Is the Fetus a Human Being?

Jon Osterman · Jul 19, 2018

Aldebaran said:
Do you think a "fetus" and a baby only look alike out of sheer coincidence? https://geneticliteracyproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/66d5a40a439bbc3f6ff0a27852d72bb3.jpg

What about this one? Does this look like a human being to you?

Jennifer Rothnie · Jul 19, 2018

ubicaritas said:
I'm done debating this issue with you until you can learn some respect and compassion for women. I am willing to guess the overwhelming majority of women get abortions because they see no other choices. "Convenience" trivializes them.

??? Do you speak for all women? By what authority? You find advocating that women should feel it's OK to have their own children be slaughtered is 'compassion' and 'respect?'

Isn't it more compassionate and respectful for women struggling in hard times to give them those women real aid and choices, as many pro-life organizations do, to help with finances, resources, and skills in child rearing?

Not, "Oh well it's too much trouble for me to actually help you. Your best bet is to just have your kid ripped limb from limb - that will really make your life better." <- That's the opposite of compassion and respect.

Did you know that in approx 64% of abortion cases, the woman was pressured or coerced to get an abortion? Are those spouses, doctors, boyfriends, parents, employers, and others 'respecting' her by pressuring her to have her kid murdered? And 79% are not made aware of alternatives and other resources and choices. Is that being compassionate and helping give them more options?
http://www.theunchoice.com/pdf/FactSheets/ForcedAbortions.pdf

And based on a Guttmacher report as to self-reported reasons U.S. women abort, here are some findings:

Only 4% of respondents cited health concerns as the main reason for abortion.
Only 3% of respondents cited possible fetal abnormalities as their main reason for abortion.
Less than 0.5% of respondents cited rape as their main reason for abortion.
Only 1% of respondents cited rape as a reason for their abortion.
6% of respondents cited parental pressure as a reason for their abortion.
14% of respondents cited partner pressure as a reason for their abortion.
25% of respondents cited the desire to keep their sexual activity a secret as a reason for their abortion.

Keeping sex a secret hardly sounds like the woman had 'no options.' Parental pressure and partner pressure certainly don't sound like 'no options' - and wouldn't punishing someone who forced or pressured a woman into murder make far more sense than advocating murder as a solution?

[Another interesting finding from the Guttmacher study: 1/3 of interviewed women said they considered adoption (they had a choice) but rejected it as "morally unconscionable option because giving one’s child away is wrong." So it wasn't their lack of choice, but a twisted social morality that promotes murder as OK but giving over your child to another family as wrong, that they were up against.]

Or look at some findings among Florida women who aborted their children in 2015 (in a study with much more credible than Guttmacher's):
.001% The pregnancy resulted from an incestuous relationship
.065% The woman’s life was endangered by the pregnancy
.085% The woman was raped
.288% The woman’s physical health was threatened by the pregnancy
.294% The woman’s psychological health was threatened by the pregnancy
.666% There was a serious fetal abnormality
6.268% The woman aborted for social or economic reasons
92.330% No reason (elective)

I think your speculation that the 'majority of women' have 'no choice' might actually be backwards.

Aldebaran · Jul 19, 2018

Jon Osterman said:
What about this one? Does this look like a human being to you?

View attachment 234775

What about it? Shall we kill it because it doesn't look like you or me? That argument seems to work on a racial level. Does it work on the more fundamental level of what looks human?

Jennifer Rothnie · Jul 19, 2018

Jon Osterman said:
What about this one? Does this look like a human being to you?

View attachment 234775

It looks like the embryo of a dog, actually, but then that's not my area of expertise. It hardly matters what my opinion of what an organism should look like is but rather it matters what the DNA of the organism is.

I think a human embryo would look closer to this, but again my personal opinion doesn't affect the species of an organism one way or another.

Aldebaran · Jul 19, 2018

Jennifer Rothnie said:
??? Do you speak for all women? By what authority? You find advocating that women should feel it's OK to have their own children be slaughtered is 'compassion' and 'respect?'

