OSAS/Perseverance of saints & salvation without faith

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Saint Steven

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I am presuming, Steve, that I am currently saved.

I am NOT presuming that it is impossible for me to walk away in the future - as Yogi Berra would say
"It aint over til its over."
The whole thing sounds rather presumptuous to me. lol
You sound unconvinced.

2 Timothy 1:12
That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet this is no cause for shame, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.
 
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Saint Steven

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What was wrong with how I parsed the scriptures?
I prefer my scriptures unparsed.
The word after a comma in a sentence should not be capitalized as if it is the beginning of a new sentence.
 
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Anto9us

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What have you done there?
Verse 8 ends with a comma and verse 9 begins with a capital "A"

Oh, that's just the way KJV has it - we know there are no commas in Koine Greek - that the uncials were ALL CAPS and the later miniscules only used capital letters for first word of a paragraph or proper name
 
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JIMINZ

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Then they cannot bear it if OSAS is not true, for if so their whole system would tumble, their false set of theological constructs collapses.
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Couldn't it also be said.

Those in opposition to OSAS.

They could not bear it if OSAS were found to be true, for if so, their whole system would tumble, their false set of theological constructs collapses.
 
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SeventyOne

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Those don't seem to be so much holes as you are reading philosophical speculations into terms and circumstances which aren't necessarily implied or demanded by scripture.

First:
The seal of the Holy Spirit doesn't require that we will necessarily continue in faith. That isn't a connotation 'seal' has. For example, the seal on Jesus' tomb didn't literally seal him in or prevent Jesus from leaving- it showed the authority of Rome over anyone who would dare tamper with the seal. In a similar fashion, the seal of the Holy Spirit is God's guarantee that He will uphold His promises and His seal of authority over anyone who would try to snatch someone in the covenant away. But the seal doesn't prevent a person from exiting that contract by rejecting faith - and subsequently rejecting any claim to the promises he would have had had he remained.
[Question: What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/29251?ori=167400]


The seal has a time constraint given. It's not "until we sin" or "until we walk away", it's until the day of redemption. Any assumed point before that makes the passage out to be claiming a falsehood.


Second: While a few verses reference a loss of reward or standing due to lack of works or sin, etc. there are many passages which clearly describe someone who does not continue in faith or remain in Christ as being cut out of the body of Christ and being destroyed, or with a final state worse than their pre-faith state of unbelief, or having no more sacrifice for sins, or being condemned, etc. (Rom 11:10-22, Jn 15:5-6, etc.) These cannot all be lumped together as many are explicitly clear that for a person to reject Christ after once believing will lead to themselves being denied before the Father.
[Question: What exactly does "fall away" mean in Heb 6:6?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/28836?ori=167400
Question: Does Hebrews 10:26 mean that a believer can lose salvation?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/7631?ori=167400]

Spend a bit more time in Hebrews. You will see the people described in those passages are not the born again. The chapter 6 passage describe those who knew the truth mentally, knowledge only, and keep reading in chapter 10 as it goes on to show again different peoples in scope, those who shrink back, and those who do not, we the writer states we are not of those who shrink back. Believers are those who do continue in faith, thus resolving any such potential conflicts and allowing one to rightly divide when different people groups are being referenced.


Third: 'Re-creation' is a nonsensical phrase to apply to someone who returns to a former state or goes back to something he was once involved in, and so not finding it from scripture isn't just an argument from silence but is illogical. When we physically die God doesn't 're-create' us into dust - we decompose or are burned and 'return' to dust. Likewise someone who once had faith and rejected it is not 're-created' into their former state but rather 'returns' to it. The indwelling Spirit departs since they are not a believer, and without the Spirit they cannot continue in life with Christ. Hosea's wife wasn't 'recreated' into a prostitute when she returned to her old ways. A freed slave is not 're-created' into a slave if he returns to an old master. When God removed the priesthood he promised to Levi's descendents from Eli's family, they were not 're-created' into non-priests. A dirty person who washes is not recreated into a dirty person when they return to the mud. Fruit that ripens isn't 'recreated' into non-fruit when it later rots. Etc.
Scripture uses terms like 'twice dead (Jude 1:12),' 'return/again entangled (II Pet 2:20-22)' etc. to describe these people.

That silence is problematic for your position.

