Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟75,214.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It actually is like a parable, it starts in the same style as the parables that precede it,

And he said also to his disciples, A certain man was rich, who had a manager; and this one was accused by him as wasting his possessions. (Luke 16:1 [ABP])

And he said, A certain man had two sons. (Luke 15:11 [ABP])

There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. (Luke 16:19 [NIV])

Because it is part of a set of parables. Common guys, open your eyes.
No parable talks about the after life. No parable names names including the one and only Abraham. If it didn’t really happen, Jesus was lying about Abraham...pretty serious.
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
There is nothing out of context in Paul stating we are commanded to teach Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN.

That is the gospel message according to Paul, therefore ALL doctrine should be seen in light of the gospel message. However many people try to fit the gospel message into their doctrine instead of letting the gospel message shape their doctrine.

The doctrine of eternal torment and annihilation are opposed to the gospel message.

Here is something I wrote years ago when a lady asked me the same things you just did. Why preach the gospel at all?
If one believes Jesus died for all men, should it not go without saying that when He rose again that it was for all men also? Can we really separate His death from His resurrection? If so, how then can DEATH be swallowed up of LIFE? God bless
I totally agree with your description of the gospel. Yes, we are not only dead in Christ
If one believes....
Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


If one believes....
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

If one believes....
Psalms 144:11 Rid me, and deliver me from the hand of strange children, whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand is a right hand of falsehood:
15 Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD.


If one believes....
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


If one believes....
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Do you believe in the promises and in those who are asleep?
Matthew 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Do you believe in the promises and in those who are asleep?
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Do you believe in the promises and in those who are asleep?
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do you believe in the promises and in those who are asleep?
Acts of the Apostles 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts of the Apostles 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So the wicked are annihilated and then resurrected to be annihilated? I think the word annihilate is not clear to you.
You do not know the first thing about annihilated or you would not say that. annihilate definition: to reduce to utter ruin or nonexistence; destroy utterly, to destroy something completely so that nothing is left

First Not all will be resurrected:

Psalms1:1  Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

1:4  The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

1:5  Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

You still have time to believe if you repent
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Where do you think David is?
Acts of the Apostles 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts of the Apostles 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

cwo

Active Member
Jul 21, 2018
38
24
37
Pompano Beach, FL
✟1,074.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No parable talks about the after life. No parable names names including the one and only Abraham. If it didn’t really happen, Jesus was lying about Abraham...pretty serious.

Is there a rulebook with how parables have to exactly be written? Even this one sentence parable was spoken in an out of ordinary way,

"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood..." (John 6:54 [NIV])

Christ spoke in metaphors, in parables. The story of the rich man begins in the same style as the stories right before it that were parables. It also contradicts other scriptures if taken literally. It is therefore a parable, with an interpretation, like any other parable. There exists an interpretation here http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2016/10/02/the-interpretation-of-the-rich-man-and-lazarus-parable/ . Take it or leave it.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
From the Gospels we see many who apparently confess, repent, believe, have works in support, but Jesus says to them: "Depart from me, I never knew you".

never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek?

DA said:
Do you agree with Vincent that aidios means everlasting?

I think it was a superior word to use relative to the ambiguous aion & aionios, if God was a believer in endless punishment. Moreover, as opposed to aion and aionios (which are often used of finite duration), God had a number of other words & expressions available that would also have better served to express endless punishment, if Love Omnipotent were a believer of such. But He never uses such of eschatological punishment. So the reasonable conclusion is that Love Omnipotent rejected using such words and expressions of a final destiny of endless punishment because He knew better & He rejected the notion that anyone will endure endless punishment. Those words & expresssions are:

1. no end (Lk.1:33)...this expression is used of God's kingdom having "no end". It is never used of anyone's torments or punishment. We never read of anyone receiving torments that will have "no end". This unambiguous phrase, "no end", would have been a superior choice to the ambiguous words aion & aionion, if Love Omnipotent had a belief in endless torments or annihilation. But He rejected its use in expressing such a fate.

2. endless (1 Tim.1:4)...Again if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments, why didn't He use this word to express it, instead of the ambiguous aion & aionion, which often refer to finite durations in ancient Greek usage?