Isn't it more compassionate and respectful for women struggling in hard times to give them those women real aid and choices, as many pro-life organizations do, to help with finances, resources, and skills in child rearing?

Not, "Oh well it's too much trouble for me to actually help you. Your best bet is to just have your kid ripped limb from limb - that will really make your life better." <- That's the opposite of compassion and respect.

Did you know that in approx 64% of abortion cases, the woman was pressured or coerced to get an abortion? Are those spouses, doctors, boyfriends, parents, employers, and others 'respecting' her by pressuring her to have her kid murdered? And 79% are not made aware of alternatives and other resources and choices. Is that being compassionate and helping give them more options?
http://www.theunchoice.com/pdf/FactSheets/ForcedAbortions.pdf

And based on a Guttmacher report as to self-reported reasons U.S. women abort, here are some findings:

Only 4% of respondents cited health concerns as the main reason for abortion.

Only 3% of respondents cited possible fetal abnormalities as their main reason for abortion.

Less than 0.5% of respondents cited rape as their main reason for abortion.

Only 1% of respondents cited rape as a reason for their abortion.

6% of respondents cited parental pressure as a reason for their abortion.

14% of respondents cited partner pressure as a reason for their abortion.

25% of respondents cited the desire to keep their sexual activity a secret as a reason for their abortion.

Keeping sex a secret hardly sounds like the woman had 'no options.' Parental pressure and partner pressure certainly don't sound like 'no options' - and wouldn't punishing someone who forced or pressured a woman into murder make far more sense than advocating murder as a solution?

[Another interesting finding from the Guttmacher study: 1/3 of interviewed women said they considered adoption (they had a choice) but rejected it as "morally unconscionable option because giving one’s child away is wrong." So it wasn't their lack of choice, but a twisted social morality that promotes murder as OK but giving over your child to another family as wrong, that they were up against.]

Or look at some findings among Florida women who aborted their children in 2015 (in a study with much more credible than Guttmacher's):
.001% The pregnancy resulted from an incestuous relationship
.065% The woman’s life was endangered by the pregnancy
.085% The woman was raped
.288% The woman’s physical health was threatened by the pregnancy
.294% The woman’s psychological health was threatened by the pregnancy
.666% There was a serious fetal abnormality
6.268% The woman aborted for social or economic reasons
92.330% No reason (elective)

I think your speculation that the 'majority of women' have 'no choice' might actually be backwards.

Here is the attitude of the ones who think abortion is just the greatest thing:

It's too bad that it's getting to be so widespread.

Hillsage · Jul 19, 2018

Jon Osterman said:
This sort of post is really out of line. No-one is encouraging the killing of "babies". An early stage foetus cannot be considered a "baby" and no-one would call it this unless they were trying to lie and deceive.

I'm going to have to make a small but more compassionate 'addition'. "lie and deceive" 'or are themselves deceived'.

redleghunter · Jul 19, 2018

ubicaritas said:
Wow, sounds almost Lutheran in its logic. That's close to our attitude on the subject as well. Nobody has the right to make you a martyr for moral purity. Some things are deeply personal and they are between you and God.

Actually the pastor was being a pastor.

ubicaritas said:
But we do not emphasize the obligation to live a holy life the way Reformed or Wesleyans do. Pastor Fisk makes that clear in that video I reference earlier.

Does pastor Fisk have the NT in his canon? Really I have to ask as you were presented several passages from the NT only to reply "Law" each time.

Hillsage · Jul 19, 2018

Jennifer Rothnie said:
It looks like the embryo of a dog, actually, but then that's not my area of expertise. It hardly matters what my opinion of what an organism should look like is but rather it matters what the DNA of the organism is.

I think a human embryo would look closer to this, but again my personal opinion doesn't affect the species of an organism one way or another.

View attachment 234776

It's good to admit ones limits concerning their 'expertise'. I do question your post though. You wouldn't be interested in keeping your DNA carcinoma alive would you? I didn't think so. You don't even need to respond. Actually please don't. No offense intended, just want you to think more critically about what comes out of your....keyboard.

