How do you get saved?

Bible2+ said:

Romans 3:31 means that Christians establish the Old Covenant Mosaic law not in its letter, but in its spirit (Romans 7:6), by loving others (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Matthew 7:12).

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As Christians, we also establish the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law as a schoolmaster to lead unbelieving sinners to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25, Psalms 19:7, Romans 3:20).

Bible2+ said:

Not initially (Ephesians 2:8-9), but ultimately (James 2:24).

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Ultimately also; for Ephesians 2:9 does not make a distinction; it does not say that a man is not saved by works only initially, it says he is not saved by works period. Likewise the same in Romans 4:5 and context, Titus 3:4-7, and Romans 11:5-6.

Also James 2:24 is speaking of justification, which has as its definition being declared righteous. So then, we are declared righteous by man when we do good works; however before God we are justified by faith alone (Romans 4:5 and context). In Romans 4:1-2 if Abraham was justified by works he hath whereof to glory, but not before God (in other words, it is only before man that he was justified by works).

Bible2+ said:

It's both.

For John 15:2a refers to Christians, who are branches in the vine of Jesus Christ, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from Him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

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Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ from beginning to end and all the way through (Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3). Good works/obedience are the result of a living faith in Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Romans 16:26).

Bible2+ said:

Matthew 7:21-23 shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for Christians to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). But, because of free will, there is no assurance that Christians will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole, like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole. For Matthew 7:22 could refer to Christians, believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance, they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that is one of the signs that people are Christians, believers in the Gospel (Mark 16:17). People must be careful not to fall into the unforgivable presumption of Mark 3:22-30.

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And the point that I was making was that Matthew 7:22-23 shows that someone can do many good works and yet not be saved; which indicates that they are not saved by works; but by faith alone in Jesus Christ...which transforms the heart (2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 5:5 w/ 1 John 3:17-18) so that it is the inclination of the person who has a living and saving faith in Christ, to do good works. The transformation itself does not happen because of any work of righteousness that I have done or can do (Titus 3:4-7); but through faith in Christ, which brings about the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, making the believer a new creature in Christ with godly and righteous inclinations (again, 2 Corinthians 5:17). Therefore salvation, which I define as the transformation I am speaking of, is by faith alone in Christ and not by any work of righteousness that I can do or have done (Titus 3:4-7).

Bible2+ said:

It's not either/or, but both/and (Hebrews 5:9).

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The fruit that we bear is the evidence of a saving faith but not the cause of salvation. The cause of salvation is that we are rooted and grounded in the love of God through faith in Jesus Christ. If I do not bear good fruit, Christ will see that as the evidence that I am not rooted and grounded in His love. Therefore if I don't bear good fruit I will be taken out of the vine as a branch and men will gather me, and cast me into the fire, and I will be burned. But not because I lack the bearing of good fruit. The lack of good fruit is only the outward indication that I am not saved; that I am not connected to the vine and drawing up nourishment from the source. I would be cast into the fire and burned as the result of the fact that I am not connected to Jesus; not because I am not bearing good fruit. The fact of not bearing good fruit is only the thing by which God determines that I am not connected to Jesus if I am not connected to Him.

The question that will be the prevailing indicator of whether I am saved or not saved on the day of judgment is not that God will ask, "What fruit did you bear/ what good works did you do for me?" No; the prevailing question that God the Father will ask is, "What did you do with my Son?" And if I say that I received Him, it will be determined whether I bore fruit in keeping with being a new creature in Christ. The fruit would be an indicator of whether I truly had a relationship with Christ; but the deciding factor concerning whether God will let me into the kingdom will be what I did with Jesus.

And also, if you focus on being planted firmly in good soil, fruit will automatically develop in your life as a result of the fact that you are rooted firmly in good soil; as is the case with every healthy plant. I know of no healthy plant firmly planted in good soil and tended to constantly by a good husbandman that will not bear good fruit in due season; it is only those plants that are not planted in good soil; or those planted that are not tended to by the husbandman, that do not bear good fruit. That is the nature of plants.

justbyfaith said in post #220:

Living faith will produce good works . . .