3. never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment. If Jude believed in endless punishment, he had the perfect opportunity at Jude 1:6 by simply adding that the angels would suffer the judgement of eternal (AIDIOS) punishment or torments. Instead of warning his readers of such a horrificly monstrous fate, as he should have been morally obligated to do if it were a real possibility, instead he conveys the relatively utterly lame & insignificant info that these angelic beings will be kept in chains until judgement day. OTOH, consider:

"Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he [Jesus] used aionion kolasin..." Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

"Nyssa defined the vision of God promised there as "life without end, eternal incorruption, undying beatitude [ten ateleuteton zoen, ten aidion aphtharsian , ten athanaton makarioteta]." ("Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in ..." By Jaroslav Pelikan, p.165 @): https://books.google.ca/books?id=3V...5DMMQ6AEIODAE#v=onepage&q=ateleuteton&f=false

5. unfading (1 Pet.1:4; 5:4)...Peter uses this word of an endless inheritance reserved in heaven & a crown of glory. It is never used of the endless pain, punishment or torments that anyone will receive. Can it be denied that this would have been a superior word (over aion & aionios) to use to express such a horrific destiny if Love Omnipotent actually had such in store for anyone? Wouldn't He want to express warnings about it in the clearest ways possible?

6. found no place for repentance (Heb.12:17)...is used in Heb.12:17 of the loss of a finite earthly blessing..."he found no place of repentance, although having earnestly sought it with tears". Never is it used regarding those in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire, or eschatological punishment. Never do we read of those cast into any "hell" that they will not (or never) find a place of repentance, even though they earnestly seek it with tears. God was quite capable of expressing such in His Holy Scriptures. But rather than give such a warning, as Love Omnipotent should have if such an unbelievably horrific future awaited anyone, instead we are told of the relatively lame loss of a finite earthly blessing. Such a waste of words if endless punishment were really true.

7. In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Just because scriptures say every knee will bow and confess, does not equate out in the result of "universal salvation".


"Appendix II: Every Knee Shall Bow"

"God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Ph. 2:9-11 NAS). Is this forced worship, or one offered genuinely from the heart? Below are 20 points that together, I believe, unmistakably affirm true worship.  According to Vine, ―bow,‖ (kamptō per Strong‘s 2578, ―to bend‖) is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration (Ro.11:4, 14:11; Ep. 3:14; Ph. 2:10). [In contrast] sunkamptō signifies… to bend down by compulsory force‖ (Ro. 11:10). 1  The phrase ―confess that Jesus Christ is Lord‖ was used in early baptismal services by which those being baptized expressed their commitment to Christ or declared they had been saved through Christ.2 Now, since ―under the earth‖ refers to the abode of the dead (or hell), then even in death an opportunity remains to confess Christ unto salvation.  ―No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit‖ (1Co. 12:3). This is strong evidence it refers to a sincere worship since fear alone could bring about a forced worship without the need of the Holy Spirit moving the heart.  Paul links mouth confession with salvation. ―If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus…you will be saved…with the mouth confession is made unto salvation‖ (Ro. 10:9).  This worship brings Him glory. A forced worship would not glorify or satisfy a loving God. ―This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me‖ (Mt. 15:8)
 That this is true worship is confirmed in Re. 5:13 and by the entire context (Re. 5: 11-14) if they are related. ―Every creature in heaven and earth and under the earth…I heard saying: ‗Blessing, honor, glory, power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb‘…‖ (Re. 5:13). Why would these two contexts not be related?  The word ―confess‖ in this passage is the same Greek word exomologeomai that Christ used in praising His Father in Mt. 11:25 and Lu. 10:21. It is used 11 times: Mt. 3:6; 11:25; Mk. 1:5; Lu. 10:21; 22:6; Ac. 19:18; Ro. 14:11; 15:9; Ph. 2:11; Ja. 5:16; and Re. 3:5. None of these can be seen as ―forced‖ praise. They relate to what flows naturally from the heart. For example, Jesus exclaimed, ―I heartily praise Thee, Father…that Thou hast hidden these things…‖ (Mt. 11:25 Wey). The NIV and the NAS read, ―I praise you Father.‖ Ro. 15:9 RSV states, ―I will praise thee among the Gentiles, and sing to thy name‖ (See the NIV, NAS, TEV, Phillips, Jerusalem Bible, RSV, NEB, WEY, and so forth). The Englishman‘s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament says exomologeomai is the Greek word used in Psalms for ―praise‖ (yadah) and ―give thanks‖ (hoday) in the Septuagint used in Christ‘s time. Simply reading Psalms confirms the genuine worship of Ph. 2:11.3

