Is the Rapture shown in 1Thess 4 showing in Revelation? If so, where?

Is the Rapture showing in Revelation?


  • Total voters
    25

seventysevens

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2017
3,207
844
USA
✟38,043.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
1.)Well, According to Jesus, the great tribulation is God's wrath against the Jewish people:
.
Well , you have chosen to disregard various other scriptures . Due to the length of your post , I will get back to it later but this topic has been discussed multiple times in multiple threads and the same people are involved in each one of them , therefore I know what you believe and why , unless you changed your position since the last time
If you choose to read only a couple verses and ignore the rest you will end up with a lack of understanding , the GT will begin in Israel but it is not limited to that country , and Jesus also says that the Hour of TRIAL is for anyone that has not repented , it would be foolish to think that only Jews will be affected - well then now if you follow the amil false doctrine; they say that everyone is a Jew ;)
You see how foolish it is when people pick and choose which verses they want to apply and when they want to apply it :)
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But it is true that the BORN AGAIN Church is not found after chapter 4 -IF you understand what the scripture is telling -

It only takes three verses read by an unbiased witness to show the error of your logic.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.


Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.


Can you show us the term "BORN AGAIN" in the Book of Revelation?

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

Can you explain, based on the three verses above, how those in Revelation 12:11 under the blood of the Lamb are not "born again" believers possessing the Spirit of God?


.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well , you have chosen to disregard various other scriptures

Ironic, considering another poster called you out for not supporting your opinions with scripture. See post #44

Due to the length of your post , I will get back to it later

I look forward to a scriptural based rebuttal.

I won’t hold my breath though. There’s around 46-50 pages of discussion on another thread where a poster asked you to provide scriptural evidence for your rapture view, and for some reason, through all those responses, you refused to provide scripture.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

seventysevens

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2017
3,207
844
USA
✟38,043.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Ironic, considering another poster called you out for not supporting your opinions with scripture.



I look forward to a scriptural based rebuttal.
When I read your posts I have to laugh , I have debated with you many many times over the months and I provide scripture to back up what I say - you may not agree with what i say - and so what that is your prerogative , but if you don't recall all the times i give scripture then you have more problems than just your error in understanding the bible

When I have told you many times that when you make posts that are so long that there are multiple points to address , I will either answer one point or none because I do not have the amount of time to spend all of my free time on just your posts

so if you want a rebuttal then you will need to make much shorter posts
I have been through these topics multiple times with you - you have an entirely different amil/preterist view so obviously you believe in symbolism and not a real understanding of scripture ,
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When I read your posts I have to laugh , I have debated with you many many times over the months and I provide scripture to back up what I say - you may not agree - and so what that is your prerogative , but if you don't recall all the times i give scripture then you have more problems than just your error in understanding the bible

When I have told you many times that when you make posts that are so long that there are multiple points to address , I will either answer one point or none because I do not have the amount of time to spend all of my free time on just your posts

so if you want a rebuttal then you will need to make much shorter posts
I have been through these topics multiple times with you - you have an entirely different amil/preterist view so obviously you believe in symbolism and not a real understanding of scripture ,
No scripture......
 
  • Like
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

Erik Nelson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2017
5,118
1,649
46
Utah
✟347,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
One would think so. Thks for posting.

I suppose I should quote the whole passage.
As time permits, I will look at the greek of each verse and see where some of those words apply in Revelation and the Olivet Discourse.

First, Paul uses the same greek word #3952 in vs 15 that is used in Matthew 24
[note that this greek word #3952 is used only 4 times in the Gospels, all in Matt 24]


Matthew 24:3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came toward to Him according to own, saying,
"be telling us! when shall these be?
and what the Sign of the Thy parousiaV <3952>,

and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?"

KJV)
1 Thessalonians 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming/parousian <3952> of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
maybe "Parousia" represents a spiritual (non-physical) coming event?

would fit a Rev 19/Rev 20 context

Eph 2:2 speaks of the Demonic domination of "the air"... perhaps Christians rising into the "air" symbolizes the Church rising into and spiritually conquering "Demonic territory" and so a "victory over Demonic influences" ?