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It's the other way around. We must do good works for our faith to remain alive.

That is, God grants initial salvation by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born without their works. But just as an infant after he is born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if he is to remain alive, so a new Christian after he is born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2), does not mean that Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

justbyfaith said in post #220:

He works within me both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

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Amen.

But while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

justbyfaith said in post #220:

As New Covenant believers, the law is written on our hearts and in our minds . . .

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Not the Old Covenant law (Romans 7:6).

For example, Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, do not have to keep the sabbath of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For even the letter of the Ten Commandments, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13), was part of the abolished Old Covenant Mosaic law's ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:6-7, Exodus 31:15b), which has been replaced by the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) ministration of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6-18), in which all Christians are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and keep the spirit (Romans 7:6) of all of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments by loving others (Romans 13:8-10).

Saying that Christians have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath is just as mistaken as saying that Christians have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision (Acts 15:1-11). If Christians keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath thinking that they have to, because it is part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, then they are as fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) as Christians who keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision thinking that they have to because it is part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:2). They have become debtors to perform the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:3). They have placed themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

So no Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should ever desire to go back into bondage under the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8). Christians need to keep the sabbath only in spirit, not in the letter (Romans 7:6). Christians must never judge other Christians for not keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath (Colossians 2:16), which letter was abolished on the New Covenant Cross of Jesus Christ, along with all of the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Colossians 2:14-17, Ephesians 2:15-16, Romans 7:6, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

For its letter was merely a shadow. Now it all comes down to Jesus Christ Himself (Colossians 2:17). Jesus' New Covenant sabbath rest (Matthew 11:28-30), which all Christians enter by faith (Hebrews 4:3-4), exceeds in righteousness (cf. Matthew 5:20) the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath. For under the New Covenant sabbath, Christians must cease from their own works, as in those works done apart from abiding in Jesus (John 15:4-5), every day of the week (Hebrews 4:3,10, Luke 9:23). And they can esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5).

Also, Christians should be worshipping God every day of the week (Hebrews 13:15, cf. Psalms 145:2). And they should be meeting together every day of the week (Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 10:25), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum. The early Church started assembling together on the Lord's day (commonly called Sunday) instead of on the sabbath (commonly called Saturday) because the Lord's day, the first day of the week, was the day on which Jesus Christ physically resurrected (Mark 16:9) from the dead: "no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of the apostle John. Compare John's reference to "the Lord's day" in Revelation 1:10).

But it is not a requirement for Christians to assemble together only on the Lord's day, or to esteem the Lord's day above every other day of the week. It is also okay for Christians to choose to assemble together on the sabbath, because they esteem the sabbath above every other day of the week. It is also okay for Christians to esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5). Christians are never to judge each other over this matter, but are simply to do what they believe that Jesus Christ wants them as individuals to do (Romans 14:4-13). So the point is not for Christians to esteem days, but to focus on the person of Jesus Himself (Colossians 2:16-17).

Also, how do those who think that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant sabbath keep the letter of the sabbath of Leviticus 25?

justbyfaith said in post #220:

And also, for the unbeliever, the law defines sin and calls them a sinner . . .

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Not the abolished old law. For someone is not a sinner if he eats pork, for example.

It is now only the New Covenant/New Testament law of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:2, John 14:15, Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 8:6-13, Matthew 26:28) which defines sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).

justbyfaith said in post #220:

All things have not been fulfilled.

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Matthew 5:18 is explained by Luke 24:44.

That is, Matthew 5:17-18 means that Jesus Christ came the first time not to abolish the prophecies in the Mosaic law and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming, but to fulfill all those prophecies (Luke 24:44-48; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53). Matthew 5:17-18 cannot mean that Jesus came not to abolish the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for He did come to do that, on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19). Also, Matthew 5:17-18 cannot mean that Jesus came to fulfill the letter of all of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments, for He could not possibly have done that. For example, some of those commandments applied only to women after childbirth (Leviticus 12:4-8), or to wives suspected of adultery by their husbands (Numbers 5:19-31).