Jennifer Rothnie · Jul 19, 2018

ubicaritas said:
There's plenty of empty rhetoric, framing, and posturing like that though on the anti-abortion side of the debate.

Jeez, I'm not so much pro-choice just pro-reality. I actually consider myself a non-ideologue. I think Cassey's verdict that fetal viability is a critical point is a good start to ending the debate among rational people about abortion. If a fetus can survive outside the womb then we start to have reasons to scrutinize the personal choice about abortion.

If you were ejected from an airlock, could you survive in space? No? Could you survive in a chamber of poison gas? How about if you were placed inside someone's womb or artificial womb like conditions? No? I guess you aren't viable then.

'Viable' simply means the capability to survive inside of a particular environment. Obviously if you remove an organism from its current natural environment into an unnatural environment, let alone an environment hostile to that stage of it's development, it may not be viable at all. While viability in certain environments can indidate stage of development (pre or post hatching, for example) it doesn't change the organism into a new species.

Furthermore, viability is a complete red herring. Abortion doesn't simply expel the child from the womb and let it naturally die. Most abortions directly kill the human while inside the womb (chemically, dismemberment, acid, vaccuum, stopping implantation, etc.) The mother's body then natural expels any remaining dead human tissue and other womb tissue *because* the child is dead. The murder is what leads to the changing of environment - the change in environment is not what leads to the child dying.

redleghunter · Jul 19, 2018

Aldebaran said:
One good reason not to abort a baby. The baby could grow up and have offspring of their own.

One of the saddest accounts over the past 6 years was visiting and taking care of my parents in their last few years on this pilgrimage on earth. The elderly couples or widows/widowers who did not have children and hoped to rely on nephews or nieces to advocate for them. It really breaks the heart to see and of course when I was there I did what I could legally to help them out. But at that stage their main problems are their health and finances. I don't know how many times I had to fight with doctors, hospitals, physical therapists and physical rehab homes for both my mom and dad as they became ill and infirm in their mid 80s. Oh the church helped a lot down there in Florida, but they cannot fight with doctors legally on your behalf and manage the finances to make sure they are not getting ripped off. That's quite frankly, at that age, the responsibility of sons and daughters.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 19, 2018

Jon Osterman said:
What about this one? Does this look like a human being to you?..

Can't (and shouldn't) go by looks, not as seen by the eye....
Isaiah 52:14 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
Just as there were many who were appalled at him -- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness--

New Living Translation
But many were amazed when they saw him. His face was so disfigured he seemed hardly human, and from his appearance, one would scarcely know he was a man.

English Standard Version
As many were astonished at you— his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—

Berean Study Bible
Just as many were appalled at You—His appearance was disfigured beyond that of any man, and His form was marred beyond human likeness—

Jennifer Rothnie · Jul 19, 2018

Hillsage said:
It's good to admit ones limits concerning their 'expertise'. I do question your post though. You wouldn't be interested in keeping your DNA carcinoma alive would you? I didn't think so. You don't even need to respond. Actually please don't. No offense intended, just want you to think more critically about what comes out of your....keyboard.

Um, since when is carcinoma a genetically distinct, complete human organism? It's just cancer cells. Even normal healthy cells are constantly dying and replacing themselves.

Individual cells, masses of cells, and even organs are a far cry from complete organisms.

A human is a genetically distinct/unique, complete, developing human organism from the moment of conception. Throughout his life countless cells will die and be replaced. He may even get cancer someday. The death of individual cells or malignant cells will never affect his humanity.

redleghunter · Jul 19, 2018

ubicaritas said:
The ten commandments are a decent start for the bronze age as guidelines for living a moral life. They are not ethical absolutes.

Does the ELCA call them the 10 Guidelines?

redleghunter · Jul 19, 2018

ubicaritas said:
but that doesn't necessarily imply that God is a legalist

Would you say that God is Just? Because we do know that "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne." (Psalm 97:2)

Aldebaran · Jul 19, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Can't (and shouldn't) go by looks, not as seen by the eye....
Isaiah 52:14 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
Just as there were many who were appalled at him -- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness--

New Living Translation
But many were amazed when they saw him. His face was so disfigured he seemed hardly human, and from his appearance, one would scarcely know he was a man.

