Islam and Christianity - are they really the same religion?

Dave RP said:

Well in a way Paul and Mohammed are very similar. Both had a vision of God, it changed both their lives and both became followed by millions. Although their message may be different the background is similar. That's my point.

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Silly point. Such superficial similarities do not at all denote identity.

Dave RP said:

There is only one god according to these religions, the god of Jesus. Abraham, Moses etc. They do follow the same god, just in a different way.

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That doesn't mean they're describing the same God. One could be totally wrong.

I have one daughter. Let's say someone approached me and said, "I know your daughter" and then proceeded to describe someone totally unlike my daughter.

Just because he was correct in stating that I have a daughter does not mean the person he's describing is my daughter.

Dave RP said:

True, of course adherents of both religions and all their various offshoots will believe absolutely that they have got it right and everyone else has got it wrong. God must get very frustrated!

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Frustration is quite an appropriate response, but also there is some despair as well (you might consider the heart expressed through Jeremiah 9).

Dave RP said:

Well in a way Paul and Mohammed are very similar. Both had a vision of God, it changed both their lives and both became followed by millions. Although their message may be different the background is similar. That's my point.

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No, the message and the way in which the separate, distinctive theologies of Christianity and Islam, between Paul and Mohammad, are to be carried out are as different as light and day [maybe even as different as night and day]. Even a blind person could recognize this fact, and I'm guessing you're not blind. But this brother of mine, he knows the difference between these kinds of "comparisons":

Yeah,............sing it, Stevie! Sing it!

Dirk1540 said:

The strongest historical fact in all of Christianity is the death of Jesus of Nazareth on a cross by Roman crucifixion. Muslims say that this did not happen. Muslims choose to differ with Christians over our most grounded fact in history.

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Many Jews were put to death by Roman crucifixion. This is neither "special" in itself nor unique. What IS unique both historically and religiously is that He rose again, leaving an empty tomb. No one can defeat death by delaying it ... even for thousands of years. Jesus defeated death by entering it and breaking out, demonstrating that death could not hold him, even when he submitted to it. This is the fundamental historical fact underlying the Christian faith. And Paul himself said ...

Without Christ's resurrection and all it implies (the sinlessness and obedience of Christ, thereby His (highest) standing with God, His authority over everything given Him by the Father, His role as our intercessor, our reconciliation, our recompense, our hope, our goal, and much much more) faith in Christ is not only useless, it is downright pitiful self-delusion! It is even blasphemous in falsely representing God. But it is the resurrection that gives Jesus' death on the cross its supreme value - in the resurrection Jesus' righteousness is vindicated, his death is given value as a means of redemption for all those who believe in him.

Other significant differences between Christ's teachings and those of Mohammed (and to some degree even Judaism) include "love your enemies, bless those who curse you...," justification by faith graciously given by God, that none of us can come to faith "unless the Father draws us" (we are unable even to seek Him on our own, let alone please Him with our good deeds and offerings), a model prayer that includes the "downward" movement of the kingdom of God from heaven to earth NOW, within the hearts and lives of believers. The core "social morality" (as depicted in the 10 commandments) is broadly similar in all the major religions, including Islam, but it is in Christianity that we find that simply holding to these commands we do not and cannot earn our salvation (for instance they do not even address sins of omission - not doing bad things is NOT the same as doing good things). And there's much more.

Dave RP said:

The point I am making is they both follow the same god, both acknowledge Jesus as very special indeed, both believe Jesus will return to judge and destroy the devil, both believe in heaven and hell. To me the religions are so similar they can be considered almost as one and it is only cultural context or differing interpretations which separates them. That is why I find conflict between these two religions to be almost as ludicrous as as the catholic/ protestant wars/ conflicts of the 16th-20th centuries.

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I hate to say this because you seem like an intelligent guy, Dave, but you're essentially conflating two comparative sets of wrongs [Catholic/Protestant vs. Christianity/Islam] that aren't actually parallel.

