What about the 2 witnesses Revelation 11

Who or what are the 2 witnesses symbolizing in Rev 11


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seventysevens

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So what? Does that mean the atmosphere didn't exist in the OT? What are you trying to say?
As said before - Elijah was taken to heaven where the LORD GOD is - exactly what the Holy Scripture clearly states outright - to assume that he fell to the earth is ridiculous as that ridiculous notion is in direct opposition to what the scripture says plainly
 
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LastSeven

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As said before - Elijah was taken to heaven where the LORD GOD is - exactly what the Holy Scripture clearly states outright - to assume that he fell to the earth is ridiculous as that ridiculous notion is in direct opposition to what the scripture says plainly

Come on. You know it doesn't say that. Why do you insist on fighting me every time I present evidence contrary to what you believe? Is it so hard for you to admit that you've learned something new?
 
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seventysevens

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Come on. You know it doesn't say that. Why do you insist on fighting me every time I present evidence contrary to what you believe? Is it so hard for you to admit that you've learned something new?
This matter is so elementary basic and simple , there is no place at all whatsoever in all of scripture where God took a Godly man that he is pleased with and took him only to the sky and just let him loose there in the sky - there is this thing called gravity that will cause the person to plummet down to the ground and die - they will not survive such a fall - it is known as elementary level sensibility - having the level of understanding what happens when you take something that weighs approx 200lbs high up into the sky and drop it.
AS I HAVE SHOWN MULTIPLE SCRIPTURES that every time God takes a Godly man - that man is taken to the presence of God = WHERE GOD IS

There is NEVER not so much as even a hint that God would ever take a Godly man into heaven and be meaning the sky so that man would just remain in the sky forever or that he would fall from the heaven that God took him to - what you have suggested is absurdity to the nth degree

2 Kings 2
When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.
3 The company of the prophets at Bethel came out to Elisha and asked, “Do you know that the Lord is going to take your master from you today?”

Scripture makes it crystal clear that the LORD was going to take Elijah to heaven - to the heaven where the LORD is - very clear indeed

1
And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah by a whirlwind into heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

You can believe whatever you want to - but you have no way of knowing when Eljiah penned that letter - you only know when it was received - it has been made abundantly clear that you should be seeking how to prove when the letter was written - several times I've had to call the water dept and asked them to send me a water bill and they would tell me that they sent it out 2 weeks ago ,but I never received it - there are literally thousands and thousands of this type of thing happening everywhere mail is delivered - the strongest likelihood is the same thing happened with this letter
What you suppose has no validity or sensibility as there is no scripture that says that God took anyone to heaven which is meant to be just the sky -
then what then ? just smoke dope to remain high ^_^

Clearly you have not thought this through - perhaps you should seek a pastor or a bible study and seek God and ask HIM to reveal to you

focus your attention on why God would do as you assume ,
 
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TribulationSigns

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And this is the sign of a mature and wise Christian. Someone who's not too proud to consider other possibilities, even if they contradict popular beliefs. Looking for the truth, whatever that truth may be.

After researching with the Bible, here is my biblical response:

I do not see anywhere that Elijah went up to heaven before he sent the letter to King Jehoram of Judah. Do you realize that there are two King Jehoram? Based on 1 Kings 22:50 and 2 Kings 1:17, Jehoram became King of JUDAH two years before a different King Jehoram became King of Israel!

It was not until the NEXT chapter at 2 Kings 2:11 (during the reign of this other King Jehoram of Israel) that Elijah went up into heaven.

Since King Jehoram of Judah (who received the letter from Elijah) had already been reigning two years by the time King Jehoram of Israel took the throne, Elijah could have easily sent his letter to King Jehoram of Judah before his ascension into heaven at 2 Kings 2:11.

As for Elijah going into heaven, I believe He did actually go into heaven where God is. Not a transportation through the "atmosphere" and placed him somewhere to contiune his earthly ministry and send a letter to King Jehoram. It does not make sense that Elijah was being "taken from" his apprentice Elisha after Elisha requested for "double portion" of Elijah's spirit upon leaving? It hardly seems relevant if Elijah was to resume his work on earth only a few years after the whirlwind incident.