" Ken Eckerty in an article titled, ―The Work of the Cross,‖ said: I think it‘s significant that the bowing of every knee and the confessing of every tongue is done ―in‖ the name of Jesus, not ―at‖ as translated by the KJV. Scholars such as Vincent, Robertson, Young, Rotherham, and Bullinger (just to name a few) all say that it is best translated ―in.‖ ―For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I.…‖ Mt.18:20 ―In‖ Christ‘s name implies an ―entering into‖ or an intimacy with His name. Confession ―in‖ His name cannot mean anything but intimacy. 4 To accurately understand Ph. 2:9-11, we must go to the Old Testament from where it is quoted. Let us look closely at Is. 45:21-25: 21.There is no other God beside Me, a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me. 22. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. 24. He shall say, ‗Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. 25.In the LORD all the descendents of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.‘  ―Surely in the LORD I have righteousness‖ (vs. 24). Only a genuine believer could say this. Note that this is stated as an oath (vs. 23), making it especially pertinent.  Those who are incensed against Him shall be ashamed (vs. 24). Being ashamed is usually a positive thing and often a sign of genuine repentance. 2Ch. 30:15; Ezra 9:5-7; Job 19:3; Jer. 6:13-15, 8:12, 12:13, 31:18- 20, Ez. 16:60-63, 36:31-33; 2Th. 3:14-15.

"―All the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory‖ (vs. 25). Justification and glory are undeniable evidences of genuine repentance.  ―Because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea (Mic. 7:18-19).‖Is subduing iniquity forcing insincere worship?  ―He is able even to subdue all ―things‖ to Himself (Ph. 3:21).‖ Note: ―things‖ is not in the Greek and that this is said in the very same letter!  ―How awesome are Your works! Through the greatness of Your power Your enemies shall submit themselves to You. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to You; they shall sing praises to Your name. Selah. Come and see the works of God; He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men (Ps. 66:3-5).‖ Certainly these passages together with Ph. 2:11 all point to the same glorious worship (Re. 5:13)!

"In Ps. 66:3-5, God is described twice as ―awesome‖ in the very context of ―enemies submitting themselves‖ through His ―great‖ power. And this mind you, is all in the context of ―all the earth‖ worshiping and singing praises to God! David then invites us to come and see how awesome is His doing toward humanity! Where is ―forced‖ worship here? As well, they are ―submitting themselves,‖ not ―being‖ submitted. Relative to Mic. 7:18-19, how can a ―compassionate subduing‖ from a God ―delighting in mercy‖ (in the very context of sins cast away) possibly coincide with a forced worship of those eternally being tormented in hell? Now Ph. 3: 21 is found in the very same letter as our key text, making it particularly pertinent. It affirms that God‘s power is ―even able‖ to do something. ―Even able‖ implies something extraordinarily impressive. A compelled submission by brute force is not particularly impressive. But a God winning the hearts of His enemies through His sacrificial love on the cross—that is impressive! That‘s what makes Him truly a most ―awesome‖ and all powerful God!

"―He humbled Himself…even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him…that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow‖ (Ph. 2:8-9). Every knee bows because of the cross. The word ―therefore‖ links the cross with worship. To deny genuine worship at the foot of the cross is to strip this passage of all its meaning. Worse, it strips the cross of its power to save and insults the Spirit of grace (He. 10:29). Talbott asks: Now just what is the power of the Cross, according to Paul? Is it the power of a conquering hero to compel His enemies to obey Him against their will? If that had been Paul‘s doctrine, it would have been strange indeed, for God had no need of a crucifixion to compel obedience. He was quite capable of doing that all along. God sent His Son into the world, not as a conquering hero, but as a suffering servant; and the power that Jesus unleashed as He bled on the Cross was precisely the power of self-giving love, the power to overcome evil by transforming the wills and renewing the minds of the evil ones themselves. ⁵

"The cross of Christ is the greatest power in the universe because it alone can melt the hearts of God‘s enemies, and make them His friends. As John Milton, the famous 17th century English author wrote, ―Who overcomes by force hath overcome but half his foe.‖ 6

