What about the 2 witnesses Revelation 11

TribulationSigns said:

This does not prevent His Saints who have died from coming into heaven to be with Christ.

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No, it doesn't, but everything in time. Nobody goes to heaven until the last day. Just as nobody goes to the lake of fire until the last day. If it were not so, then everybody would be judged upon death, and there would be no need for the throne room judgment. But there is a need for the throne room judgment. That's the day we are judged and found worthy or guilty. Not a day sooner.

Paul of Eugene OR said:

You've got to tie the witnesses to their descriptions, the clues in Revelation. Who called for fire out of the sky to burn the enemy? Who called for the sky to be shut and the rain witheld? Has to be the prophet Elijah. Who turned water to blood and submitted the earth to plagues? Has to be Moses. So Moses is the law, and Elijah is THE prophet .

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Only if you believe those clues are literal. Couldn't fire out of the sky be symbolic? Couldn't rain and no-rain be symbolic? Couldn't water turned to blood be symbolic?

Paul of Eugene OR said:

. . hence it is reasonable to link the witnesses to the law and the prophets, or the Scriptures. And it doesn't hurt this identification when we note that the Scriptures are, actually, witnesses.

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Yes, but what is truly a witness for God? Is it a person who proclaims His name on the street corner? Or is it truth and righteousness?

Paul of Eugene OR said:

I noted earlier they are "dead" in that radical skepticism has taken away belief in the scriptures. Have you noticed how even secular, unbelieving people will give presents to each other at Christmas time?

Rev 11:10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
NASU

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People will hate righteousness. Evil will be considered good, and good evil. They hate you because they hated me first. People who love darkness hate the light.

LastSeven said:

Nobody goes to heaven until the last day.

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I disagree. Not according to Scripture.

Just as nobody goes to the lake of fire until the last day.

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Philippians 1:21

• "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain".

Gain because we'll finally be at our destination with the Lord IN HEAVEN! The moment we die! While the souls of the unsaved don't live or have conscious existence being in silence, the souls of those raised in Christ go to Heaven to live with Him! This contrast is again gloriously illustrated in Revelations Chapter 20, where speaking of the souls of the believers who were martyred, it says they lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years. Then it contrasts that with the rest of those who died, saying,

Revelation 20:5

• "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection".

Clearly, there are two dead being spoken of here. The souls of the believers who died going to "live" and reign with Christ, having a part in the first resurrection. And that contrasted with the souls of the unbelievers who died who live not again until the 1000 years are up. In other words, until the second Resurrection when these condemned will be raised to stand for judgment. Two destinations for the souls of the dead depending upon their Salvation. That place where the souls of the unsaved go is hell, waiting for Hell! A hell is a place or state of non-life in silence awaiting the real Hell of eternal punishment after they have raised again (second resurrection) to life to stand before God and be sentenced.

Hell is the synonym for death. The first Death (Hell) is this place of silence. The second death (Hell) is the lake of fire! One is reserved for the other, and at the Judgment day, they will be cast into the other. For example,

Revelation 20:13-14

• "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".

In other words, death was cast into death, and Hell into Hell. And so when we think of hell, though we often think of the final Hell (lake of fire), we must keep in mind that there is a hell of reserving FOR the Hell which is judgment. A separation from God and punishment for sins which will cause great torment. Just as there is a death for the unsaved, which is merely a reserving for the second death of judgment.

2nd Peter 2:4

• "For if God spared not the messengers that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

So you see, this is a Hell just as surely as the Hell that Jesus spoke about in the parable of Lazarus of flames and torment. One hell reserved for the final judgment Hell. For one hell is a synonym for death, and of those under condemnation. All the scriptures lead to the same un-escapable conclusion. That the Judgment or punishment of Hell is not annihilation as some believe, but the wrath of God poured out on the wicked in punishment forever. So let us not be confused by death and hell being used in two different ways. They are synonymous with one being the reserved end, for the other.

Again, those who took part of the first resurrection (born again in Christ), will not worry about staying in a grave in silence but to be absent from the body and immediately go up into heaven and live with Christ. And Christ will bring them down with Him down at the Second Coming where we who are alive and remain will meet with them in the air.

If it were not so, then everybody would be judged upon death, and there would be no need for the throne room judgment. But there is a need for the throne room judgment. That's the day we are judged and found worthy or guilty. Not a day sooner.

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Revelation 20:11-12

• "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
• And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

What dead are these? Certainly not the dead that lived and reigned with Christ being absent from the body, see? But only the dead who lived not again until the 1000 years were over. Harmony with the word, but not with Postmillennialism, Premillennialism nor Preterism.

TribulationSigns said:

Hell is the synonym for death. The first Death (Hell) is this place of silence. The second death (Hell) is the lake of fire! One is reserved for the other, and at the Judgment day, they will be cast into the other. For example,

Revelation 20:13-14

• "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".

In other words, death was cast into death, and Hell into Hell.

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I think you would benefit from a study on "hell" as it is used in scripture.

You will find that there actually is no hell, at least not as a place of eternal punishment. The word translated as hell in Revelation 20:13 is "Hades". Sometimes the word Sheol and Gehenna are also translated as hell. Sheol and Hades both mean "the grave" and you'll notice that both the wicked and the righteous go to Sheol. It's not for the wicked only.

Gehenna refers to the garbage dump outside Jerusalem where the Israelites used to sacrifice their children to Molek in fire.

In other words, Revelation 20:14 is saying that "the grave" is cast into the lake of fire, which means nobody will ever die again.

LastSeven said:

I think you would benefit from a study on "hell" as it is used in scripture.