You really need to do some intensive homework rather than just spouting off of the cuff in this way. It makes you look like you've barely scratched the surface on these subjects and are proceeding anyway to make deep evaluations based upon this superficial comparison.

Dave RP said:

I listen to Islamic radio sometimes (Voice of Islam, a London based radio station) and the other week they had a one hour special on why Jesus wasn't divine. It was actually quite interesting, the discussion revolved around quotes from the Bible and Muslim theologians discussing them and coming up with their interpretation. They discussed how Jesus could have survived the Crucifixion, and therefore was alive when placed in the tomb and still alive when he ascended to heaven. The main point being that normally crucifixions lasted three days, but according to Marks Gospel Jesus was only on the cross for 6 hours, their argument was that a strong man in his prime could easily survive 6 hours on the cross. Therefore they came to the conclusion that the bible supported the Quo-ran in allowing the fact that Jesus may have survived the cross. Therefore all his subsequent acts were easily justified by the fact that he was never dead.

They acknowledged Jesus importance in the "end days" and his defeating the forces of evil and his judgement. The only difference was whether or not he died on the cross and was resurrected.

Both religions state there is only one god, both state you shall have no other god but me, Christianity fudges this with the difficult concept of father, son and holy spirit being three separate things but the also one thing - and most Christians would struggle to explain that.

Hence I still maintain that these two religions have way more in common than many people realise , and that is that was more publicly acknowledged, there would be a lot less strife in the world. If I ever develop a belief in god, it will be one god only, for all humanity, not just those who happen to be taught a particular religion.

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Of course they have something in common, and so does the DC and Marvel amalgamated universe .... the only reason that similarities exist between Christianity and Islam is that the earliest Islamicists amalgamated their local spiritual notions with major elements from Judaism and Christianity as they each respectively existed in and around the Near East and Mediterranean during the late 6th and 7th centuries A.D., among other things.

I mean, be consistent. If you're going to impute that Christianity borrowed notions from pagan religions to "arrive" at the idea of Jesus as the Son of God, then do the same at least in your attempt to understand what Islam could be. (Of course, then after that, in order to really have academic clarity and integrity, you'll need to sift through the specific religious ideas themselves to try to see just exactly to what extent each idea may have been amalgamated fully, partially, or not at all.)

Daniel9v9 said:

In some respects, Islam is closer to Judaism as they are both work-righteousness religions, whereas Christianity is properly God's grace through the visible image of God: Jesus Christ.

Christians do not worship the same God as Islam (nor Judaism - contrary to some beliefs), for we worship Jesus.

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Well we do worship the same God as the Jews we just have different ideas of him. We just believe Yahweh came to Earth as a man while Jews deny this, that’s the main difference and dividing line between us. Christianity can trace its origins to the Jewish faith, Islam can’t trace its origins anywhere, because as I’ve said it has no exact divine origin, it’s like the Frankenstein’s monster of world religions. Islam also denies the prophets being Jews, it denies that Isaac was chosen and transfers his blessings to Ishmael and says he was the child of sacrifice not Isaac. It even denies the prophets prayed facing Jerusalem and transfers the location to Mecca.

Dave RP said:

Well in a way Paul and Mohammed are very similar. Both had a vision of God, it changed both their lives and both became followed by millions. Although their message may be different the background is similar. That's my point.

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Paul didn’t think he was possessed by the devil when he first received revelation from God and run to his wife claiming he saw a demon as Mohammed did. Neither did Paul end up conquering and converting places in the Roman Empire at the edge of a sword in the name of Jesus Christ as Mohammed did in the name of Allah.

Dave RP said:

I listen to Islamic radio sometimes (Voice of Islam, a London based radio station) and the other week they had a one hour special on why Jesus wasn't divine. It was actually quite interesting, the discussion revolved around quotes from the Bible and Muslim theologians discussing them and coming up with their interpretation. They discussed how Jesus could have survived the Crucifixion, and therefore was alive when placed in the tomb and still alive when he ascended to heaven. The main point being that normally crucifixions lasted three days, but according to Marks Gospel Jesus was only on the cross for 6 hours, their argument was that a strong man in his prime could easily survive 6 hours on the cross. Therefore they came to the conclusion that the bible supported the Quo-ran in allowing the fact that Jesus may have survived the cross. Therefore all his subsequent acts were easily justified by the fact that he was never dead.