" Salvation is directly mentioned here. ―Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore…work out your own salvation…for God works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure‖ (Ph. 2:11-13). The word ―therefore‖ is very significant, for it links the confession that Jesus is Lord directly with salvation.  God Himself works in them ―to will.‖ Does God working in the hearts of His children to will to do His good pleasure mean only a forced submission? The question is its own refutation.  ―When all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him that God may be all in all‖ (1Co. 15:28). The Greek word for ―subject‖ is the same word applied to Christ. Can it be questioned that Christ‘s submission is not freely given? Moreover, would God be all in subjects forcefully subjugated?  God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name…. What kind of a worship, sincere or genuine, would highly exalt Christ? I know which one would lowly exalt Him.  Finally, some will say, ―Of course they‘ll confess then, it will all be too obvious. There will be no merit to confessing then.‖ But are we saved by merit? Where is boasting? It is excluded (Ro. 3:27). We, as the Church, have stripped this passage of its full glory. The bottom line is the love of God will do what His power alone could never do: conquer the hearts of His enemies and make them His friends.

"Why did I go into such detail over this one verse? Because this passage is very well known, quoted, and even sung about. Sadly, it is not truly appreciated for its glorious meaning. I think any honest reflection of these twenty points must agree with the evidence presented, that Ph. 2:9-11 affirms sincere and heartfelt worship."

For the original version of the above quoted material, please see p.197-200 from:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Pneuma3
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Is there a rulebook with how parables have to exactly be written? Even this one sentence parable was spoken in an out of ordinary way,
Yes, as a matter of fact there is a rule for parables. The Greek word παραβολή/parabolé means to lay or place beside. Thus a parable compares one thing which is not known or understood to another thing which is known or understood.
"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood..." (John 6:54 [NIV])
Cannot be a parable it does not compare two things.

Christ spoke in metaphors, in parables. The story of the rich man begins in the same style as the stories right before it that were parables. It also contradicts other scriptures if taken literally. It is therefore a parable, with an interpretation, like any other parable. There exists an interpretation here .... Take it or leave it
Luke 16:19-32 is not a parable. It is not introduced as a parable. It does not compare two things. As already stated it names a specific historical person by name, Abraham. If Abraham was not in the place and did not say the words Jesus said Jesus was lying. And Jesus did not explain the story later to his disciples. I'm sure you can find an explanation of the story. Just google it and you will find many different "explanations." I recently saw one I had never seen before. It supposedly alludes to Genesis 15:2-4.
All of the early church fathers who quoted or referred to the story considered it factual. Including Ireneaeus, who was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John If one thinks the the ECF are wrong they will have to prove it not just say the ECF are wrong.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First [A.D. 145-220.]
9. A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Site Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
982
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Before I begin I want to say that I am in no way one of those people who believe in annihilation to please my flesh or rely on my own understanding to make myself feel better. Sure you can use God's character as an argument, but I am here to show you pure biblical evidence where God clearly states the punishment for sin is death. If I saw in scripture God clearly say the wicked will have eternal conscious torment and hell is an eternal torture chamber, I would still trust him and accept that. But I just don't see the biblical evidence for this popular belief and ironically enough, so many Christians who are deep in the bible and far in their walk believe this view and think the truth (death of the wicked) is unbiblcal. I think scripture was twisted and the church popularized this false belief, and they obviously did a good job in it. As a side note, I truly think ceasing to exist is actually the worst punishment of all because you will never get a chance for life and you can never feel anything, so God is still just in that case and the wicked will pay for rejecting God. Some people believe in universal salvation which I do think is unbiblical.

I believe the lake of fire is a very real place. It clearly says the lake of fire is real in scripture, and there will be torment and punishment in there before the souls of the wicked perish and God restores his creation. When God makes the new heaven and new earth as stated in revelation, there will be no more room for suffering and evil. All evil will die and there will be no more need for existence of it. A lot of people make the argument that all souls are eternal, but that doesn't make any sense because before we were born, we did not exist. So we are not eternal in the way God is. Not to mention God has the power to destroy souls because he is the almighty creator. The bible says the righteous will have everlasting LIFE and the wicked will PERISH. It says the wages of sin is DEATH. The bible talks about everlasting "destruction". It says evil and hell will be thrown into the lake and fire for the second DEATH. I know a lot of people will make the argument death only refers to spiritual death, but it does not specifically say this in the bible, death means death, not only spiritual death but the death of your soul, and it seems pretty clear in the bible so there is no need to add to it. Most of all it talks about how the gift Jesus gives to the righteous is life, and if you don't believe in him you will receive the opposite which is death. The eternal punishment the bible talks about is the destruction of the soul for eternity.

