What about the 2 witnesses Revelation 11

Who or what are the 2 witnesses symbolizing in Rev 11


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seventysevens

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It doesn't say that no spirit can go into heaven when we die, but we do not have spirits. We are physical only, until the resurrection. That's when we become spiritual beings.

The following prove that we return to the dust of the earth when we die, and that we will lose all consciousness.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing
You not understand that the spirit separates from the body and goes to be with the Lord - since it is the spirit that gives it life - how can the body have life without the spirit
Those verses speak of the body of a person
 
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DavidPT

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Show us that Scripture that specifically states that no spirit can go into heaven when we die?

Why not just use logical deducing in order to determine things sometimes? In order to come to correct conclusions there can't be any obvious contradictions.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Obviously those whom he was addressing at the time, every last one of them are dead and gone, including him. If upon death they go to heaven where Jesus is, obviously they would undoubtedly see Him as He is. Yet this passage indicates no one sees Him as He is until He shall appear. That obviously means He is coming to us and not we coming to Him.

How then would you square the belief one goes to heaven upon death, with that of the above, where no one sees Him as He is until He appears first? How can His appearing here not be meaning the 2nd coming?
 
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LastSeven

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Well, what does the context of the passage really talked about? Christ has said that HE is the ONLY man on earth who hath ascended up to heaven and came down to tell them of heavenly things. Selah! This is what the whole context illustrates this is what Christ was exegeting to them. This has NOTHING to do with whether man has ever gone into heaven upon death (or taken).
It's true that Jesus is saying no-one else is qualified to speak of heavenly things, but when he says that "no-one has gone to heaven" he means exactly what he says. If he was meaning only that no-one has returned from heaven to speak of it, then he would've said so.
 
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TribulationSigns

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It's true that Jesus is saying no-one else is qualified to speak of heavenly things, but when he says that "no-one has gone to heaven" he means exactly what he says. If he was meaning only that no-one has returned from heaven to speak of it, then he would've said so.

No, that is not what Christ said. You were trying to isolate the passage from the rest of the sentence. Read again.

John 3:12-13
  • "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
  • And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
He doesn't say no one has ever gone into heaven, it says no one hath ascended into heaven but He (Christ) who came down from heaven. This is what qualify him to reveal heavenly things.
 
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LastSeven

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You not understand that the spirit separates from the body and goes to be with the Lord - since it is the spirit that gives it life - how can the body have life without the spirit
Those verses speak of the body of a person
Actually the spirit is life. When the Bible says that our "spirit" returns to God who gave it, it means our "life" returns to God who gave it. The word for spirit in Ecclesiastes 12:7 is Ruach which means "life".

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (Ruach) returns to God who gave it.

He gave us this life in Genesis 2:7.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice that when we received the breath of life we became a living soul. A soul is what we are, not what we have. A soul is a living creature. Any creature that has life in it, is a soul. And when the life leaves that creature it dies and is no longer a soul.
 
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LastSeven

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He doesn't say no one has ever gone into heaven, it says no one hath ascended into heaven but He (Christ) who came down from heaven.
That's exactly the same thing. No one has been to heaven, except Christ. Seems pretty straight forward. Adding that second part to the sentence, does not change the first part.
 
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seventysevens

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Why not just use logical deducing in order to determine things sometimes? In order to come to correct conclusions there can't be any obvious contradictions.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Obviously those whom he was addressing at the time, every last one of them are dead and gone, including him. If upon death they go to heaven where Jesus is, obviously they would undoubtedly see Him as He is. Yet this passage indicates no one sees Him as He is until He shall appear. That obviously means He is coming to us and not we coming to Him.

How then would you square the belief one goes to heaven upon death, with that of the above, where no one sees Him as He is until He appears first? How can His appearing here not be meaning the 2nd coming?
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

It speaks that the world did not know the creator and therefore they do not know the children of the creator
Book of john says the same thing

many scriptures refer to when Christians die their spirit goes to heaven
 
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seventysevens

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Actually the spirit is life. .
That is what I said , but the body is what the spirit is housed in - Just as when a person has become born-again the Holy Spirit now resides in our body which is why it is then called the temple of the Holy Spirit
 
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DavidPT

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See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

It speaks that the world did not know the creator and therefore they do not know the children of the creator
Book of john says the same thing

many scriptures refer to when Christians die their spirit goes to heaven



Maybe I missed it when I read your post, but I don't see anything in your post specifically addressing my argument about-----But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

It seems pretty silly that if one goes to heaven upon death that they would not see Him as He is, but would need to wait until He appears first in order to see Him as He is. If that isn't a good example of a contradiction, I don't know what is?
 
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TribulationSigns

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Actually the spirit is life. When the Bible says that our "spirit" returns to God who gave it, it means our "life" returns to God who gave it. The word for spirit in Ecclesiastes 12:7 is Ruach which means "life".

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (Ruach) returns to God who gave it.

He gave us this life in Genesis 2:7.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice that when we received the breath of life we became a living soul. A soul is what we are, not what we have. A soul is a living creature. Any creature that has life in it, is a soul. And when the life leaves that creature it dies and is no longer a soul.

You are right, we are given a soul. Do you realize that only man was given a soul, not all other animals (creatures)?