As the Christ (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44-46), the mediator of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-9), Jesus had the divine authority to contradict the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments and replace them with His own, even better, New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:38-44, Matthew 19:7-9, John 8:5-7), such as those He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 4:2). And as the Christ, Jesus had the divine authority to allow His disciples to break the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Matthew 12:1-8).

justbyfaith said in post #220:

This passage is clearly talking about the law of God given to Moses.

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Not Matthew 5:19-20. It refers to the New Covenant/New Testament commandments/sayings (Matthew 5:19, Matthew 7:24-29) which Jesus, as the Christ (Matthew 5:17b, Luke 24:44-46), was just about to give in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29).

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justbyfaith said in post #221:

. . . Ephesians 2:9 does not make a distinction; it does not say that a man is not saved by works only initially, it says he is not saved by works period.

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Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

justbyfaith said in post #221:

Also James 2:24 is speaking of justification, which has as its definition being declared righteous. So then, we are declared righteous by man when we do good works . . .

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No, the issue in James 2:14-24 is how Christians are to be saved from hell (James 2:14b), how they are to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved from hell, how they are to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16). That is why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23). Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith without any works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).

justbyfaith said in post #221:

And the point that I was making was that Matthew 7:22-23 shows that someone can do many good works and yet not be saved; which indicates that they are not saved by works; but by faith alone in Jesus Christ...

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The point of Matthew 7:22-23 is not to contradict James 2:24, but to show that we must also have repentance from sin (Hebrews 10:26-29).

That is, Matthew 7:21 includes both doing good works and repenting from sins.

justbyfaith said in post #221:

The fruit that we bear is the evidence of a saving faith but not the cause of salvation.

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It's both, ultimately (Romans 2:6-8).

For Matthew 25:26,30 shows that even someone who was a servant of Jesus Christ can ultimately lose his salvation because of unrepentant laziness. One way that a Christian could desire to become lazy without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term), that he continues in it over time until his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12). Love for God means choosing to do what God says to do (1 John 5:3). So if one's love for God grows cold (Matthew 24:12), one will no longer choose to do what God says to do (John 14:24), meaning that one will become lazy in God's eyes (Matthew 25:26,30).

Someone who has a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ, making them one of God's elect, cannot lose their salvation (John 10:27-30). They have eternal life; and they shall never perish; and no one can snatch them out of God's hand.

Romans 2:6-8 does not teach that we are saved by works but rather it defines faith as being an attitude by which we are not contentious but soft-hearted and with a desire to seek after glory, honour, and immortality.

Matthew 7:22-23 shows that we are not saved by our works; although if we are saved our inclination is to do good works.

If the issue in James 2:14-25 is on how to be saved from hell and not how we are justified before man, then Ephesians 2:8-9 is a lie. For it says that salvation is not of works; and it does not there say that it is there talking only of initial salvation. That in James it is talking about justification before men is evident from Romans 4:1-2, which tells us that if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God (in other words, his only boast is before men; indicating that his justification is before men). Again, works are an evidence of a saving faith, but they do not save in and of themselves (Matthew 7:22-23).

You wrote:

Bible2+ said:

For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

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None of these scriptures actually say what you think they say. For while there is no assurance that every Christian will continue in real righteousness, there is an assurance that those Christians who have a living and saving faith will. In Ezekiel 36:25-27 we find that when God gives us a new heart and a new spirit, He will cause us to walk in His statutes and in his judgments. He works within us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). These things are the result of a living and saving faith. While we are saved by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. I picture a man according to your theology boasting in heaven that "I was ultimately saved because I gave a huge contribution to such and such charity." No; ultimately a man is saved by grace through faith; because he has been elected by God: through faith alone in the finished work of Christ on the Cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). To add works to this is to pervert the gospel and find yourself accursed (Galatians 1:6-9).

It is clear from certain scriptures (Romans 4:5 and context, Titus 3:4-7, Ephesians 2:8-9, and Romans 11:5-6) that salvation, and not only initial salvation, is by the grace of God, and not of works.

