What about the 2 witnesses Revelation 11

Jenniferdiana said:

i wanna know when they will come

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me too.

Jenniferdiana said:

i'm confused

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me too.

i bet they'll be here soon, the half of them that we can shake hands with.

But like i say, i c though the glass darkly. But then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Now i'm confused too.

TribulationSigns said:

My KJV reads:

Ecclesiastes 3:19 KJV
[19] For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.​

People like you contend that man does not possess an incorruptible spirit. Rather, it is alleged, humanity is wholly mortal. It is argued that in this respect man does not differ from an animal. It is based upon their misunderstanding of Ecclesiastes 3:19-21, that “there is nothing that humans have as a result of birth that gives them superiority over beasts when they die”.

This context, however, is not addressing the higher nature of man. It is simply calling attention to the fact that so far as earthly existence is concerned, men and animals have a common destiny — death! The man has no advantage over the beast in this regard.

The term “spirit,” as used in this context, has to do with the animating principle of biological life that is common to both humans and lower forms of life. There is no allusion here to the “soul” (cf. Matthew 10:28), or “spirit” (cf. Daniel 7:15; 1 Corinthians 2:11; James 2:26) of man, which is created in the image of God and which makes him unique from all animals.

Hence, by the side of Ecclesiastes 3:19-21, pointing to the Physical death in view — not the “soul” of man.

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Ever notice that when the Bible speaks of death it never says "death of the body" or "physical death"? It just says "death". It never says "His body died". No, it says "He died".

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Dave Watchman said:

me too.



me too.

i bet they'll be here soon, the half of them that we can shake hands with.

But like i say, i c though the glass darkly. But then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Now i'm confused too.

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dread.

TribulationSigns said:

People like you contend that man does not possess an incorruptible spirit. Rather, it is alleged, humanity is wholly mortal.

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Humanity IS mortal.

i on the other hand am different.

For verily i say unto you that i have passed from death into life.

i cannnot say the same for Charlie Manson or Adolf Hitler. They may be the nephesh that sinneth, and will die.

So this would mean that IF i were he that DIDN'T hear His Word,
and DIDN'T believe in Him who sent He, I would NOT have everlasting life, and WOULD come into condemnation, and would NOT have passed from death into life.

LastSeven said:

I know where you're going with this, as I've heard it before. Somehow you must think that because the Holy Spirit can dwell in us that this proves we also have a spirit. I really don't see the logic in that.

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Really?

Explain this verses:


Are you saying that the men as false prophets, can't have a spirit? They who do not believe God has the spirit of antichrist so where does this spirit come from, humm?

Or are you saying that Christians can't have a spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is God?

Jenniferdiana said:

dread.

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No dread.

Lift up your head.

Focus on the redemption that draweth nigh.

LastSeven said:

Ever notice that when the Bible speaks of death it never says "death of the body" or "physical death"? It just says "death". It never says "His body died". No, it says "He died".

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Ever notice that is what most people say when someone dies - If you will look for it you will find that people are spirit /body and soul

KJV
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

NIV
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

NASB
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

TribulationSigns said:

Explain this verses:

1 John 4:1-6 KJV
[1] Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
[2] Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
[5] They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
[6] We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Are you saying that the men as false prophets, can't have a spirit? They who do not believe God has the spirit of antichrist so where does this spirit come from, humm?

Or are you saying that Christians can't have a spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is God?

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I don't think this is talking about "spirits" inside of regular people. This is like what Paul was talking about, we do not wrestle with flesh and blood.


John's talking about discerning the spirits, recognizing the false prophets. Like some of the followers of Charlie Manson could not tell that he was demon possessed. If Charlie's followers would have known ye the Spirit of God, they would have recognized that Charlie had the spirit of antichrist dwelling in him.

This doesn't mean that Charlie was an immortal spirit.

He was the nephesh that sinneth, and he died.

i thought you and scooby doo were both amils,
i thought you guys would be getting along famously.

As for me,
i will let my reasonableness be known to ALL men,
for the Lord is at hand.

Dave Watchman said:

No dread.

Lift up your head.

Focus on the redemption that draweth nigh.

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um i know that and it gets good but those days and Gods day will be a dreadful day dude..lol geez

Jenniferdiana said:

um i know that and it gets good but those days and Gods day will be a dreadful day dude..lol geez

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And woe to those who long for it.

For it will be a day of clouds and thick darkness.

i've got to be silent before that day.

be silent before the Lord.

Dave Watchman said:

I don't think this is talking about "spirits" inside of regular people.

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You did not answer the questions. Let try again.

What is the spirit of antichrist and where do you find it?