Eph 2:2 uses the word "aer" (air) in a manner spiritually similar & comparable to 1 The 4:17 and Revelations. Acts and 1 Cor usages appear, prima facie, more incidental & trivial by comparison.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I’m actually not seeing where it says the resurrection/rapture occurs specifically before the day of the Lord.

According to Jesus the resurrection occurs after the great tribulation, after believers flee the tribulation, when sign of the son of man appears in heaven:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 24:29-31&version=ESV
claninja, you are interpreting Matthew 24:31 to be the resurrection/rapture. Correct?

But what it is in that verse is the gathering of the Jews from the nations around the world - not the resurrection nor the rapture. How do I know?

In Ezekiel 39, which is divided into two parts - although it doesn't state it in the text, a person has to be knowledgeable about Revelation to realize it - Jesus is speaking in verse 21, saying that he had just taken
judgment out on them in verses 17-20.

Jesus continues through the remainder of Ezekiel 39 to say why the Jews went into the diaspora. But now (at that future time) they will know that he is the LORD their God. And that he has gathered them all back into their own land, the Matthew 24:31 verse, and have left none of them in the nations.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Take another read of Ezekiel 39, verses 17-29 again, if you would.

Ezekiel 1-16 - the destruction of Gog's army right before
Daniel 9:27 - the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years, which ends with
Ezekiel 17-29 - the Armageddon feast and Jesus having returned to earth.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: LLoJ
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
claninja, you are interpreting Matthew 24:31 to be the resurrection/rapture. Correct?

Correct, because:

According to the book of Daniel, The resurrection happens after the tribulation:
Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
According to Jesus the angels are sent at the end of the age to harvest
Matthew 13:39 The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
According to Jesus, the angels gather the elect at the end of the age, at his coming after the tribulation:
Matthew 24:30-31 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthc will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
According to Paul, the dead rise at Christ's coming
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
According to Paul, after the dead rise, then those who are alive will be caught up
1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them


n Ezekiel 39, which is divided into two parts - although it doesn't state it in the text, a person has to be knowledgeable about Revelation to realize it - Jesus is speaking in verse 21, saying that he had just taken
judgment out on them in verses 17-20.

Jesus continues through the remainder of Ezekiel 39 to say why the Jews went into the diaspora. But now (at that future time) they will know that he is the LORD their God. And that he has gathered them all back into their own land, the Matthew 24:31 verse, and have left none of them in the nations.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Take another read of Ezekiel 39, verses 17-29 again, if you would.

Meshech and Tubal were nations that existed in Asia minor when Ezekiel wrote this. The book of Ezekiel states that God will clearly send them to the mountains of Israel and on the mountains they will fall. Meshech and Tubal no longer exist and definitely did not exist by the 1st century. Considering Jerusalem is much farther south than a lot of the mountains of Israel, it appears that Meshech and tubal would have been destroyed before they even reached Jerusalem.

Ezekiel wrote this chapter during Babylonian captivity
Ezekiel 39:25 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob
Psalm 85 is believed to have been written upon Israel's return from Babylonian Exile.
Psalm 85:1-2
You showed favor to Your land, O LORD; You restored the fortunes of Jacob. You forgave the iniquity of Your people;You covered all their sin.

The last verse of Ezekiel 39 has already been fulfilled:
Ezekiel 39:29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
God poured out his spirit on Israel at Pentacost in the first century.
Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: “ ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,418
6,797
✟916,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30
 
Upvote 0

seventysevens

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2017
3,207
844
USA
✟38,043.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Ironic, considering another poster called you out for not supporting your opinions with scripture. See post #44



I look forward to a scriptural based rebuttal.