Here is the biblical evidence:

Psalm 1:6 "For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 69:28 "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous" Psalm 34:16 "The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth."

Psalm 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out"

Isaiah 1:28, 30-31 "And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;"

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death"
I'm not sure the Lake of Fire exists yet. I think it is more of an event at the end of the first earth, when Death and Hades are thrown into this fire and destroyed. Destroy does mean destroy, to put an end to. You cannot continually destroy something forever. Death has both physical and a spiritual aspect. When an unbeliever dies, his soul goes to Hades, the underworld (which I believe is within the physical earth). Now, according to the Rich man in Hades, (Luke 16:23-31), he was suffering in a flame. Are there flames under the crust of the earth? Is there fire? We know that lava comes from beneath and it is assumed that the center of the earth has at least pockets of molten lava. We know there are caverns and so this idea of Hades can be understood to be a physical place. Souls are invisible, immaterial, so how does that work?
Well, in dreams, things seem real, so your soul's conscious awareness in this place is real and you believe you still have a body that is suffering.
Part of Hades is the Abyss, where demons dwell. The doorway to the Abyss may be in the wilderness area outside of Jerusalem, where the scapegoats where sent, the demon possessed pigs, where Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed along the NE part of the Dead Sea (The Sea of Lot, the Stinking Sea, The Devils Sea, etc.) The Great Rift Valley contains thirty volcanoes, some active an some dormant. This stretches some 3700 miles from Syria to Mozambique. During the end times, the earth will be split open and out of the Abyss, demon scorpions will immerge to torture mankind.
As we read these passages, we can see this as an event coming:
"Terror and pit and snare
Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit,
And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in a snare;
for the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
The earth is broken asunder,
The earth is shaken violently.
The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard
And it totters like a shack,
For its transgression is heavy upon it,
And it will fall, never to rise again.
so it will happen in that day,
That the Lord will punish the host of heaven on high,
And the kings of the earth on earth.
They will be gathered together
Like prisoners in a dungeon,
And will be confined in prison;
And after many days they will be punished." Isaiah 24:17-22

"May burning coals fall upon them;
May they be cast into the fire,
Into deep pits from which they cannot rise." Psalm 140:10

Think about it, this verse describes people being thrown into a pit/fissure of burning fire and brimstone.
Rev. 9:1, 2 describes the bottomless pit being opened and smoke of a great furnace coming out of it, with emerging demon locusts who torture men for five months during the Great Tribulation.

So after the resurrection of both the dead and living, Judgment will physically take place on earth. And then there will be 1000 years of peace, then the end of Hades and Death itself be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. It's a done deal at that point and LIFE, a new heaven and earth will go on forever.
 
Upvote 0

gordonhooker

Franciscan tssf
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2012
1,883
1,045
Wellington Point, QLD
Visit site
✟274,602.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
2 Timothy 4:3-4.
I don't think it's about control at all.
IMO, This whole "God is all love all the time" is man making God into who they want Him to be. There is so much of the bible you have to throw out to obtain this line of thinking.

I take it you do realise that goes both ways... and all the fire and brimstone stuff maybe man making God an image of man rather than the other way around.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Humble me Lord

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2017
2,217
3,180
The far north icebox
✟190,331.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I take it you do realise that goes both ways... and all the fire and brimstone stuff maybe man making God an image of man rather than the other way around.

Sir, we are obviously going to have differing opinions on that, as I believe the whole bible is the Holy inspired God breathed word, and is truth.
I do not believe any other books or canon's contain that.
 
Upvote 0

gordonhooker

Franciscan tssf
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2012
1,883
1,045
Wellington Point, QLD
Visit site
✟274,602.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Sir, we are obviously going to have differing opinions on that, as I believe the whole bible is the Holy inspired God breathed word, and is truth.
I do not believe any other books or canon's contain that.