English Standard Version
As many were astonished at you— his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—

Berean Study Bible
Just as many were appalled at You—His appearance was disfigured beyond that of any man, and His form was marred beyond human likeness—

If He were to be seen as a fetus in the womb before He began to look human, some would say that it would have been ok at that point for Mary to have an abortion. A woman's right to choose, after all. It's even quite possible, as Jesus stood before the crowd, the people cried out "Crucify, Crucify" because of the way He looked at the time after He had been beaten by the Roman guards.

Karin12414 · Jul 19, 2018

Hey, here's a simple "solution" lol let's promote abstinence AND safe sex teaching in schools and make it easier and possible to PREVENT unwanted pregnancy? It's a wild suggestion, but what do you say?

Let's not be separated by this and instead look for REALISTIC ways to help PREVENT this instead of fighting abortions so much? It is proven that teens that are well informed and provided with resources (condoms, birth control, ect.) are less likely to have unwanted pregnancies... which can lead to less abortions... just sayin'...

http://www.siecus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Feature.showFeature&featureID=1041

redleghunter · Jul 19, 2018

ubicaritas said:
I'm done debating this issue with you until you can learn some respect and compassion for women. I am willing to guess the overwhelming majority of women get abortions because they see no other choices. "Convenience" trivializes them.

Perhaps the use of 'convenience' is not as precise as what we are really discussing here. Which is the premeditated termination of a healthy human being developing in the womb. We cannot escape even after page after page of posts that upwards to 98% of procured abortions performed involve a decision to terminate the human life in the woman's womb with both the human fetus healthy and pregnant woman healthy.

For whatever reason is given, the above remains the fact of the matter.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 19, 2018

QUOTE="Karin12414, post: 72963276, member: 411281"]Hey, here's a simple "solution" lol let's promote abstinence AND safe sex teaching in schools and make it easier and possible to PREVENT unwanted pregnancy? It's a wild suggestion, but what do you say?

Let's not be separated by this and instead look for REALISTIC ways to help PREVENT this instead of fighting abortions so much? It is proven that teens that are well informed and provided with resources (condoms, birth control, ect.) are less likely to have unwanted pregnancies... which can lead to less abortions... just sayin'...
...[/QUOTE
=================================
Yahweh, Jesus, all the faithful Apostles and faithful disciples, all the men and women and children faithful to Yahweh
all have agreed with this "simple 'solution'" for thousands of years.

The world is still getting worse and more deadly, fast.

(too much money, greed, pride and flesh involved in the world)

Karin12414 · Jul 19, 2018

Yahweh, Jesus, all the faithful Apostles and faithful disciples, all the men and women and children faithful to Yahweh
all have agreed with this "simple 'solution'" for thousands of years.

The world is still getting worse and more deadly, fast.

(too much money, greed, pride and flesh involved in the world)[/QUOTE]

Agreed... but that doesn't mean we should give up trying.

I am just as opposed to abortions as any other Christian should be, but they aren't going away. The world is ran by non-believers and sinners and they don't care about morality, so why not just play the system and get ahead of the "problem"?

Abortion is an issue? How do we get ahead of it? by educating ALL students about sex COMPLETELY and HONESTLY. I remember my sex-ed class in high school and I didn't learn anything but how to look for a lump in my breast or a ball -_-" While that is information we need to know, it left me completely oblivious to sex. I STILL am not as informed about it as I probably should be and I'M A MOTHER!!!

I don't think abortions are the problem, kids that know NOTHING about sex and going for it UNPROTECTED is the problem!

Phil 1:21 · Jul 19, 2018

ubicaritas said:
If a fetus can survive outside the womb then we start to have reasons to scrutinize the personal choice about abortion.

http://theabortionsurvivors.com/

I guess it's time for you to start scrutinizing a few things.

Is the Fetus a Human Being?

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Thank You Jesus!

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