In Matthew 7:21 it does show that obedience to the will of the Father is necessary for salvation; but this is different from works. Obedience is something that results out of being filled with the Holy Spirit because of a living faith in Jesus Christ; works have to do with attempting to earn salvation so that God will owe it to you to let you into heaven (Romans 4:4). And God will not owe salvation to anyone; He offers it as a free gift. Obedience to the Father's will stems out of a living faith in Jesus Christ and is the only true evidence of a living and saving faith; but it is clear from scripture that works do not save anyone.

If anyone is truly saved initially they will also be saved ultimately (John 10:27-30). I emphasize the word "truly". Because if anyone is truly saved, it will result in their walking in the statutes and judgments of the LORD (Ezekiel 36:25-27); God will cause them to do so.

While they are not, either initially or ultimately, saved by works; since when the Bible says that salvation is not of works, it does not make a distinction between initial and ultimate salvation; and it would do so very clearly if that were the message it was trying to convey.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works, otherwise grace is no more grace. And if by works, then is it no more of grace, otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:5-6.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Titus 3:5.

A question arises as to the nature of salvation. When a man is saved, what is he saved from? Is he saved only from his sins, as Matthew 1:21 so plainly declares? Or in justification, is he not also saved from the penalty of sin, so that his destination is no longer hell (Psalms 86:13)?

If in being saved (initially) it means that he is saved from hell, it means that he is not going there. Therefore ultimate salvation is secure for the one who has a living and saving faith (again, John 10:27-30). He has eternal life, and he shall never perish; and no one is able to snatch him out of God's hand. Now I define a living and saving faith as a faith that is tenacious, enduring unto the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14) and which is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10); I am not speaking of a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm faith (Revelation 3:16) which is based on emotional experience (Luke 8:13) or which is a mere mental assent to the doctrines of the faith (John 5:39-40); while I do not deny that mental assent to faithful doctrine is essential.

John 5:24 tells us that eternal/everlasting life begins the moment you believe with a living and saving faith. The fact that it is eternal/everlasting tells me something; that nothing can ever bring it to an end. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

We are saved by grace through faith from beginning to end, and all the way through (Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3).

For we received Christ by faith, and not by the works of the law (Galatians 2:16).

Romans 1:17, For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith.

Colossians 2:6, As ye therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Galatians 3:1-3, O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
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Galatians 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The works of the law being to live by any moral standard that you set up in your conscience as being your guiding light; while the moral standard of the law of God as it was given to Moses is what all men shall be judged by on that day, as it is brought home to the heart by Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain, and the words of the apostles concerning moral virtue as given in the epistles.

Therefore since we have begun in the Spirit as the result of the hearing of faith, let us continue by faith, and let us not be deceived into thinking that we can be saved by our works. Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches unequivocably that works do not and cannot save; but that we are saved (initially and ultimately) by grace through faith, having been elected of God unto salvation if we are of the elect.

Bible2+ said:

Not the abolished old law. For someone is not a sinner if he eats pork, for example.

It is now only the New Covenant/New Testament law of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:2, John 14:15, Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 8:6-13, Matthew 26:28) which defines sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).

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Paul and John were not referring to "the law of Christ" when they wrote Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4. Which you will understand if you take your doctrine from reading your Bible straight through. For example, Romans 3:20 cannot be talking about "the law of Christ" because "the law of Christ" has not ever yet been mentioned at that point. It is clearly referring to the law of God as it was given to Moses. And in 1 John 3:4 John is also clearly speaking of the law of God as it was given to Moses; because he is repeating what Paul said in Romans 3:20 of how the law defines sin; and he would naturally be talking about the same law.

justbyfaith said in post #220:

As New Covenant believers, the law is written on our hearts and in our minds . . .

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Bible2+ responded: Not the Old Covenant law (Romans 7:6).