They acknowledged Jesus importance in the "end days" and his defeating the forces of evil and his judgement. The only difference was whether or not he died on the cross and was resurrected.

Both religions state there is only one god, both state you shall have no other god but me, Christianity fudges this with the difficult concept of father, son and holy spirit being three separate things but the also one thing - and most Christians would struggle to explain that.

Hence I still maintain that these two religions have way more in common than many people realise , and that is that was more publicly acknowledged, there would be a lot less strife in the world. If I ever develop a belief in god, it will be one god only, for all humanity, not just those who happen to be taught a particular religion.

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Christianity engaged in a worldwide cover up for decades (probably centuries) of child rape, and yet still Islam is by far the worst thing to have ever happened to humanity.

The most unfortunate thing I have going for me as an atheist is the nearly automatic association with the left. The farther left you go, the more you find people who think that Islam is a religion of peace. They would probably think my remark above is racist. Incidentally, the opposite is true.

The Old Testament contains kill orders very similar to the Koran. Execute disobedient children, execute homosexuals, and so on. Joshua, portrayed as a hero, orchestrated ethnic cleansing just like Hitler. So why is it that Christians aren't doing these things today, yet Muslims are? To say it's not a doctrinal issue is to strongly imply it's a cultural issue, and that is the most racist thing you could say about Muslims: to say that their despicable behavior is not due to their religious indoctrination, but rather due to their natural society.

The fact is that there's no comparing these two religions. Yes they both use some of the same elements, but the resurrection of Christ is the linchpin and Muslims say it didn't happen. That difference, and the obscenity of Islam, should be sufficient to divide these religions quite clearly.

Nihilist Virus said:

Christianity engaged in a worldwide cover up for decades (probably centuries) of child rape, and yet still Islam is by far the worst thing to have ever happened to humanity.

The most unfortunate thing I have going for me as an atheist is the nearly automatic association with the left. The farther left you go, the more you find people who think that Islam is a religion of peace. They would probably think my remark above is racist. Incidentally, the opposite is true.

The Old Testament contains kill orders very similar to the Koran. Execute disobedient children, execute homosexuals, and so on. Joshua, portrayed as a hero, orchestrated ethnic cleansing just like Hitler. So why is it that Christians aren't doing these things today, yet Muslims are? To say it's not a doctrinal issue is to strongly imply it's a cultural issue, and that is the most racist thing you could say about Muslims: to say that their despicable behavior is not due to their religious indoctrination, but rather due to their natural society.

The fact is that there's no comparing these two religions. Yes they both use some of the same elements, but the resurrection of Christ is the linchpin and Muslims say it didn't happen. That difference, and the obscenity of Islam, should be sufficient to divide these religions quite clearly.

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Yeah.....while you're right about several things here, the idea that Joshua "orchestrated ethnic cleansing just like Hitler" is a false analogy.....and I've already dealt with this issue in debating with another guy here at CF several months ago on this very thing. Case closed. (Of course, atheists just can't help wanting to exhume the body of this overly beaten dead horse.)

Dave RP said:

I listen to Islamic radio sometimes (Voice of Islam, a London based radio station) and the other week they had a one hour special on why Jesus wasn't divine. It was actually quite interesting, the discussion revolved around quotes from the Bible and Muslim theologians discussing them and coming up with their interpretation. They discussed how Jesus could have survived the Crucifixion, and therefore was alive when placed in the tomb and still alive when he ascended to heaven. The main point being that normally crucifixions lasted three days, but according to Marks Gospel Jesus was only on the cross for 6 hours, their argument was that a strong man in his prime could easily survive 6 hours on the cross. Therefore they came to the conclusion that the bible supported the Quo-ran in allowing the fact that Jesus may have survived the cross. Therefore all his subsequent acts were easily justified by the fact that he was never dead.