You are entitled to all opinions you like, it still doesn’t change my observation.
 
Upvote 0

AvgJoe

Member since 2005
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2005
2,748
1,099
Texas
✟332,816.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
I wouldn't go here for doctrine. I've found a lot of error here.

No one has it all right, and while I don't agree with them on everything, they get way more right, then they get wrong.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Because you use scripture which says: "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (cf. Phil. 2:10-11) will result in "universal salvation" for all who do this.

If that is the case, why preach? Why tell people they need to repent?

Because, if you've been called to "preach", you should obey Christ.

Why would a Calvinist preach?

If the elect are predestined to salvation & the nonelect are predestined to be lost, what use is preaching?

Do you actually think other people's salvation depends on you preaching to them? Do you think God will damn them forever if they never believed because they never heard?

Are those who profess Christ only out of fear & for "eternal fire insurance" truly saved?

If Annihilationism is fact, then why be saved to begin with? After all, if in 1 year or 1,000,000 years, when my sin debt is paid, I burn up into nothing and disappear, I have escaped the "Lake of Fire".

Only a utterly ignorant retarded brain dead insane fool would choose a million years of torments plus endless annihilation over endless bliss.

So the best thing about "universal salvation based upon Phil. 2:10-11 is that we don't need to repent.

Actually Scripture says it's the goodness of God that leads people to repentance & those who resist God store up wrath against themselves (Romans 2:4-16). God commands all men to repent.

On that day when Jesus returns and the whole world says what is promised in Phil. 2:10-11, everybody will be saved.

Clearly Phil.2:9-11 won't be fulfilled on the day when Jesus returns, but after the new heavens and earth are created & God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

So lets abandon Christianity entirely. Lets live any way we want. After all, we have the promise of salvation via Phil. 2:10-11.

2 Pet.2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned away from the holy commandment passed on to them.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You are presenting yourself as more knowledgeable than I am
And what did Paul say?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?


It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html



It does until you or some other uni can show me where Paul told the Christians in Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus that all those groups Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God would inherit the kingdom after death.

Again you are evading answering the question with a simple yes or no:

Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism?

Either you think it is a proof text against universalism or you don't.

If you don't think it refutes universalism, why keep posting it? What's the point if it's irrelevant to the discussion.

Ditto for the parallel passages you posted: Eph.5:5 & Gal.5:19-21 along with 1 Cor.6:9-11.


It does until you or some other uni can show me where Paul told the Christians in Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus that all those
groups Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God would inherit the kingdom after death.


Wrong. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-12). He didn't say any of the unrighteous will never become righteous. So 1 Cor.6:9-12 fails as
a "proof text" against universalism. Ditto for the other passages you quoted - Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5.


Your argument fails because it is a logical fallacy, argument from silence, "something must/will happen because the Bible
doesn't say it will not.

Wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong! My comment made no such argument. Neither did it state anything "must/will happen". Instead it was an argument against your position stating:

It does until you or some other uni can show me where Paul told the Christians in Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus that all those
groups Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God would inherit the kingdom after death.

Wrong. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-12). He didn't say any of the unrighteous will never become righteous. So 1 Cor.6:9-12 fails as a
"proof text" against universalism. Ditto for the other passages you quoted - Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5.

" So please tell me where all those groups of sinners are going to spend eternity after they are made righteous, according to you, because they can't inherit the kingdom of God?.

Irrelevant to my point that your 1 Cor.6:9-11, etc, texts do not disprove universalism. I've shown you are wrong in implying they are "proof texts" against universalism.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment.

Basically, you are telling us that failure to be saved now in this age, ultimately don't mean a thing. There is no such thing as being punished "eternally".

Fair enough. So why bother to be saved to begin with?

The most well know verse of scripture is John 3:16:

"Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ' ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον." -Jn. 3:16 (GNT)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -Jn. 3:16 (KJV)

Here, the same, identical Greek word is used that you scoff at in the above quote.

Here "αἰώνιον" is translated/rendered "everlasting".

"καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον." -Mt. 25:46 (GNT)

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." -Mt. 25:46 (KJV)

Oh my goodness, here is that same Greek word! And guess what, it describes those condemned to punishment "everlasting".

Perhaps I am just wrong as to be completely in error.

Hum...