Elijah, like all true believers, including Enoch, never died. But like all believers, his body died, while he was taken to heaven in his spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:50
"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

The body of this death cannot enter heaven because it is corrupted by sin, neither did Elijah's or Enoch's body. But like all believers, when his body died he became absent of his body and was taken into heaven. So no, Elijah was not on earth writing letters afterward. This myth has been floating around for years. It's been refuted by scripture many times.
 
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LastSeven

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You can believe whatever you want to - but you have no way of knowing when Eljiah penned that letter - you only know when it was received - it has been made abundantly clear that you should be seeking how to prove when the letter was written -
You really haven't been paying attention at all. The letter references the fact that King Jehoram killed his brothers as soon as he came to power. Which means he came to power (which we know happened 5 years after the whirlwind), then killed his brothers and then the letter was written. In that order.

You're right, this is elementary.
 
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seventysevens

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You really haven't been paying attention at all. The letter references the fact that King Jehoram killed his brothers as soon as he came to power. Which means he came to power (which we know happened 5 years after the whirlwind), then killed his brothers and then the letter was written. In that order.

You're right, this is elementary.
TribulationSigns gave you a good answer and explanation
 
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TribulationSigns

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You really haven't been paying attention at all. The letter references the fact that King Jehoram killed his brothers as soon as he came to power. Which means he came to power (which we know happened 5 years after the whirlwind), then killed his brothers and then the letter was written. In that order.

Well, after Jehoram murdered his brothers (evidently to secure his own rule), the king received a letter of rebuke from Elijah the prophet (2 Chr 21:12–15). This letter poses chronological problems because 2 Kings indicates that Elijah was taken up to heaven during the reign of Jehoshaphat sometime after Ahab’s death (cf. 1:1–3:11). My friend suggested that Elijah, having received a prophecy from the Lord about Jehoram’s future actions, penned the letter before being taken to heaven. Elijah then sealed the letter and left instructions for it to be delivered to Jehoram only after a certain event transpired (possibly the revolt of the Edomites when they installed a king [2 Chr 21:8]). One can only imagine the effect that Elijah’s letter, written years earlier but accurate in its foretelling of his evil deeds, had on Jehoram.
 
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LastSeven

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After researching with the Bible, here is my biblical response:

I do not see anywhere that Elijah went up to heaven before he sent the letter to King Jehoram of Judah. Do you realize that there are two King Jehoram? Based on 1 Kings 22:50 and 2 Kings 1:17, Jehoram became King of JUDAH two years before a different King Jehoram became King of Israel!
It was the son of Jehosephat who received the letter, and he was the king of Judah.

“This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. "

And it was this same son of Jehosephat who began his reign during the fifth year of Joram.

2 Kings 8:16
In the fifth year of Joram son of Ahab king of Israel, when Jehoshaphat was king of Judah, Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat began his reign as king of Judah.

And it was Joram who began his reign (2 Kings 1) just before the whirlwind (2 Kings 2).
 
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LastSeven

Amil
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Well, after Jehoram murdered his brothers (evidently to secure his own rule), the king received a letter of rebuke from Elijah the prophet (2 Chr 21:12–15). This letter poses chronological problems because 2 Kings indicates that Elijah was taken up to heaven during the reign of Jehoshaphat sometime after Ahab’s death (cf. 1:1–3:11). My friend suggested that Elijah, having received a prophecy from the Lord about Jehoram’s future actions, penned the letter before being taken to heaven. Elijah then sealed the letter and left instructions for it to be delivered to Jehoram only after a certain event transpired (possibly the revolt of the Edomites when they installed a king [2 Chr 21:8]). One can only imagine the effect that Elijah’s letter, written years earlier but accurate in its foretelling of his evil deeds, had on Jehoram.
It's only a chronological problem if you think Elijah went up to the third heaven, which we know he didn't because Jesus said so.
 
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seventysevens

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I do appreciate his effort to research and give educated responses.
But yet you would rather believe that Elijah was taken up into the sky and just left there , not going any further - even though a multitude of scriptures ALWAYS mean they go to be in heaven WITH GOD - NEVER anything close to what you are assuming
 
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LastSeven

Amil
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You do realize that Jesus said nobody has ascended up into heaven, right?
But yet you would rather believe that Elijah was taken up into the sky and just left there , not going any further - even though a multitude of scriptures ALWAYS mean they go to be in heaven WITH GOD - NEVER anything close to what you are assuming
It would be nice if you gave equally educated responses. They would be much easier to respond to than this mish mash of unsupported claims you like to throw out.
 