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Yes, the Old Covenant law (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16). While the Old Testament sacrifices are fulfilled in Jesus being crucified.
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For my understanding on what these things are, go to the following link:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...paint-principle-the-complete-version.8043488/

justbyfaith said in post #224:

Someone who has a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ, making them one of God's elect, cannot lose their salvation (John 10:27-30).

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Note that true Christians can ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Regarding John 10:27-30, it means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

OSAS negates free will.

justbyfaith said in post #224:

Romans 2:6-8 does not teach that we are saved by works but rather it defines faith as being an attitude by which we are not contentious but soft-hearted and with a desire to seek after glory, honour, and immortality.

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By doing good works (James 2:24).

justbyfaith said in post #224:

Matthew 7:22-23 shows that we are not saved by our works . . .

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Only if we also have unrepentant sin (2 Peter 2:20-22).

justbyfaith said in post #224:

. . . although if we are saved our inclination is to do good works.

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Not necessarily (Matthew 25:26,30).

justbyfaith said in post #224:

If the issue in James 2:14-25 is on how to be saved from hell and not how we are justified before man, then Ephesians 2:8-9 is a lie.

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No, for the latter refers to initial salvation.

justbyfaith said in post #224:

For while there is no assurance that every Christian will continue in real righteousness, there is an assurance that those Christians who have a living and saving faith will.

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But there is no assurance that every Christian who starts out with a living and saving faith will continue to have one to the end (Hebrews 6:4-8).

justbyfaith said in post #224:

In Ezekiel 36:25-27 we find that when God gives us a new heart and a new spirit, He will cause us to walk in His statutes and in his judgments.

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Not in the sense of taking away our free will.

For in Ezekiel 36:27 the original Hebrew word (H6213) translated as "cause" can be translated as "grant" (Job 10:12), in the sense that if Christians choose to walk in God's Holy Spirit, He will grant them the ability not to fulfill the lust of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). But if Christians choose instead to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to commit sin without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Romans 8:13).

justbyfaith said in post #224:

He works within us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

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But not to take away our free will.

For 2 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12b, Titus 3:8, and Romans 2:6-8 show that Christians themselves must actually labor, together with God. Ultimate salvation is synergistic, because Christians can end up losing their salvation if they wrongly employ their free will to stop their laboring, to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

justbyfaith said in post #224:

I picture a man according to your theology boasting in heaven that "I was ultimately saved because I gave a huge contribution to such and such charity."

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No, for it is impossible for people to even believe, or to continue to believe, all of the right things, apart from God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, Hebrews 12:2), and some measure of His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Also, it is impossible for people to perform, or to continue to perform, all of the right actions as Christians, apart from God making it possible for Christians to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). And it is impossible for people to repent, if a sin is committed, apart from God making it possible to repent (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Romans 8:13). So even if Christians continue to believe, act, and repent as they ought to, they must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 1:29,31). But when Jesus Christ judges the Church at His future, Second Coming, He will give obedient Christians some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify Christians (Romans 8:30).

justbyfaith said in post #224:

To add works to this is to pervert the gospel and find yourself accursed (Galatians 1:6-9).

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Galatians addresses the problem of Christians mistakenly trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 2:11-21).

justbyfaith said in post #224:

If in being saved (initially) it means that he is saved from hell, it means that he is not going there.

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What Christians are saved from, whether initially or ultimately, is indeed eternal suffering in hell (Matthew 25:41,46). Initial salvation does save Christians from hell, initially. For an initially-saved Christian will end up in hell ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will subsequent to his initial salvation in such a way that he ultimately loses his salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

justbyfaith said in post #224:

John 5:24 tells us that eternal/everlasting life begins the moment you believe with a living and saving faith.

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John 5:24 refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25). John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All Christians will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

justbyfaith said in post #224:

The fact that it is eternal/everlasting tells me something; that nothing can ever bring it to an end.

