"our fathers among the saints" (EO, OO)

Psalti hats ??

please elucidate

archer75 said:

Is the antidoron wine also cut with water like the wine they use for Communion? It tastes like it, but I never asked.

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In a word - YES

Our little place is so tiny we can see what goes on in the Altar. After the Zeon has been added to the Chalice [ we can even see the steam rising ] then some more hot water is added to the wine used for zapivka and the cup is put in the centre of the dish [ is there a correct term for this ? ] and the blessed bread is put round it. That is then brought out of the Altar by the server and put on the table where we pass after Receiving Eucharist

archer75 said:

Roughly like this, I hope?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Eastern_Orthodox_saint_titles

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no, haha, those are actually often in the name.

as an example, Venerable Mother Xenia of St Petersburg, Fool-for-Christ

Anhelyna said:

Psalti hats ??

please elucidate

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These guys. The visitor wanted to know the meaning of the hand gestures. I had no idea. So I asked on FB and I think it was an iconographer friend who told me those hats were used on psaltis at some period/place and the hand symbols are for directing chanters. I've actually learned more about the directing since then but I knew nothing of either last fall.

I may be wrong by calling them "psalti hats" but I wasn't sure what else to call them.

Oh I take your point about the nomenclature

I'd just never heard the term before - or seen that example

I’m afraid I’d be making that same face if I were compelled to wear those hats?!!

~Anastasia~ said:

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These guys. The visitor wanted to know the meaning of the hand gestures. I had no idea. So I asked on FB and I think it was an iconographer friend who told me those hats were used on psaltis at some period/place and the hand symbols are for directing chanters. I've actually learned more about the directing since then but I knew nothing of either last fall.

I may be wrong by calling them "psalti hats" but I wasn't sure what else to call them.

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Odd they are looking at each other. I think that's an icon of the Elevation of the Holy Cross - I think everyone else in the icon is looking at the Cross.

But the guy on the left is looking the other direction.

Then again, when coordinating the chanting, we HAVE to look at each other. Maybe that was intentional.

archer75 said:

Great observation!! I love that the iconographer thought of this!

What a stellar thread...whoever started it should get all the credit - and royalties.

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Gurney deserves the credit for my observation. I wanted to see their expressions. I was surprised to see the direction of the one man's eyes.

At least now I can guess the reason for the expression. Not the hats lol.

~Anastasia~ said:

Gurney deserves the credit for my observation. I wanted to see their expressions. I was surprised to see the direction of the one man's eyes.

At least now I can guess the reason for the expression. Not the hats lol.

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Is there any special meaning to the way figures/saint in the Icons are facing?

Many face right and some are facing left. Because everything in an Icon has a meaning, I was wondering if the direction the figure is facing has any special meaning?

In many icons there is hidden meaning. Take the Resurrection icon and a few others showing Christ saving/pulling on someone. NEVER does the Lord take anyone by the hand. He grabs them by the wrists!! It is done to show how Christ condescends and does the true work of salvation! It is not a cooperative enterprise but HIM saving us!

Then with colors, red symbolizes Godhead, blue humanity. Jesus has a red undergarment and blue on the outside garment to show He is God clothed in flesh. The Theotokos Mary is blue underneath red on the outside for the reverse reason! She was set apart special to bear God’s Son!

SashaMaria said:

Is there any special meaning to the way figures/saint in the Icons are facing?

Many face right and some are facing left. Because everything in an Icon has a meaning, I was wondering if the direction the figure is facing has any special meaning?

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SashaMaria said:

Is there any special meaning to the way figures/saint in the Icons are facing?

Many face right and some are facing left. Because everything in an Icon has a meaning, I was wondering if the direction the figure is facing has any special meaning?

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There is much symbolism and teaching in the icons. I only know a little and it's still a lot.

There isn't much I know about the way figures are facing except that you will normally see both eyes (facing at least somewhat toward the viewer) - of Saints or holy people. Judas Iscariot by contrast is usually facing to the side so they only one eye is seen. That is usually associated with something sinister.

And in the icon I posted a corner of, there are many people and I think all the others are looking st the Cross.

You can often see what they are looking at.

But I'm not aware of looking left vs right. Could very well be though. There's a LOT I don't know. Maybe someone else will reply?

Hopefully @nutroll and @ikonographics - both being Iconographers will come in on this

A lot of the "symbolism" in icons was invented by Russian Romanticist "theologians" of the Paris School in the 20th century to make icons attractive to westerners. Their "theology of the icon" is contradictory to the teachings of the Church Fathers and Ecumenical councils.

They're looking right and left because the are badly painted. Simple as that. No hidden meaning

ikonographics said:

A lot of the "symbolism" in icons was invented by Russian Romanticist "theologians" of the Paris School in the 20th century to make icons attractive to westerners. Their "theology of the icon" is contradictory to the teachings of the Church Fathers and Ecumenical councils.

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just out of curiosity, but how does the Parisian "theology of the icon" contradict the ecumenical Councils?

ArmyMatt said:

just out of curiosity, but how does the Parisian "theology of the icon" contradict the ecumenical Councils?

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It you read the acts of the 7th Ecumenical council you will see how contradictory their teachings are. I explain some of the problems of the modern "theology of the icon" in these two articles:
https://ikonographics.blogspot.com/2016/01/revisiting-patristic-theology-of-icon.html
https://ikonographics.blogspot.com/2016/02/revisiting-patristic-theology-of-icon.html

ikonographics said:

It you read the acts of the 7th Ecumenical council you will see how contradictory their teachings are. I explain some of the problems of the modern "theology of the icon" in these two articles:
https://ikonographics.blogspot.com/2016/01/revisiting-patristic-theology-of-icon.html
https://ikonographics.blogspot.com/2016/02/revisiting-patristic-theology-of-icon.html

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thanks! I will give these a look!

ikonographics said:

A lot of the "symbolism" in icons was invented by Russian Romanticist "theologians" of the Paris School in the 20th century to make icons attractive to westerners. Their "theology of the icon" is contradictory to the teachings of the Church Fathers and Ecumenical councils.

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ikonographics said:

It you read the acts of the 7th Ecumenical council you will see how contradictory their teachings are. I explain some of the problems of the modern "theology of the icon" in these two articles:
https://ikonographics.blogspot.com/2016/01/revisiting-patristic-theology-of-icon.html
https://ikonographics.blogspot.com/2016/02/revisiting-patristic-theology-of-icon.html

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Thank you for the info - I admit this is the first I've heard it.