How can Christian confesseth Jesus Christ comes in Flesh if they do not have a spirit within them?

This is like what Paul was talking about, we do not wrestle with flesh and blood.

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.​

John's talking about discerning the spirits, recognizing the false prophets.

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Again, how do the false prophets have the spirit of antichrist that we discern?

Like some of the followers of Charlie Manson could not tell that he was demon possessed. If Charlie's followers would have known ye the Spirit of God, they would have recognized that Charlie had the spirit of antichrist dwelling in him.

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Do you honestly think Charlies' followers had the spirit of God in the first place? They were deceived by Charlie.

[quot]This doesn't mean that Charlie was an immortal spirit.[/quote]

For the record, I never teach that men have "immortal spirit".

TribulationSigns said:

Are you saying that the men as false prophets, can't have a spirit? They who do not believe God has the spirit of antichrist so where does this spirit come from, humm?

Or are you saying that Christians can't have a spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is God?

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These are different kinds of "spirits". Consider this definition of spirit:

those qualities regarded as forming the definitive or typical elements in the character of a person, nation, or group or in the thought and attitudes of a particular period.

This is like saying "Christmas spirit" or "the spirit of giving" or "the spirit of anti-Christ". These "spirits" are not entities, but thoughts and attitudes.

Dave Watchman said:

i thought you and scooby doo were both amils,
i thought you guys would be getting along famously.

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I can find at least some common ground with most people on here, even you. And a few people on here I agree with most of the time, but there's not a single person with whom I am completely in sync.

LastSeven said:

We do not have immortal spirits. We will become immortal spirits on the resurrection as Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15.

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1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Maybe Paul was confused here then? Immortals don't need to put on immortality, only mortals do. And that is exactly who he says in this passage that must put on immortality. Paul indicated this happens at the last trump. I doubt that anyone is going to argue that the last trump has already sounded.

I think you're confused David. Paul clearly says "this mortal shall have put on immortality".

LastSeven said:

I think you're confused David. Paul clearly says "this mortal shall have put on immortality".

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As to that post, I was basically adding to what you said, thus was not disagreeing with you.

Oh, sorry. I misunderstood what you were meaning.

TribulationSigns said:

What is the spirit of antichrist and where do you find it?

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Any one who does not confess that Jesus came in the flesh.


Such a person HAS the spirit of antichrist, it doesn't mean that the person IS a spirit.

TribulationSigns said:

How can Christian confesseth Jesus Christ comes in Flesh if they do not have a spirit within them?

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They can't. No argument here. We were picked by the Father before the foundation of the universe. We HAVE the indwelling of the Spirit, but we are not [a] spirit. We are nephesh, living creatures.

BUT, we have passed from death into life. This means it's a sure thing. A done deal. It's as good as gold. Better than money in the bank. Destroy this temple and in three days He will raise us up. We are His Body. You can count on it. But let me ask you this. Are WE raised up yet?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

TribulationSigns said:

Again, how do the false prophets have the spirit of antichrist that we discern?

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Again, they have the spirit of antichrist. They are being influenced by the spirit of antichrist. But they are not an immortal spirit.

TribulationSigns said:

Do you honestly think Charlies' followers had the spirit of God in the first place? They were deceived by Charlie.

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No i don't. Because IF they did, they would have been able to discern that Charlie had the spirit of antichrist dwelling in him.

But it doesn't make Charlie an immortal spirit, just because he has an evil spirit influencing him.

Salvation for those who eagerly await Him. Jesus was offered to bear the sins of MANY, not all. AND He is going to bring salvation only to those who eagerly await Him.

Do you think that Charlie Manson and Adolph Hitler are eagerly awaiting His appearance?

Guys like them are not "eagerly awaiting". Guys like them will be calling out to the rocks to fall on them.

That means the soul that sinneth, they will die.

They gonna be ashes under the feet of the righteous.

Dreadful sorry clemantine.

LastSeven said:

Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the two witnesses are truth and love. Or truth and righteousness, both of which are dying before our very eyes.

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You've got to tie the witnesses to their descriptions, the clues in Revelation. Who called for fire out of the sky to burn the enemy? Who called for the sky to be shut and the rain witheld? Has to be the prophet Elijah. Who turned water to blood and submitted the earth to plagues? Has to be Moses. So Moses is the law, and Elijah is THE prophet . . . hence it is reasonable to link the witnesses to the law and the prophets, or the Scriptures. And it doesn't hurt this identification when we note that the Scriptures are, actually, witnesses.

I noted earlier they are "dead" in that radical skepticism has taken away belief in the scriptures. Have you noticed how even secular, unbelieving people will give presents to each other at Christmas time?

Rev 11:10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
NASU