They acknowledged Jesus importance in the "end days" and his defeating the forces of evil and his judgement. The only difference was whether or not he died on the cross and was resurrected.

Both religions state there is only one god, both state you shall have no other god but me, Christianity fudges this with the difficult concept of father, son and holy spirit being three separate things but the also one thing - and most Christians would struggle to explain that.

Hence I still maintain that these two religions have way more in common than many people realise , and that is that was more publicly acknowledged, there would be a lot less strife in the world. If I ever develop a belief in god, it will be one god only, for all humanity, not just those who happen to be taught a particular religion.

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Actually Jesus was tortured and lashed and beaten severely so much that his back was shredded and his face disfigured. The common portrayals we see of Jesus on the cross were probably cartoonish when compared to the real thing. Futhermore Jesus was forced to drag the cross all the way to Cavalry where he was crucified. Futhermore the Gospel of John tells us that the Roman soldiers stabbed Jesus in the side of his chest to check if he still yet lived, obviously if Jesus was still alive then he would have moved or yelped a bit, but this never happened, it would have also been impossible for any man to survive such torture and live without medical assistance. Either way the Quran says Jesus was neither killed nor was he crucified so even if Jesus was somehow alive when he was placed into the tomb it would further violate the Quran which denies Jesus was ever crucified or entombed in the first place.

What Muslims like to do is act all tough in their comfort zone while misquoting bible verses to prove their point, when I’ve confronted many Muslims who constantly misquoted the Bible to prove their point and explained to them what the verse was really saying in its proper context, they sly away back to their zones of propagating Islamic propaganda. Christianity doesn’t fudge the concept of one God while Islam does, contrary to what most people think. The concept of the Trinity is harder to explain then simply stating there is one God, but it in no way fudges the Monotheism out, it actually proves there is a specific doctrine of Monotheism. Islam has no doctrine on what it really means by saying there is one God, furthermore Muslims don’t know what constitutes Shirk and what doesn’t. Meanwhile virtually all Christians will agree that the Trinity is Orthodox Christian doctrine. Also you seem to be mistaking the Quranic character Isa for the Biblical Jesus, plagiarizing a religious figure into a religion he would never follow or would have no idea about, then changing his name (while remotely interpreting and considering him to be the very same religious icon of the religion you plagiarized him from), put teachings into his mouth which he did not teach, change his personality, and then edit his claims, and you’ve got a totally different person right there. The Islamic Isa has almost nothing to with the Biblical and historical Jesus.

Daniel9v9 said:

Well, yes and no - Rabbinic Judaism, which has its roots in Pharisaical thinking, positively rejects Christ and in doing so consequently rejects the Father. That’s why, even though early Christians worshipped side by side with practicing Jews in Synagogues, strictly speaking, we’re not worshiping the same God.

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I disagree there, Jews reject he concept of Yahweh coming as a man named Jesus, however Christians worship Yahweh as Jews do, the dividing line all comes down to Jesus being Yahweh incarnate.

Double post

Dave RP said:

See my response #14 above.

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Christian theology implodes if Jesus did not die on the cross, it would become an incoherent message. If a religion has claims that if applied to another religion would cause its theology to implode, they can not be the same religion.

And this doesn’t even get into the details of crucifixion, which is death by asphyxiation. If you ‘Are strong enough to survive’ (as you say) much longer than Jesus did it means that you must keep pushing yourself up with your legs to avoid dying by suffocation. This is why the Romans would break the person’s legs sometimes to speed things up. You can’t ‘Be Strong’ by playing dead in the hopes to fool the executioner, if you play dead and stop pushing you will die for real.

Dave RP said:

There is only one god according to these religions, the god of Jesus. Abraham, Moses etc. They do follow the same god, just in a different way.

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Your thin criteria literally causes the word heresy to be a non-existent term.

No. Yahweh is not 'shared' by Christianity and Islam. Islam is directly opposed to Yahshua HaMashiach Savior Messiah, no mixing.