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Note that possessing something eternal in itself does not require that someone will eternally keep possession of it. For example, imagine that one of the eternal precious stones of the heavenly city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:19) happened to be given to someone living now on the earth, and he kept it in his pocket. But after a few years, he got complacent about it, and sold it to a jeweler for a tremendous load of cash (cf. Hebrews 12:16-17). Does this mean that it was not eternal?

justbyfaith said in post #224:

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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Romans 8:1 ¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In the original Greek Textus Receptus, and in the KJV, the latter half of this verse states the condition for the first half. If the latter half is not done, then the first half does not apply, as other verses also make clear (Romans 8:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Hebrews 10:26-29).

justbyfaith said in post #225:

We are saved by grace through faith from beginning to end, and all the way through (Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3).

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Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

This means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, especially its physical circumcision (Galatians 6:12-13), are works of the flesh, as opposed to spiritual works of faith (Philippians 3:2-14; 1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8). For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12). Also, compare what Romans 7:5-6 says.

Galatians 3:2-3 means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law cannot make Christians perfect. Galatians 3:2-3 is not contradicting that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b).

justbyfaith said in post #225:

. . . the moral standard of the law of God as it was given to Moses is what all men shall be judged by on that day . . .

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No, for people will not be judged by a law which has been disannulled (Hebrews 7:18).

For example, people will not be judged for not tithing.

For tithing is not a New Covenant/New Testament commandment, but was a part of the Old Covenant, the letter of which Jesus Christ abolished on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6). Christians thinking that they have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant tithe is just as mistaken as Christians thinking that they have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant circumcision (Acts 15:1-11). If Christians keep the letter of the Old Covenant tithe thinking that they have to, then they are as fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) as Christians who keep the letter of the Old Covenant circumcision thinking that they have to (Galatians 5:2). They have become debtors to perform the letter of the entire Old Covenant law (Galatians 5:3). They have placed themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26). It is sad that some pastors even go out of their way to lay the specific, Old Covenant curse of Malachi 3:8-9 on their congregations.

Jesus Christ taught that Christians have to obey His New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 15:10), such as those He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). Jesus' New Covenant commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:20-48). For Jesus' New Covenant requirement is that Christians do much more than merely tithe. They must forsake everything that they have (Luke 14:33).

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justbyfaith said in post #226:

Paul and John were not referring to "the law of Christ" when they wrote Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4.

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The latter verse can be. And even the former verse does not mean that someone is a sinner if he does not get circumcised, for example (Galatians 5:2).

justbyfaith said in post #226:

John is also clearly speaking of the law of God as it was given to Moses; because he is repeating what Paul said in Romans 3:20 of how the law defines sin; and he would naturally be talking about the same law.

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No, for the New Covenant/New Testament law defines sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).

justbyfaith said in post #226:

[Re: What is written on our hearts]

. . . the Old Covenant law (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16).

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No, Jeremiah 31:33 prophesied of the (at that time) still-future New Covenant/New Testament law (Jeremiah 31:31-33), which is "not according to" the old law (Jeremiah 31:32).

For example, Matthew 19:7-9.

That is, the now-abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6) permitted a divorced woman to marry someone else (Deuteronomy 24:2). But if her second marriage ended, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade her to remarry her first husband (Deuteronomy 24:4). The New Covenant rules turn this on its head. For now a woman divorced from a valid husband cannot marry anyone else (Mark 10:12, Luke 16:18b), but she can remarry her valid husband (1 Corinthians 7:11).

John 5:24 proclaims clearly that if I hear the words of Christ and believe on Him who sent Him, I have everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but have passed from death unto life.

Now this means that my life is everlasting, which means that it will last for ever; I shall not come into condemnation: that means that in very absolute terms I am not condemned and will not be condemned (which means that my passport to heaven is secure); and I have passed from death unto life: that means that my everlasting life began the moment I believed; and furthermore, I do not have to wait for anything called ultimate salvation: initial salvation is ultimate salvation according to this passage.

My life is something that is intrinsically connected to me, it is something that is in me. It is not an object, such as a gem, that I can lose over being careless.