It does literally say we are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17) and the righteousness of God (v21). God even foretells of the new covenant when has a people with His laws written on their hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16). This is a change in our nature when we are born again, literally becoming something different.

So, yes, to prove a loss of salvation, you would have to prove an additional re-creation to a former state. The 'silence' won't cut it.

If you've found those verses spelling it out, please let me know.



4th: Redemption doesn't stop us from rejecting God or ceasing to trust Him. How many times did Israel turn away and reject God, despite that they were the nation God redeemed? But more importantly, we only can have Christ's redemption if we have faith.

"The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal 3:11-14

If we reject that faith, then we return to being under the law and hence return to condemnation.

"For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we hold redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Col 1:3-14

If we reject faith and stop remaining in Christ, then in whom do we hold redemption?

Israel as a nation of of mostly fallen men is the same as those individually re-created and purchased by His blood and sealed by His Spirit?

You are really reaching on this one, by comparing apples to oranges. You assume the rejection of God by fallen men is the same as if a re-created man would ever be able to reject God. You can't show first that such a person ever would do so, and you can't prove what would happen even if he were capable of trying.


5th: God 'buying us' doesn't mean He bought us from Satan or some person and that person or Satan would have to 'buy us back.'

We were redeemed from the curse of the law, Galatians 3:13; from God's wrath, Ephesians 2:3; from guilt and bondage to sin, Romans 3:19-21; and redeemed as God’s property (Ephesians 2:19; Ephesians 1:14.) The price God paid was the blood of Christ (Matthew 26:28; 2 Corinthians 5:18; Ephesians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:18; Revelation 5:9, etc.) The church is represented as the property of Christ and in some sense our redemption reflects our corporate redemption as God's people as well, much as He redeemed Israel. But who did God 'pay' the blood of Christ to? Not to Satan. Not to us. Not to any human. Rather, Christ shed his blood as our kinsman redeemer - the Jewish practice that a kinsman could pay the debt of another. The 'debt' was our guilt under the law and hence our bondage to sin.

We don't have to 'repay' that debt. God erased it. No one owes it to anyone anymore. The account is closed. But when we reject faith and return to the law? We no longer have basis to claim our sins 'covered' by Christ and will in fact be incurring new debts moment by moment. We no longer can claim the redemption of the King. We exit God's redeemed people. We return ourselves to being subject to the wrath of God. And such a person *does* pay their debt - at the judgement when they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

I'm not talking about the payment of our debt, which also doesn't help your point at all since we are told the debt was completely paid from the point of the cross, not from the point of our repentance. You are adding sin after our repentance and claiming that sin renews our debt and denying Colossians 2:13-14 in the process.

I'm talking about the verses which proclaim we've been purchased and belong to Him. We are His body, and He is the head of that body. We've become one single corporate entity under Him.


I did notice that you did take each point and try to use unrelated examples to explain them away, but I will give you kudos for actually mentioning the points.

That said, if you have verses that describe how to become unsealed by the Spirit prior to the day of redemption, which hasn't happened yet, and if you can show the verses describing the re-creation back to a fallen state where He removes His law from our hearts, and if you can show where it's described how we are able to purchase ourselves from God and what is the acceptable price of the purchase, then you'll have something.

As we are given these characteristics of the truly saved. To cease to be saved would require these characteristics to be altered back to a prior state.
 
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Rescued One

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I have never denied or truly lost faith that Jesus is the one and only way. Have I doubted? Sure, many times. Would I like to believe I can never stop having faith in my God? Sure. I have been deeply involved with churches who taught OSAS, but never fully convinced, because I have to remain true to scripture, not to any mans teaching. People say you can never lose it and come back, but I've seen it happen. The only way Eternal security makes sense to me is under some form of determinism, which I also don't find to be biblical.

I hate the term OSAS. But God is able to keep those whom He saves and I don't like sitting in churches with the pastor saying there is nothing God can do to convert a sinner. I'm in awe of a God Who can change hearts.
 
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JIMINZ

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They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (Lk.8:13)

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I'm sorry about the length of this post, but you are the one who posted all of these verses, which needed to be explained correctly.


There are those who erroneously believe, this Parable is about Salvation and
those that lose it except the one which fell on good ground.