Anyway, yes we still do have a soul after death and we will physically be with the Lord. For example:

Revelation 20:4-6 KJV
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The souls of the Saints do exist after death and they will already be with Christ in heaven. The unbelievers do have souls, however, when they are physically dead, their souls REMAIN in the grave in silence like you have quoted:

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord
, neither any that go down into silence.​

The "rest of the dead" are the unsaved dead who did not take part in first resurrection (born again), will remain in the grave, knowing nothing, feeling nothing, cannot know the time, etc, until the Second Resurrection at the Second Coming where they will be resurrected to stand before Son of Man.

So yes, ALL the souls of the Saints will be with the Lord in heaven upon death. As it is written:

2nd Corinthians 5:6-10
  • "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are ABSENT from the Lord:
  • (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
  • We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
  • Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him."
Absent means absent from the physical presence of God in heaven because we were in our bodies on Earth. Not absence from God's spiritual presence on earth. Get that straight first. But when our bodies, dead, we will absent from our bodies, to be with the Lord in heaven! Not waiting in the grave. The Saints will go right up into heaven while the unbelievers will remain in the grave until Second Coming.
 
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LastSeven

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That is what I said , but the body is what the spirit is housed in - Just as when a person has become born-again the Holy Spirit now resides in our body which is why it is then called the temple of the Holy Spirit
No. You don't understand. The spirit is life. "Spirit" and "Life" are synonyms.

When Jesus died on the cross, do you believe that he actually died? Or do you believe that he left his body only to come back later? The answer to this question depends on what "He" refers to. And when speaking of yourself, what are "you"? Are you spirit, or are you flesh?
 
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TribulationSigns

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Maybe I missed it when I read your post, but I don't see anything in your post specifically addressing my argument about-----But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

It seems pretty silly that if one goes to heaven upon death that they would not see Him as He is, but would need to wait until He appears first in order to see Him as He is. If that isn't a good example of a contradiction, I don't know what is?

Not true.

The Souls of the Saints from the old and new testament will already see God in heaven upon death (before Second Coming). And they are the ones that will come with Christ at Second Coming upon white horses! But, we, who are still "alive and remain" in our bodies on this Earth, will be changed instantly into spiritual bodies to be with Christ in the air. That is when we will see Him as He is.
 
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LastSeven

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You are right, we are given a soul. Do you realize that only man was given a soul, not all other animals (creatures)?
Actually, I said not that we are given a soul, but that we are souls.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And as for animals, they are no different from us. They too are living souls and they too return to the dust of the earth when they die, for dust is all they are.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.
 
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LastSeven

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Not true.

The Souls of the Saints from the old and new testament will already see God in heaven upon death (before Second Coming). And they are the ones that will come with Christ at Second Coming upon white horses! But, we, who are still "alive and remain" in our bodies on this Earth, will be changed instantly into spiritual bodies to be with Christ in the air. That is when we will see Him as He is.
Do you not believe that those who are resurrected will also be given spiritual bodies?
 
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DavidPT

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No. You don't understand. The spirit is life. "Spirit" and "Life" are synonyms.

When Jesus died on the cross, do you believe that he actually died? Or do you believe that he left his body only to come back later? The answer to this question depends on what "He" refers to. And when speaking of yourself, what are "you"? Are you spirit, or are you flesh?


My argument is that it perhaps appears no one goes to heaven upon death. But my argument isn't that no one goes nowhere then.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Notice what verse 22 says-----And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. How does one explain that part since this obviously isn't meaning the body of the person being carried by the angels? The text indicates this happens upon death.
 
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TribulationSigns

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No. You don't understand. The spirit is life. "Spirit" and "Life" are synonyms.

When Jesus died on the cross, do you believe that he actually died? Or do you believe that he left his body only to come back later? The answer to this question depends on what "He" refers to. And when speaking of yourself, what are "you"? Are you spirit, or are you flesh?

What did Jesus said?

John 3:6-7 KJV
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

I am born again with the Spirit of God, so I could do His will and purpose. He lives in me where my body become a "living sacrifice" for Him as a witness to the nations.

Romans 12:1 KJV
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

My body becomes a temple of God where His Spirit dwells:

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 KJV
[19] What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
[20] For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Point being, people will either have a spirit of God or a spirit of disobedience (spirit of antichrist). Those who have not yet born again with the spirit of God, will remain in a grave when they die until Second Coming. However, those who have been born again (with God's spirit) they will immediately go up into heaven to the Father and be with Him. That is why God said "blessed and holy" to those who took part in the first resurrection.

So while on earth, we do have spirit as Paul warned:

Galatians 5:16-17 KJV
[16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
[17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Notice what verse 22 says-----And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. How does one explain that part since this obviously isn't meaning the body of the person being carried by the angels? The text indicates this happens upon death.

That is a misconception about the parable. It is not talking about actual historical events with sinners waiting in hades while Saints are in "paradise" from afar off.

To know the truth about the PARABLE of Luke 16 may read here.
 
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TribulationSigns

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That's exactly the same thing. No one has been to heaven, except Christ. Seems pretty straight forward. Adding that second part to the sentence, does not change the first part.

Whatever you think. But for me and my house, I know Christ is the MAN who told me the heavenly things (spiritual discernment). This does not prevent His Saints who have died from coming into heaven to be with Christ.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Actually, I said not that we are given a soul, but that we are souls.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


By breathed life into us, we were given a soul.


And as for animals, they are no different from us. They too are living souls and they too return to the dust of the earth when they die, for dust is all they are.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

It does not say that the beasts become a living soul.

I suggest that you read the following article on where will animals, even your pet will go upon death.
 
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