God gives us the Holy Spirit as an earnest deposited guaranteeing that which is to come. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and because we are sealed, our faith is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and will endure unto the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22). The Holy Spirit within us is the Person of God who acts as Lord of our lives and is the motivating factor of agape love within us; and not because we have lost our free will, but because we have surrendered our will freely, having fallen in love with the One who gave His life so freely for us.

I know that you will disagree, and that with your disagreement will come all sorts of Bible references to support your view; however I believe that you cannot see any of those Bible verses in the proper light because your very premise is off. For you believe that salvation is by works.

While the Bible teaches that we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ alone; and what He did for us on the Cross in becoming the propitiation for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 14:6, Romans 3:25).

justbyfaith said in post #229:

John 5:24 proclaims clearly that if I hear the words of Christ and believe on Him who sent Him, I have everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but have passed from death unto life.

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With conditions, ultimately, referred to elsewhere (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

justbyfaith said in post #229:

Now this means that my life is everlasting, which means that it will last for ever . . .

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If you keep the faith (Hebrews 6:4-8).

justbyfaith said in post #229:

I shall not come into condemnation . . .

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If you continue to obey (Hebrews 5:9).

justbyfaith said in post #229:

God gives us the Holy Spirit as an earnest deposited guaranteeing that which is to come.

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Ephesians 1:13-14, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

justbyfaith said in post #229:

For you believe that salvation is by works.

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Ultimately (Matthew 7:21).

Hebrews 6:4-8 is ultimately interpreted by its context in Hebrews 6:9-20, which tells me that Christ is an anchor for my soul; and that as long as I rely upon that anchor, the promises of God are certain. Such as the promise that I have everlasting life, and I shall never perish, neither can anyone pluck me out of the hand of the Lord God (John 10:27-30). And the promise that I have everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but have passed from death unto life (John 5:24). All of the promises of God in Christ are YES and AMEN (2 Corinthians 1:20 (kjv), 2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33).

Bible2+ said:

Ultimately (Matthew 7:21).

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I know enough of my Bible to say that that is false teaching; while I don't have an answer for the scripture that you have given in support of your view.

Except for, where in the Bible does it say that it is specifically the will of the Father that we do good works? I can see where it is said that the will of the Father is that we should behold the Son and believe in Him; and that Jesus should lose nothing of that which the Father gave Him (John 6:39-40), that we ought to be sanctified, that is, to abstain from fornication (1 Thessalonians 4:2-8), and that we ought to give thanks in every thing (1 Thessalonians 5:18); but I do not find good works being mentioned anywhere in scripture as being specifically defined as the will of the Father; or the will of the Father specifically defined as good works anywhere in scripture.

(You would have to have a specific scripture stating this in order to make your case properly. For in Ephesians 2:8-9, it declares that salvation is not of works. And it does not here exclude ultimate salvation as being the salvation spoken of.

For since upon hearing the words of Christ and believing on Him who sent Him, among other things I have passed from death to life, and also have everlasting life; I conclude that initial salvation is ultimate salvation, since the quality of life that I have passed into is everlasting and therefore will last for ever. And since this begins the moment I believe, I conclude that initial salvation is ultimate salvation.)

Do we do good works as the result of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives? You betcha (Titus 3:14). But it says nowhere that our doing good works is the will of the Father, as other things in the Bible are mentioned as being the will of the Father (again, John 6:39-40, 1 Thessalonians 4:2-8, 1 Thessalonians 5:18).

The Holy Spirit brought to my remembrance 1 Peter 2:15, which gives us the command that it is the will of God that with well-doing we put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.

If well-doing can be defined as works, then I can see your point that you make from Matthew 7:21.

However as I was thinking about it, the Holy Spirit brought to my mind the scripture that says that if we don't take things in their proper context, we will go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (Isaiah 28:13).

So I suddenly thought to look at the context of Matthew 7:21. Immediately previous to the verse is the teaching on how, by their fruits you shall know them. Therefore doing the will of the Father has to do with bearing good fruit.

And the fruit of the Spirit is love (Galatians 5:22-23). As believers in Christ, we don't love in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18).

However it comes back to the analogy of how a healthy plant bears fruit. It must be planted firmly in good soil, and be able to draw up nourishment from the ground. The health of the plant is dependent on this only, and is in no way dependent upon the fruit that it bears. If we define salvation as the health of the plant, then the good fruit unto good works (Titus 3:14) in no way saves the plant and in no way brings health to it. We bear the fruit of the Spirit unto good works because we are healthy plants, rooted and grounded in love through faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore if we don't do the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21) it is because we are not rooted and grounded in love through faith in Jesus.

Also I was thinking that doing the will of the Father, in Matthew 7:21, is rooted in obedience to God; and that a man can do many good works and still be in disobedience to God. If a man does a good work that he was not led of the Holy Spirit to do, it is a dead work (Hebrews 6:1-2). And he will not be saved in the doing of it. (If a man does many good works thinking that he will ultimately be saved because of them, but loses sight of the fact that Jesus died for him, he may very well perish (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)). For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God (Romans 8:14).

Bible2+ said:

But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will.

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Philippians 1:6.

justbyfaith said in post #231:

Hebrews 6:4-8 is ultimately interpreted by its context in Hebrews 6:9-20, which tells me that Christ is an anchor for my soul; and that as long as I rely upon that anchor, the promises of God are certain.

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Regarding "as long as I rely upon that anchor", that's the whole point of Hebrews 6:4-8: that a true Christian can at some point wrongly employ his free will to not continue to rely upon Christ, to the ultimate loss of his salvation.

That is, Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that true Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life, if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

justbyfaith said in post #231:

. . . I have everlasting life, and I shall never perish, neither can anyone pluck me out of the hand of the Lord God (John 10:27-30).

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But you can.

justbyfaith said in post #231:

. . . I have everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but have passed from death unto life (John 5:24).

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With conditions given elsewhere (e.g. Luke 13:3).

justbyfaith said in post #231:

All of the promises of God in Christ are YES and AMEN (2 Corinthians 1:20 (kjv), 2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33).

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So long as we keep on believing in Him (Hebrews 3:14).

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justbyfaith said in post #232:

[Re: Matthew 7:21]

. . . where in the Bible does it say that it is specifically the will of the Father that we do good works?

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E.g. Ephesians 2:10.

justbyfaith said in post #232:

I can see where it is said that the will of the Father is that we should behold the Son and believe in Him; and that Jesus should lose nothing of that which the Father gave Him (John 6:39-40),

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Regarding John 6:39-40, note that resurrection in itself does not assure a resurrection to eternal life. For people can be resurrected to damnation (John 5:29). This applies even to elect people. For even though they all get initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b, John 6:37a), and Jesus Christ will not physically lose any of them, but will physically resurrect all of them (John 6:39) at His future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23), some of them will be resurrected to damnation (John 5:29), to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2), because of unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8). Also, at the subsequent resurrection, at the Great White Throne Judgment, those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be physically resurrected only to be judged and cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:11-15).

justbyfaith said in post #232:

. . . in Ephesians 2:8-9, it declares that salvation is not of works.

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Not initially. But other verses show that it is of works ultimately (e.g. Romans 2:6-8).

justbyfaith said in post #232:

I conclude that initial salvation is ultimate salvation . . .

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We are still hoping for ultimate salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30).

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justbyfaith said in post #233:

. . . if we don't do the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21) it is because we are not rooted and grounded in love through faith in Jesus.

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Not necessarily, because of free will.

That is, John 15:2a refers to true Christians, who are truly branches in the vine of Jesus Christ, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from Him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

True Christians can also be ultimately cut off from Jesus Christ, cast away, and burned; they can ultimately lose their salvation, for not continuing to abide in Jesus (John 15:6), in the sense of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

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justbyfaith said in post #234:

Philippians 1:6.

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Philippians 1:6 does mean that God will complete the work which He has begun in Christians. But other passages show that He will do this only if they continue to cooperate with Him, work along with Him (1 Corinthians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12, Philippians 3:12-14), and do not wrongly employ their free will to, for example, become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).