I won’t hold my breath though. There’s around 46-50 pages of discussion on another thread where a poster asked you to provide scriptural evidence for your rapture view, and for some reason, through all those responses, you refused to provide scripture.
i will say this that whatever thread you are talking about it was probably as foolish as this one has become . Because of those who refuse to read/study and learn All of the bible , from cover to cover as it is written without modifying it to fit a foolish doctrine . in order to get the most accurate best understanding you must lean WHY there is Great Trib- What Jesus says it for , you must learn WHY there is a rapture and what it's purpose is for , you must learn Gods HOLY DAYS which are the Holy Feast Days that God commanded Israel to celebrate and WHY God commanded this . You must learn understand the Reasons of WHY God commands these things The Wheat Harvest ,The Barely Harvest and the Grapes Harvest are all about the rapture , they are directly intricately part of these HOLY DAYS of God , but you don't want to study all you want to do is play match a word , and find what seems like and seems similar then make assumptions just like Rev 20 , you refuse to accept it as it is written , you refuse to believe that satan will be locked in prison fro 1000 years explicitly as JESUS tells it !
You refuse to accept Jesus will rule on earth , you refuse to accept scripture AS IT IS WRITTEN , you make up your own definition of what scripture means that is often opposite of what it says and means , every time I show scripture you will say that it means something other than what it says , just as you are doing with douggg and anyone who engages with you ,

Rev 20
He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

there are no other scriptures in the entire bible that speaks of satan being in prison for 1000 years , but yet you say that satan has been in prison , what scripture do you have that proves that fallacy ?
After 1000 years satan is set free , but he has not yet been put in prison because he is roaming the earth until Jesus returns - then again you say that Jesus will not return physically - YES he does but you will not accept this fact ! you spend all of your time trying to match of words and spend no time learning what the words really and truly mean - This is why it be a waste of time to gather together all the scriptures of the topic because of previous experience with you and other amil/preterists you will not accept the true meaning of the scripture and misapply them , just as when Revelation was written 99% of all sources agree that it was written between 93AD -96AD but you will not accept it because it defeats your whole doctrine .

I have tried in the past to save time by providing some links to sites that can show more info , but whenever it shows the error of your doctrine you reject it so again it becomes pointless to give them to you, ALL scripture fits together but your entire doctrine it 100% dependent on 70AD as if there was no other reason for the bible to exist except to tell about 70 AD
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: claninja
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
i will say this that whatever thread you are talking about it was probably as foolish as this one has become . Because of those who refuse to read/study and learn All of the bible , from cover to cover as it is written without modifying it to fit a foolish doctrine . in order to get the most accurate best understanding you must lean WHY there is Great Trib- What Jesus says it for , you must learn WHY there is a rapture and what it's purpose is for , you must learn Gods HOLY DAYS which are the Holy Feast Days that God commanded Israel to celebrate and WHY God commanded this . You must learn understand the Reasons of WHY God commands these things The Wheat Harvest ,The Barely Harvest and the Grapes Harvest are all about the rapture , they are directly intricately part of these HOLY DAYS of God , but you don't want to study all you want to do is play match a word , and find what seems like and seems similar then make assumptions just like Rev 20 , you refuse to accept it as it is written , you refuse to believe that satan will be locked in prison fro 1000 years explicitly as JESUS tells it !
You refuse to accept Jesus will rule on earth , you refuse to accept scripture AS IT IS WRITTEN , you make up your own definition of what scripture means that is often opposite of what it says and means , every time I show scripture you will say that it means something other than what it says , just as you are doing with douggg and anyone who engages with you ,

Rev 20
He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

there are no other scriptures in the entire bible that speaks of satan being in prison for 1000 years , but yet you say that satan has been in prison , what scripture do you have that proves that fallacy ?
After 1000 years satan is set free , but he has not yet been put in prison because he is roaming the earth until Jesus returns - then again you say that Jesus will not return physically - YES he does but you will not accept this fact ! you spend all of your time trying to match of words and spend no time learning what the words really and truly mean - This is why it be a waste of time to gather together all the scriptures of the topic because of previous experience with you and other amil/preterists you will not accept the true meaning of the scripture and misapply them , just as when Revelation was written 99% of all sources agree that it was written between 93AD -96AD but you will not accept it because it defeats your whole doctrine .