First, it must be understood all Parables are only about the Kingdom of God, and only spoken to the Jews of that specific Generation by Jesus.

Mat 13:10,11
10) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Therefore, your understanding of this verse to mean someone losing their Salvation is incorrect,

Jesus was telling the Disciples the Jewish Nation was losing the Kingdom, not that Christians lose their Salvation.


holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. (1 Tim.1:19)

This verse is sort of difficult because of the wording itself, the word (Shipwrecked) it would appear as though you are saying these persons are LOST, or have lost their Salvation.

Going under that assumption, I say lets look at the next verse where Paul clears up what he has said....He expounds about what his meaning is.

1Ti 1:20
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Taking this part first, lets remember what Paul said to the Corinthians.

1Co 5:4,5
4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Now the second part.

1Ti 1:20
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1Co 5:5
4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

You see, Paul in his use of the word (Shipwrecked) did not mean or refer to being LOST, but (STRANDED) the person didn't go down with the ship, the ship ran aground, it was only WRECKED, it didn't sink, the ship could still be salvaged, and the men could be rescued.

Therefore your understanding of this verse to mean someone losing their Salvation is incorrect.


The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. (1 Tim.4:1)

.
This verse taken out of it's context sure sounds like what you believe it says, but lets take a closer look at it.

1Ti 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Looking at what you have posted sounds pretty damming, but in it's full context the explanation comes through.

1Ti 4:2,3
2) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3) Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Jesus said this about that.

Parable of the Tares.
Mat 13:28-30
28) He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29) But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So then as we see, these were some of the Tares Prophesied about by Jesus, they never did have Salvation.

Mat. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

John 10:27-29
27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Therefore your understanding of this verse to mean someone losing their Salvation is incorrect.


22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23 if indeed you continue in your faith (Col.1:22-23a)

As with one of the verses above, this verse is sort of difficult also because of the wording itself, the words (If You Continue) would appear as though they are casting doubt upon someones ability to remain in the Faith as a Believer, someone who would walk away so to speak, you are saying they have a great possibility to walk away, or lose their Salvation, but you would be wrong, because this is not the case in this verse.

The rendering of (If You Continue) in the Greek actually says,

IF-SURELY - - - - - - YE-ARE-ON-REMAINING
since-surely - - - - - - ye-are-persisting

Col 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Therefore your understanding of this verse to mean someone losing their Salvation is incorrect.


How much worse punishment do you think will he deserve, the one having trampled upon the Son of God, and having esteemed ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and having insulted the Spirit of grace? (Heb.10:29)

If I may, I'm going to put this single verse into a context, because the way it sounds when it is out of context is very damning isn't it?......That's better.
Now there is your context, let's listen fully to the words of Paul.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Paul explains the Sacrifice made for us from 1-18
Then from 19- 39 he explains the assurance of faith in that Sacrifice.
But in 26 he impresses on them (us) "IF" you sin willfully, there isn't any more repentance for you, take into account though Paul is speaking of a Willful Sinner, and not every Christian the way you are attempting to portray them.
I suggest you read the entire Chapter, you have totally missed everything Paul was saying.


Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised,
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Heb 10:26-29
26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Therefore your understanding of this verse to mean any Christian losing their Salvation is incorrect.......It's speaking specifically about a Willful Sinner, which Christians are not.
 
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Saint Steven

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Couldn't it also be said.

Those in opposition to OSAS.

They could not bear it if OSAS were found to be true, for if so, their whole system would tumble, their false set of theological constructs collapses.
I agree.
In actuality OSAS is being used as a derogatory term.
Why shouldn't those who believe in eternal security be treated with the same respect as those who don't.

A misnomer as well.
I don't know of anyone who is considered OSAS that actually believes that one couldn't potentially "lose" their salvation. Even then, how can you lose what you don't already have?

In fact, which requires more faith?
To believe that God will be faithful to his own, or to believe we can't trust God on this until we are actually standing in heaven given the "final approval"?

Which better describes what we believe about our heavenly Father?
That he loves his own and can be trusted to carry them safely home to be with him forever, or that he will need to consider our case carefully to see whether we deserve to join him in eternal bliss?

The tendency is to believe God grades on a curve, and we hope to squeak by with a passing grade. I think the "grading" is PASS/FAIL. You are either in or out.