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you would benefit from a study on terminology- such terms as the Last Day - Day of the Lord - you'll find they are more than just some period of 24 hours.
It has been shown to you that upon death of the body the spirit is separated from the body and goes to be with the Lord while the body decays - notice that in the event of cremation or other manner of say explosion/ the body no longer exists - the spirit has left the body -
you'll have to come to the point of understanding that various words that speak of a person - personage - the parts that comprise of the identity of personage/personality/thoughts/feelings/understandings/choices etc are not part of the body that dies ; they are part of the soul/spirit that does not die
The soul/spirit separates from the body upon death of the body

The scriptures are trying to show the reader that this is all about Choice - Choose this day whom you will serve Joshua 24 . As long as the body is alive a person may be saved or unsaved - if a person dies in the unsaved condition their soul/spirit will never be with the Lord but will spend eternity with satan in the lake of fire - if a person dies "in Christ" they are saved and their soul/spirit goes to be with the Lord upon death - there is no such thing as a person who dies naturally having their soul/spirit remaining with the dead body , just as the soul/spirit separates from the body that is cremated so it is separated from the body that is buried

While a person is still alive in their body they can choose to either serve Jesus or not to serve him , but whatever choice they have made when the body dies becomes Permanent and cannot be changed - so the scriptures on the topic are therefore attempting to help people realize that a choice needs to be made while they are yet alive IF they want to spend eternity with Jesus as it is not something that happens without first making that choice to serve HIM

Regardless of how you choose to interpret 'hell' the most important thing to understand is - that when your body dies , your soul/spirit will separated from the body and will go to either one of two places - either with the LORD Jesus eternally IF and Only if the person has made the Choice to serve Jesus with all of their heart mind/soul/spirit
Or their soul/spirit will not go to be with Jesus but it will go into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth in torment because they chose Not to serve Jesus

seventysevens said:

there is no such thing as a person who dies naturally having their soul/spirit remaining with the dead body

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I think you're misunderstanding my position. I'm not saying the spirit stays with the body. I'm saying we don't have a spirit. Our creator said we are nothing more than dust. Why would I doubt that? And why do you?

TribulationSigns said:

Revelation 20:11-12

• "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
• And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

What dead are these? Certainly not the dead that lived and reigned with Christ being absent from the body, see? But only the dead who lived not again until the 1000 years were over. Harmony with the word, but not with Postmillennialism, Premillennialism nor Preterism.

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You think those who lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years reigned while they were absent from the body? Where do you get that from?

LittleLambofJesus said:

Who/what are the 2 witnesses symbolizing in Reve 11.
The powers they have are similar to those of Moses and Elijah, whom appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration. Discuss........

Revelation 11:
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and one said, Rise! and measure! the Sanctuary of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
2 And the Court, which is without the Sanctuary, be casting out! outside, and measure it not;
for it hath been given unto the Nations:
and the holy City shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

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Just want to jog your thoughts a little on the subject.

John doesn't give us the measurements or the count of people that worship. He also doesn't say he actually did it other than that he got the instruction to do it. Why is this?

It seems a pointless instruction with no conclusion. Why is this?

What is the purpose?

LastSeven said:

You think those who lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years reigned while they were absent from the body? Where do you get that from?

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Scripture! I gave you the verses. Up to you to receive it or not. Not my job. It's the Holy SPIRIT!

LastSeven said:

Only if you believe those clues are literal. Couldn't fire out of the sky be symbolic? Couldn't rain and no-rain be symbolic? Couldn't water turned to blood be symbolic?

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To me, those phrases are plainly there to aid in identification of the witnesses.

TribulationSigns said:

Scripture! I gave you the verses. Up to you to receive it or not. Not my job. It's the Holy SPIRIT!

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But none of the scripture says "absent from the body during the thousand year reign". At least not that I've seen. Perhaps you can be a bit more specific.

Paul of Eugene OR said:

To me, those phrases are plainly there to aid in identification of the witnesses.

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Sure, but that doesn't mean they're literal. The Bible, especially Revelation, is full of symbolism that aids in understanding.

LastSeven said:

Sure, but that doesn't mean they're literal. The Bible, especially Revelation, is full of symbolism that aids in understanding.

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Seeing the scriptures, aka the law and the prophets, as the identity of the witnesses is not a literal interpretation.

LastSeven said:

But none of the scripture says "absent from the body during the thousand year reign". At least not that I've seen. Perhaps you can be a bit more specific.

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I already explained my positions with these two verses. You can read it over and over and THINK what happened to souls' bodies when they died, They went to heaven! This is how they got absent from their bodies!

The souls of the unbelievers, however, remain in their bodies, in their graves, until the Second Resurrection to stand for judgment. Their souls will not "live again" until Christ resurrect them at the Second Coming. This is when the sea gave up their dead! I gave you the verses to support this, too. Go back and read my posts again and again and again.

You mean these verses?

Revelation 20:11-12

• "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
• And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Sorry, but I fail to see how this proves anything you've said. Especially in light of all the verses I gave you that prove we are nothing more than dust. And in light of Paul's telling of our resurrection and our transformation into spiritual beings when Jesus returns.

You seem to use the word "soul" and "spirit" interchangeably too, as so many people do, which tells me that you haven't really researched the meanings of the words.

And you haven't even addressed the most basic problem with your position: If Jesus said he would raise us up on the last day, but you're saying that we are already immortal spirits, then what is the point of the resurrection?

LastSeven said:

Sure, but that doesn't mean they're literal. The Bible, especially Revelation, is full of symbolism that aids in understanding.

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It looks like a crazy dream - it's going to take someone crazy enough to understand it - that's were I come in

LittleLambofJesus said:

I think you may be right......It ain't gonna be a perty thing to see..........

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:-/