I have tried in the past to save time by providing some links to sites that can show more info , but whenever it shows the error of your doctrine you reject it so again it becomes pointless to give them to you, ALL scripture fits together but your entire doctrine it 100% dependent on 70AD as if there was no other reason for the bible to exist except to tell about 70 AD
All of that trivial nonsense aside, I am still waiting for your vote.............
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Correct, because:

According to the book of Daniel, The resurrection happens after the tribulation:
Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
According to Jesus the angels are sent at the end of the age to harvest
Matthew 13:39 The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
According to Jesus, the angels gather the elect at the end of the age, at his coming after the tribulation:
Matthew 24:30-31 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthc will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
According to Paul, the dead rise at Christ's coming
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
According to Paul, after the dead rise, then those who are alive will be caught up
1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them
claninja, you are drawing the wrong conclusions from a multitude of verses.
The last verse of Ezekiel 39 has already been fulfilled:
Ezekiel 39:29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
God poured out his spirit on Israel at Pentacost in the first century.
Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: “ ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Again, you are drawing the wrong conclusion.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

There are countless Jews currently in the nations around the world. And guess what? The Jews (even in Judaism) themselves believe that the messiah is going to gather all of them back to the land of Israel.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
claninja, you are drawing the wrong conclusions from a multitude of verses.

I could say the same about you and provide no support for my opinion. Instead, maybe point out specifics, or why the verses I quoted don’t meant what they say.

Again, you are drawing the wrong conclusion.

Again, I could say the same about you.

Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

This assumes that wicked non repentant israel is part of true Israel.

Again, I provided in regards to Israel return from exile:

Lord, you were favorable to your land; you restored the fortunes of Jacob.
Psalm 85:1 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 85:1&version=ESV

There are countless Jews currently in the nations around the world.

I agree, true Jews are all over the world:

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
Romans 2:28-29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 2:28-29&version=ESV

And guess what? The Jews (even in Judaism) themselves believe that the messiah is going to gather all of them back to the land of Israel.
Wasn’t israel looking for a military leader to overthrow the romans and set up an earthly kingdom?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Wasn’t israel looking for a military leader to overthrow the romans and set up an earthly kingdom?
Yep. They probably still are.
I think they have a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that Jesus is both God and Man

Zephaniah 3:17
The LORD your God is in your midst; He is a warrior who can deliver.
He takes great delight in you; He renews you by his love; He shouts for joy over you."'


Exodus 15:3
The LORD is a man of war;
The LORD is His name.


Revelation 19:
11

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse!
The One sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
14
And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I could say the same about you and provide no support for my opinion. Instead, maybe point out specifics, or why the verses I quoted don’t meant what they say.

Again, I could say the same about you.
The difference is I am showing you the exact verse in Ezekiel 39:28 that says none of the Jews will be left in the nations. Which has not happened yet. So Ezekiel 39:29, the following verse, is not about what took place in Acts.

Ezekiel 39:17-29 is end times. And versus 17-20 is the feast on the dead bodies on them who will have gathered at Armageddon to make war on Jesus. How do you get around verses 17-20, being a match for Revelation 19:17-18?

And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.



17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


This assumes that wicked non repentant israel is part of true Israel.
All of Israel will have embraced Jesus as being the messiah by the time Armageddon takes place in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Again, I provided in regards to Israel return from exile:
You can prove from a map the city of Hamongog, Ezekiel 39:15-16?

Wasn’t israel looking for a military leader to overthrow the romans and set up an earthly kingdom?
The Jews still expect the messiah to be a great military and political leader. The little horn person, following Gog/Magog, will appear to fit the requirements to the Jews... to bring in the messianic age of peace and safety.