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TribulationSigns

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It's only a chronological problem if you think Elijah went up to the third heaven, which we know he didn't because Jesus said so.

You do realize that Jesus said nobody has ascended up into heaven, right?
It would be nice if you gave equally educated responses. They would be much easier to respond to than this mish mash of unsupported claims you like to throw out.

Of course, I do realize but you misunderstood what Christ said.

No one is trying to "write away" God's word. As I said, All of God's word is absolutely true. It's your understanding of it that is flawed. For example, God's Word that Elijah must come first (before Christ) was true, but the Judaizer's understanding of that word is what was flawed, not the word. Furthermore, John 3:13 doesn't say no one has ever gone into heaven, it says no one hath ascended into heaven but He (Christ) who came down from heaven. Meaning the people on earth to whom he is talking. For example, the ONLY man on earth who hath ascended up to heaven and came down to tell them of heavenly things, is Christ! Selah! The whole context illustrates this is what Christ was exegeting to them. Never cut out the context.

John 3:12-13
  • "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
  • And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
People like to "isolate" certain passages and read them in a vacuum, but the context is very plain that Christ is not saying no one who died ever went to heaven like Moses, Elijah and Enoch, etc. but no one (on earth) has gone to heaven to tell them of heavenly things except Christ who is the only one who came down from heaven "expressly for that purpose." That's not "writing away" scripture, that is circumspectly exegeting it.
 
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LastSeven

Amil
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Elijah, like all true believers, including Enoch, never died. But like all believers, his body died, while he was taken to heaven in his spirit.
And this is the foundational belief that leads so many believers down the wrong path. You can't possibly understand certain scriptures if you believe we are already immortal spiritual beings, in no need of resurrection and transformation. There is no spirit that goes to heaven when we die. Scripture clearly refutes that notion. When we die we return to dust to "sleep with our fathers" until the resurrection. It's as simple as that.
 
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TribulationSigns

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There is no spirit that goes to heaven when we die. Scripture clearly refutes that notion.

Show us that Scripture that specifically states that no spirit can go into heaven when we die?
 
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LastSeven

Amil
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Of course, I do realize but you misunderstood what Christ said.

No one is trying to "write away" God's word. As I said, All of God's word is absolutely true. It's your understanding of it that is flawed. For example, God's Word that Elijah must come first (before Christ) was true, but the Judaizer's understanding of that word is what was flawed, not the word. Furthermore, John 3:13 doesn't say no one has ever gone into heaven, it says no one hath ascended into heaven but He (Christ) who came down from heaven. Meaning the people on earth to whom he is talking. For example, the ONLY man on earth who hath ascended up to heaven and came down to tell them of heavenly things, is Christ! Selah! The whole context illustrates this is what Christ was exegeting to them. Never cut out the context.

John 3:12-13
  • "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
  • And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
People like to "isolate" certain passages and read them in a vacuum, but the context is very plain that Christ is not saying no one who died ever went to heaven like Moses, Elijah and Enoch, etc. but no one (on earth) has gone to heaven to tell them of heavenly things except Christ who is the only one who came down from heaven "expressly for that purpose." That's not "writing away" scripture, that is circumspectly exegeting it.
That's a real stretch, and it seems to me you're only making that stretch to fit with your notion that people go to heaven when they die.
 
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TribulationSigns

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That's a real stretch, and it seems to me you're only making that stretch to fit with your notion that people go to heaven when they die.

Well, what does the context of the passage really talked about? Christ has said that HE is the ONLY man on earth who hath ascended up to heaven and came down to tell them of heavenly things. Selah! This is what the whole context illustrates this is what Christ was exegeting to them. This has NOTHING to do with whether man has ever gone into heaven upon death (or taken).
 
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LastSeven

Amil
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Show us that Scripture that specifically states that no spirit can go into heaven when we die?

It doesn't say that no spirit can go into heaven when we die, because we do not have spirits. We are physical only, until the resurrection. That's when we become spiritual beings.

The following prove that we return to the dust of the earth when we die, and that we will lose all consciousness.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing
 
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seventysevens

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You do realize that Jesus said nobody has ascended up into heaven, right?

.
Not my fault that when I give you MANY scriptures that you don't understand them .
Just as what you say here in this post - a most often misinterpreted and misunderstood scripture verse you refer to - that you prefer to misinterpret to suit your preference -
 
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