This doesn't mean that a person cannot forfeit their salvation, but ultimately, that is God's decision, not ours. What can separate us from the love of God?
 
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Eloy Craft

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Mark 14:18
And when they had taken their places and were eating, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.”
Luke 22:21
But see, the one who betrays me is with me, and his hand is on the table.

None of them knew who among them believed and who did not. Only Jesus and Judas knew.

Matthew 26
“Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.” 22 And they became greatly distressed and began to say to him one after another, “Surely not I, Lord?”

John 13
he asked him, “Lord, who is it?” 26 Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” So when he had dipped the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas son of Simon Iscariot. 27 After he received the piece of bread, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “Do quickly what you are going to do.” 28 Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. 29 Some thought that, because Judas had the common purse, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the festival”; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30 So, after receiving the piece of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.

They had no idea who was saved or not saved. God doesn't make our eternal condition visible. His final judgment is not seen on earth.

Acts 5
3 “Ananias,” Peter asked, “why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, were not the proceeds at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!” 5 Now when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard of it.

If they were being taught that they had eternal security the believers would not be seized with great fear. In fact Peter would have just sent them to heaven. The fact is no one can be eternally secure until our life on earth is a done deal. God doesn't make our eternal condition visible. Eternal security doesn't square with faith. Faith can offer a sure hope but it's not good to presume God's judgment. Faith Hope and Love is what God gives us. If someone really did know without doubt they were going to heaven, and it was true, it would be cruel to tell anyone else since it isn't a gift they can give. To me it's something being sold by those who need someone else to believe it because down deep they really aren't sure.
 
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Loren T.

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I agree.
In actuality OSAS is being used as a derogatory term.
Why shouldn't those who believe in eternal security be treated with the same respect as those who don't.

A misnomer as well.
I don't know of anyone who is considered OSAS that actually believes that one couldn't potentially "lose" their salvation. Even then, how can you lose what you don't already have?

In fact, which requires more faith?
To believe that God will be faithful to his own, or to believe we can't trust God on this until we are actually standing in heaven given the "final approval"?

Which better describes what we believe about our heavenly Father?
That he loves his own and can be trusted to carry them safely home to be with him forever, or that he will need to consider our case carefully to see whether we deserve to join him in eternal bliss?

The tendency is to believe God grades on a curve, and we hope to squeak by with a passing grade. I think the "grading" is PASS/FAIL. You are either in or out.

This doesn't mean that a person cannot forfeit their salvation, but ultimately, that is God's decision, not ours. What can separate us from the love of God?

So which is it? You say it's either pass or fail and in the same post say we can potentially lose our salvation. I'm left with having no idea what you really believe, as your posts about it are very confusing and contradictory.
And no one is debating whether the Father loves his own or whether he can be trusted or whether he is able to carry us safely home. The question is whether we can reject him, not whether he will reject us.
 
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Sam91

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So which is it? You say it's either pass or fail and in the same post say we can potentially lose our salvation. I'm left with having no idea what you really believe, as your posts about it are very confusing and contradictory.
And no one is debating whether the Father loves his own or whether he can be trusted or whether he is able to carry us safely home. The question is whether we can reject him, not whether he will reject us.
That's the thing. We all agree on the Father's attributes, what Jesus did on the cross, that it's by faith and not works. We agree on most points with those who agree with OSAS.

They just explain away all the warnings and ignore many sections. The verses they quote for OSAS we also hold dear because they speak of our Faithful God, who will keep us strong in Him.
 
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Are you claiming that you can lose your salvation?
How can you lose what you never had?

We receive the salvation of our soul as an end result of our faith in Christ for salvation.

So if we depart from our faith, then we no longer have the substance of the salvation we once hoped for.


JPT
 
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JLB777

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they speak of our Faithful God, who will keep us strong in Him.

If we continue to believe.

If we abide in Him.

How do we abide in Him?


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB
 
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Anto9us

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Couldn't it also be said.

Those in opposition to OSAS.

They could not bear it if OSAS were found to be true, for if so, their whole system would tumble, their false set of theological constructs collapses.

There are doctrines other Christians believe that I don't.
I don't believe in OSAS.
I don't believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture.
I don't believe in "soul sleep".
I don't believe in Annihilation.
I don't believe in a Magisterium of infallible human teaching as the Roman Catholics do.