Lets check one other place.

"καὶ ὁ διάβολος ὁ πλανῶν αὐτοὺς ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ θείου, ὅπου καὶ τὸ θηρίον καὶ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης, καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων." -Rev. 20:10 (GNT)

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." -Rev. 20:10 (KJV)

Oh my goodness, here is that Greek word again.

What is extremely interesting is:

"the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are,'. To be what? "tormented day and night for ever and ever."

"Original Word: βασανίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: basanizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bas-an-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I torment, torture, buffet
Definition: I examine, as by torture; I torment; I buffet, as of waves."

Source

Point is, if "αἰώνιον" cannot be rendered "eternal" as in so many other places in scripture, you absolutely cannot say that "αἰώνιον" means "eternal" "everlasting" in John 3:16 neither.

If at some point, in the "Lake of Fire" if "αἰώνιον", using your logic, your definition, does not mean "eternal/everlasting/for ever and ever", then it cannot mean the same in John 3:16. At some point in time, even in heaven, you will cease to be. That is, comparing apples to apples.

All this, proves you wrong. Period.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Lets get one thing straight right now!

  1. I was NOT talking to you!
  2. If you have a problem with me being a Calvinist, then come over to the Semper Reformanda area, and lets talk there!

Because, if you've been called to "preach", you should obey Christ.

Why would a Calvinist preach?

If the elect are predestined to salvation & the nonelect are predestined to be lost, what use is preaching?

In the first place, you have no idea what you are talking about. That is not what Calvinism teaches. That is however, true of "Hyper-Calvinism".

So get your facts straight.

Do you actually think other people's salvation depends on you preaching to them? Do you think God will damn them forever if they never believed because they never heard?

In the second place, I'd like for you to POST HERE, for everybody to see, where I said that.

Thirdly, We, you, I, the next person, are commanded to do so.

But more than anything, your doctrines here, eliminate that need.

Are those who profess Christ only out of fear & for "eternal fire insurance" truly saved?

That is not for me to know.

Only a utterly ignorant retarded brain dead insane fool would choose a million years of torments plus endless annihilation over endless bliss.

Funny, the very definition of annihilation is to wipe out completely. If I sooner or later slip into an existence of "non-existence" how would I know what I'm missing out on?

Actually Scripture says it's the goodness of God that leads people to repentance & those who resist God store up wrath against themselves (Romans 2:4-16). God commands all men to repent.

Your right, but do all men repent?

Clearly Phil.2:9-11 won't be fulfilled on the day when Jesus returns, but after the new heavens and earth are created & God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

Here again, you stick your4 nose in others conversation where you don't belong.

I never said that. The member I was addressing said that. So if you want to fault somebody, place your blame on them!

2 Pet.2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned away from the holy commandment passed on to them.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

And that applies how?

Here again, if I choose to not repent, then by all reasons supplied in this thread, the doctrine of Annihilationism is real, sooner or later, my sin debt will be paid in full, and I will escape "eternal/everlasting/for ever and ever" punishment.

There is one fact that remains. Pain, no matter how bad, how hard, how extreme it is, if a person KNOWS that sooner or later there will be an end to it, they can endure it for however long it takes.

As a former EMT, I know this is true.

If I know that after 1 year, or 1,000,000 years, my sin debt, my punishment for sin, rejection of Jesus Christ as my Savior will end, then no matter how bad it will be, I can withstand it because it will end.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You guys have darn near branded me, tarred and feathered me because of my Calvinist convictions.

So be it.

Don't even bother to reply, I WILL NOT RESPOND.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: ClementofA
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Pneuma3

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2006
1,637
382
✟54,054.00
Faith
Christian
If one believes....
Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


If one believes....
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

If one believes....
Psalms 144:11 Rid me, and deliver me from the hand of strange children, whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand is a right hand of falsehood:
15 Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD.


If one believes....
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


If one believes....
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Do you believe in the promises and in those who are asleep?
Matthew 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Do you believe in the promises and in those who are asleep?
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Do you believe in the promises and in those who are asleep?
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do you believe in the promises and in those who are asleep?
Acts of the Apostles 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts of the Apostles 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

all that shows me is you can quote scripture, big deal.
Please explain why those scriptures are opposed to what we are commanded to teach.
 
Upvote 0