two times so did Paul .

It's strange that every person from Adam in that passage has his death but no Enoch , then Enoch is said that he walked with God the rest did not , and where did God toake him ?

Chinchilla · Jul 23, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Here's a different account (I never saw before a couple minutes ago) of the same verse et al >>>>
11 And it happened, as they were going on and speaking, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire came. And they separated between them both, and Elijah went up in a whirlwind to the skies.(fn1) (2Chron 21:12)

(fn1) 1 The word for “translated” in most bibles means to “take from one place to another”. Elijah did not go to the third heaven, which is the throne of YAHWEH, which no man has ever gone ( Joh 3:13), but he was taken across the sky to another mountain somewhere as he had on other occasions (1 Kgs 18:11-12, 2 Kgs 2:16). He later wrote to King Jerhoram (2 Chron 21:12), which proved he was still on the earth and not in heaven.

There are two Eljah did you not mistake them ? One did 8 miracles the other 16 I believe .

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 23, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Jesus was in paradise when he was dead right ? So he was both in paradise and death at the same time .

Luke 23:43 King James Version (KJV)
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

No.
IF Jesus was in paradise, He was not somewhere else dead also.
SINCE Jesus did not ascend until (how many days later) ,
He was not in Paradise yet, and neither could the thief be.

Neither Jesus nor anyone else can be , Scripturally, present and dead at one place, and present and alive somewhere else, ever. No where in Scripture does that ever happen.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 23, 2018

Chinchilla said:
There are two Eljah did you not mistake them ? One did 8 miracles the other 16 I believe .

Do you mean these two >>>>>
Why did Elisha request a double portion of Elijah's spirit? - Got ...

https://www.gotquestions.org/Elisha-double-portion.html
Answer: The idea of a double portion in the Bible is one of a double blessing. ... The request by Elisha for a double portion of Elijah's spirit in 2 Kings 2 ... as many miracles through Elisha (28 miracles) as took place through Elijah (14 miracles). ...

Chinchilla · Jul 23, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
No.
IF Jesus was in paradise, He was not somewhere else dead also.
SINCE Jesus did not ascend until (how many days later) ,
He was not in Paradise yet, and neither could the thief be.

Neither Jesus nor anyone else can be , Scripturally, present and dead at one place, and present and alive somewhere else, ever. No where in Scripture does that ever happen.

Yea exactly my point . Jesus did not ascend when he was dead . Paradise in down in earth and is not heaven . Jesus died and descend into lower parts of earth .

Ephesians 4:9
“(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?”

Then he rose from dead , showed to Mary Magdalene and said touch me not I have not yet ascended , then he ascended .

Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise , not in 3 days after I rose from dead but today .

PROPHECYKID · Jul 23, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Your statement does not make sense .
Christ is not dead .

It's Christian only forum so I assume that you know Christ is not dead.

Well Jesus was resurrected so he is alive. But lets say someone like David who was not resurrected, is he dead?

Chinchilla · Jul 23, 2018

PROPHECYKID said:
Well Jesus was resurrected so he is alive. But lets say someone like David who was not resurrected, is he dead?

Mark 12:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Daniel body is dead.
Soul not dead.

Daniel was born of women tho not born of spirit of God .

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 23, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Yea exactly my point . Jesus did not ascend when he was dead . Paradise in down in earth and is not heaven . Jesus died and descend into lower parts of earth .

Ephesians 4:9
“(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?”

Then he rose from dead , showed to Mary Magdalene and said touch me not I have not yet ascended , then he ascended .

Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise , not in 3 days after I rose from dead but today .

Sorry, no. Mixed (tradition instead of His Word) up some again/still .... I will have to pause though.... maybe continue this evening ..... Yahweh permitting.....

PROPHECYKID · Jul 23, 2018

Chinchilla said:
2 Kings 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

Eljah in grave sleeping or in heaven ?

What happened with Elijah was obviously very special. Elijah never saw death. But David did, and he is not in heaven.

PROPHECYKID · Jul 23, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Mark 12:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Daniel body is dead.
Soul not dead.

Daniel was born of women tho not born of spirit of God .

So you believe in the immortality of the soul.

Chinchilla · Jul 23, 2018

PROPHECYKID said:
What happened with Elijah was obviously very special. Elijah never saw death. But David did, and he is not in heaven.

David comforted with Abraham and Lazarus and these who knew God and believed in him in paradise . They wait for Israel resurrection to enter the heavenly city after tribulation ends .

Bible2+ · Jul 23, 2018

Neostarwcc said in post #1:

Its always been in my opinion that dead people ultimately end up in either heaven or hell.

That's right.

For regarding the mistaken idea of "soul sleep", only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4), or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21), or in fiery punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' future, Second Coming, He will bring with Him from heaven all of the souls of all obedient Christians who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent Millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), all of the souls in hell (i.e. all non-Christians who have ever died) will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which is the second death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will suffer along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

Also, the future, eternal, conscious suffering of all non-Christians must not be considered as eternal life, but as an eternal, conscious, ongoing, second death (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45b-46).

Bible2+ · Jul 23, 2018

Chinchilla said in post #272:

David comforted with Abraham and Lazarus and these who knew God and believed in him in paradise . They wait for Israel resurrection to enter the heavenly city after tribulation ends .

All obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the Church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus Christ into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all of the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

Currently, the third heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where obedient Christians go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So obedient Christians go to the third heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when obedient Christians go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 24, 2018

re 274 there is no 'church' in heaven, there are many believers outside the 'church' on earth, and as for the rest of the post, it comes from some school or church somewhere not in line with all Scripture apparently so, well, (readers) take care what you listen to and do not accept anything that is contrary to Scripture . Test everything.

Chinchilla · Jul 24, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Sorry, no. Mixed (tradition instead of His Word) up some again/still .... I will have to pause though.... maybe continue this evening ..... Yahweh permitting.....

What Bible version do you use ? Is KJV bad ?

BukiRob · Jul 24, 2018

Bible2+ said:
That's right.

For regarding the mistaken idea of "soul sleep", only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4), or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21), or in fiery punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' future, Second Coming, He will bring with Him from heaven all of the souls of all obedient Christians who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent Millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), all of the souls in hell (i.e. all non-Christians who have ever died) will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which is the second death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will suffer along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

Also, the future, eternal, conscious suffering of all non-Christians must not be considered as eternal life, but as an eternal, conscious, ongoing, second death (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45b-46).

Gee the problem you have is you are teaching the Immortal soul yet Yeshua clearly indicates that the soul is NOT immortal so you have a major fundamental flaw in your belief

BobRyan · Jul 24, 2018

Chinchilla said:
1. Jesus sit on right hand of father in heaven.
2. Dead person is with Lord.
3. therefore Dead person is in heaven.

"And so shall we ever be WITH the LORD" 1 Thess 4 is not a reference to death - but rather to resurrection at the 2nd coming

BobRyan · Jul 24, 2018

PROPHECYKID said:
So physically dead but spiritually alive?

Yeah that would be a great Bible text... got one?

Chinchilla · Jul 24, 2018

BobRyan said:
"And so shall we ever be WITH the LORD" 1 Thess 4 is not a reference to death - but rather to resurrection at the 2nd coming

2 Corinthians 5:8 not 1 Thess 4

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