Yet if all of those things turn out to be true -- No, my whole system doesn't tumble, I can bear it. Even within Arminianism, OSAS is not a Deal Killer -- there are boards where most Arminians are OSAS.

But no matter how anyone else would like to re-word it -- OSAS is a pillar of TULIP, of Calvinism.

OSnAS was never a pillar of Arminianism, it was always open about "if a believer could become an unbeliever" -- yet the very POSSIBILITY that a saved person could become lost is anathema to Calvinism.

This issue of "maybe it was a false conversion -- maybe they were never truly saved" is smashed by the "blotted out of the Book of Life" verses. It is God Almighty who writes a name in the Book of Life -- there is no possiblility that He writes in someone who made a "false profession".

Humans may never know who was "serious" or "true" in their profession of faith, but God certainly knows.

And we have warnings to saved Christians to beware lest their name be BLOTTED OUT of the Book of Life.

No OSAS believer has addressed this -- in two threads -- one 30 pages of posts, this one seven. It is time for me to say -- if OSAS believers can address the "Blotted out of the Book of Life" verses; do so.

Or else admit that the OSAS doctrine is false, a man-made construction.
 
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aiki

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To you who believe in OSAS or "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints". Which of you hold to a perspective that a believer will still be saved even if he loses faith?

What do you mean by "loses faith"? Did he mislay his faith, like a pair of car keys lost among the sofa cushions? Do you mean he became doubtful about the veracity of the Christian faith to the point that his doubt crowded out his trust in Christ and the Gospel? Do you mean he began to compromise morally and grew careless spiritually and now has backslidden into a deeply immoral state? All of the above? None?

I might ask you also what you mean by "faith." What kind of faith are you talking about, exactly? Non-believers exercise faith in a multitude of things every day: doctors, their spouses, other drivers on the road, dentists, hairdressers, light switches, chairs, etc. Is this sort of practical, mundane faith the faith you're talking about? Or is the faith that saves something more, something different?

I've never heard that one before. [Though i think i'd stick with Heb.11:6 & Jn.3:36 as quoted before.] I wonder if all those who believe in "eternal security" (or OSAS or "Perseverance of the saints") hold to such a view.

If someone willfully and entirely abandons the faith, it seems evident to me that in doing so they reveal that they were never truly saved.

If i understand your viewpoint, it is that 1 Tim.1:19-20 refers to believers who lost their faith but are still saved while in unbelief. The same passage refers to such being given over to Satan for correction.
1 Timothy 1:19-20
19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck,
20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.


What does it mean to suffer "shipwreck"? Why must it mean "lose salvation"? Were Hymenaeus and Alexander actually born-again believers? Why would we assume that they were given their rejection of the faith and their blasphemous conduct? What little else is said about these two does not paint a picture of men who were saved (2 Timothy 4:14-15; 2 Timothy 2:17-18). Why, then, assume they were saved and then somehow lost their salvation? How does what is known of them demand such a conclusion? I don't see at all that is does.

The only other passage referring to such a giving over to Satan for correction is 1 Cor.5:4-5. But there its purpose is to bring a so-called "brother", who was "wicked" (vs.11-13) to salvation (v.5).

Paul never actually calls the sinning member of the Corinthian Church a brother, except in a second-hand sort of way in verse 11. Even there, though, Paul doesn't actually say that this sinning fellow he has judged is actually a Christian brother. I'm not of the opinion, then, that this chapter in 1 Corinthians is good ground for asserting that a Christian can be engaged in a willful, persistent and comfortable lifestyle of sin and still be saved. It seems evident to me that such living reveals a lack of genuine spiritual regeneration.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
 
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Anto9us

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I would be concerned with what GOD considers a "loss of faith".

It is He who wrote a person's name in the Book of Life to begin with -- there is no chance in that case of a "false conversion" -- so the "never was saved to begin with" card cannot be played, gosh, I am sick of hearing that tripe.

A person truly saved -- name in Book of Life -- is still subject to warnings of being blotted out, and subject to overcoming and not being blotted out.

This "never saved to begin with" idea is a bunch of hooey in the context of what we are talking about.

Yes, to some, Christ would say "Depart from me - I never knew you".
But there are others to whom He says "Depart from me - I know ye not from whence ye are"!
 
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