Which is going to turn out to be a disaster, and they turn to Jesus. Which all ends in Ezekiel 39:17-20 when Jesus returns to destroy the armies, following that person after he becomes the beast, which will gather to make war on Jesus.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I think they have a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that Jesus is both God and Man
Their issue is that in their minds Christians are saying Jesus became God. Instead of thinking of it as the Lord of Heaven, God, entering this world adding to his being God to also becoming a man, which the bible puts it as became flesh. It is not like there was a man existing back before the creation to create everything.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You stated this:
claninja, you are drawing the wrong conclusions from a multitude of verses.
as a response to verses that show the Resurrection/rapture occur after the tribulation, at the coming of Christ (Daniel 12, Matthew 13, Matthew 24, 1 corinthians 15, 1 thessalonians 4). So I would appreciate why my conclusions are wrong about those specific verses from post #74?


The difference is I am showing you the exact verse in Ezekiel 39:28 that says none of the Jews will be left in the nations. Which has not happened yet.

God's promises have never failed for true Israel:
Romans 9:4,6 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the Law, the temple worship, and the promises.
It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

God brought Israel out of exile after 70 years, just as promised
1 Chronicles 36:21 So the land enjoyed its Sabbath rest all the days of the desolation, until seventy years were completed, in fulfillment of the word of the LORD through Jeremiah.

God fulfilled the shadow, restoring Jacobs fortune upon returning Israel from exile:
Ezekiel 38:25 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob
Psalm 85:1 LORD, you were favorable to your land;you restored the fortunes of Jacob.

Additionally, the earthly promise land was only a shadow of the true reality.
Galatians 4:26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
Hebrews 11:16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one
Hebrews 11:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem

The Old covenant no longer exists, so why should the terms of the old covenant still exist (promise land)?

So Ezekiel 39:29, the following verse, is not about what took place in Acts.

So you believe in 2 'last days' where the spirit is poured out then?
Ezekiel 39:29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
Acts 2:16-17 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

"My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you". Definitely a reference to Christ.
John 6:53-55 Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

No drinking of blood is mentioned. No mountains are mentioned. Additionally, Just before, revelation mentions Jesus having a sword in his mouth to strike down the nations. Is Jesus literally holding a sword in his mouth and swinging his head around? No, of course not. Its the gospel that he uses.

All of Israel will have embraced Jesus as being the messiah by the time Armageddon takes place in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

I agree. Not all of Israel is true Israel, thus by God saving only the remnant of Israel, which is true Israel, God saves all of Israel.

Romans 9:6, 27
For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:“Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
Romans 11:25-26 do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this waye all Israel will be saved.



You can prove from a map the city of Hamongog, Ezekiel 39:15-16?

No more than a futurist can

The Jews still expect the messiah to be a great military and political leader. The little horn person, following Gog/Magog, will appear to fit the requirements to the Jews... to bring in the messianic age of peace and safety.

It appears there are Christians waiting for this as well: an earthly political power. It appears, they too, interpret scriptures just as the Jews, who rejected Christ, did.

The Prophecy of Ezekiel 39 is against Gog, who is the ruler of Meshech and Tubal
Ezekiel 39:1 Son of man, prophesy against Gog and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince ofa Meshek and Tubal.
If we notice, In Ezekiel 29, God prophecies against Egypt
Ezekiel 29:2 Son of man, set your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt and prophesy against him and against all Egypt
God states he will use Babylon to conquer Egypt
Ezekiel 29:17,19-20 In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month on the first day, the word of the Lord came to me. Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and he will carry off its wealth. He will loot and plunder the land as pay for his army. I have given him Egypt as a reward for his efforts because he and his army did it for me, declares the Sovereign Lord.
In Ezekiel 32, God prophecies that Egypt will go down into the pit
Ezekiel 32:17-18 In the twelfth year, on the fifteenth day of the month, the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, wail for the hordes of Egypt and consign to the earth below both her and the daughters of mighty nations, along with those who go down to the pit
Notice, that by the time Egypt gets to the pit, Assyria, Elam, MESHECH AND TUBAL are already there.
Ezekiel 32:26 Meshek and Tubal are there, with all their hordes around their graves.

Do the nations of Meshech and tubal exist today?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums