Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

Dave L · Jul 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
You are not even making sense here. Even per the view that the thousand years are meaning in this age, the end doesn't come at the finishing of the thousand years. When the thousand years are finished the text indicates satan is loosed for a little season.
The text doesn't indicate the length of that little season though. It could be meaning months, years, decades, centuries----who knows? How could anyone possibly know the length of the little season and when it ends? But that doesn't matter anyway as far as Premil is concerned. That day and hour that knoweth no man, that is meaning the end of this age, and not the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

He can't put down all rule and all authority and power, before the time of the white throne judgment. Once the white throne judgment is over with and in the past, Jesus no longer has a reason to be reigning in the sense He was. He will still be reigning though, just not in a sense that involves judgment. etc. The white throne judgment obviously involves judgment. That obviously involves having all rule and all authority and power. The end, therefore, per 1 Corinthians 15:24 can't precede the white throne judgment.

If I weren't currently Premil I could likely accept your interpretation here. It at least seems reasonable, unlike your conclusions I initially addressed in this post.

You still end up knowing the time of the end, which nobody except the Father knows. The 1000 years end when the world ends. Why? Because Jesus must reign until he destroys the last enemy - death. This he does in the resurrection on the last day. So this places Gog and Magog and the great battle taking place on the last day.

Also who does Satan rally if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom? Your only option is the glorified saints of the millennium.

Dave L · Jul 18, 2018

seventysevens said:
That nonsense is expected of you and those that seek to avoid common sense - amils go to the extreme ends of nonsense showing no interest in logical sensibility , while you choose to symbolize everything , in a failed attempt to rationalize going to the xtreme to avoid going to the rational sensibility in recognizing where it is appropriate and when it is nonsensical

If you force a literal interpretation on the 1000 years, be consistent and force it on all of the symbols.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 18, 2018

Dave L said:
So this places Gog and Magog and the great battle taking place on the last day.
Also who does Satan rally if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom? Your only option is the glorified saints of the millennium.

So let's discuss Gog-Magog...........and thus get off this merry go round thread......

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/armegeddon-gog-magog-same-event.7413416/#post-53364747
Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event? [poll thread]

What are others views of the "armegeddon/gog-magog in Revelation.

I and some others are of the view they are 1 and the same event, since the Bible only mentiones 1 Great Day of the Lord God Almighty.

I would like to expound on these 2 verses as this thread progresses. Thank you

Revelation 16:16
And he together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn [Revelation 20:8?]

Revelation 20:8
And he shall be coming out to deceive the Nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog, together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of which the Number as the Sand of the Sea. [Reve 16:16]

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...re-not-the-same-events.7953606/#post-69795086
Megiddo and Gog/Magog are NOT the same events

A lot of people think they are the same but they are not according to Revelation 20:7-8

7.) When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8.) and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle.

Weird.

Read Revleation 19...the Anti Christ is defeated...Satan is bound for the 1000 years...only for ANOTHER battle to occur afterwards.

Dave L · Jul 18, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
So let's discuss Gog-Magog...........and thus get off this merry go round thread......

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/armegeddon-gog-magog-same-event.7413416/#post-53364747
Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event? [poll thread]

What are others views of the "armegeddon/gog-magog in Revelation.

I and some others are of the view they are 1 and the same event, since the Bible only mentiones 1 Great Day of the Lord God Almighty.

I would like to expound on these 2 verses as this thread progresses. Thank you

Revelation 16:16
And he together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn

Revelation 20:8
And he shall be coming out to deceive the Nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog, together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of which the Number as the Sand of the Sea. [Reve 16:14]

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...re-not-the-same-events.7953606/#post-69795086
Megiddo and Gog/Magog are NOT the same events

A lot of people think they are the same but they are not according to Revelation 20:7-8

7.) When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8.) and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle.

Weird.

Read Revleation 19...the Anti Christ is defeated...Satan is bound for the 1000 years...only for ANOTHER battle to occur afterwards.

Thanks for the interesting post. I believe Gog and Magog are ancient symbols for the world leading up to the last days (possibly our day). The 1000 years finished = (Satan deceives the nations). And Armageddon is the symbol for the end of the world. Equalling what Peter says about the elements melting with a fervent heat and the universe passing away with a great noise. Followed by the new heavens and earth.

DavidPT · Jul 18, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
I tend to agree.
I thought the Amill doctrine taught they are already in the 1000 yr period.
Now that I know that is not the case, I will have to reassess whether to go back to preterism, which I have been since coming the Christ........

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/amillennialism-safe-house.8071393/
Amill safe house

Even if you never change your mind eventually, this post here at least shows you are willing to use some good common sense when trying to determine what something might be meaning. Others throw common sense out the window altogether if that common sense might support Premil rather than their position. After all, if the thousand years are meaning the literal amount specified in 2 Peter 3, then so must the same be true of the thousand years in Revelation 20. That of course would mean Amil is not a valid doctrine since Amil can't work if the thousand years are literally the amount specified.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Take note how Amils, and even some Premils, are not being consistent here when interpreting this.

that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

A thousand years---it is claimed by some to mean an undetermined amount of years. Therefore it could mean 2000 years, 3000 years, so on and so on. The text also mentions a day. Why are they not doing the same with a day as well? Such as---a day can also mean a undetermined amount of days. Therefore it could mean 2 days, 3 days, so on and so on.

To interpret this verse in a consistent manner then, we might end up with something like such---that two days is with the Lord as two thousand years, and two thousand years as two days. The text doesn't say that though. Ironically though, it would still add up to a literal amount of years being specified. If one day is as thousand years, 2 days would be as 2 thousand years, obviously. But my point was, that those who make the thousand years mean more than a thousand years are not doing the same with a day in that verse.

seventysevens · Jul 18, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Like on a white horse?

Do we still battle with horses and chariots today?

maybe a white mustang cobra jet with all the 007 additions

Dave L · Jul 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
Even if you never change your mind eventually, this post here at least shows you are willing to use some good common sense when trying to determine what something might be meaning. Others throw common sense out the window altogether if that common sense might support Premil rather than their position. After all, if the thousand years are meaning the literal amount specified in 2 Peter 3, then so must the same be true of the thousand years in Revelation 20. That of course would mean Amil is not a valid doctrine since Amil can't work if the thousand years are literally the amount specified.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Take note how Amils, and even some Premils, are not being consistent here when interpreting this.

that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

A thousand years---it is claimed by some to mean an undetermined amount of years. Therefore it could mean 2000 years, 3000 years, so on and so on. The text also mentions a day. Why are they not doing the same with a day as well? Such as---a day can also mean a undetermined amount of days. Therefore it could mean 2 days, 3 days, so on and so on.

To interpret this verse in a consistent manner then, we might end up with something like such---that two days is with the Lord as two thousand years and counting, and two thousand years and counting as two days. The text doesn't say that though.

Peter isn't developing a doctrine here. He's just telling those who think Christ is overdue not to get nervous. Time is not an issue with God.

If Rev 20 is symbolic, mentioning the angel, the serpent (which John says is Satan), and the chain, why would the 1000 years be literal? Whenever they end what happens? Satan once again deceives. If they were literal years, they themselves could not bind Satan. And to prove they are not literal years, everything comes together on the last day. Gog and Magog, Armageddon, the resurrection and the rapture. And the new heavens and earth.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 18, 2018

Dave L said:
Thanks for the interesting post. ...And Armageddon is the symbol for the end of the world. Equalling what Peter says about the elements melting with a fervent heat and the universe passing away with a great noise. Followed by the new heavens and earth.

Good post.
I believe that if one was to look at Revelation from the perspective of the earthly OC vs the spiritual NC, it would perhaps be more clear [at least to the Jews of today perhaps].

Note Galatians 4:

Galatians 4:
3
Thus also when we were babes under the elements/stoiceia <4747> of the world were in servitude<1402> ,
24
which things are symbolic.
For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—
25
The yet Hagar, Mount Sinai is in the Arabia, is together-elemental/su-stoicei <4960> (5719) yet to the now Jerusalem being in servitude<1402> with the offsprings of Her.

2 Peter 3:12
Toward seeming/expecting and hastening the Parousia of the day of God,
thru which heavens being fired/purou-menoi <4448> (5746) shall be being dissolved and elements/stoiceia <4747> burning/kausoumena <2741> (5746) being melted.

This appears to be the "elements", those used in the OC Temple and Sanctuary:

Revelation 18:11
And the merchants of the land are lamenting and are mourning over her, because no one is not still buying their merchandise/cargo
12 merchandise/cargoes of gold, and of silver, and of precious stone, and of pearl, and of fine linen, and of purple, and of silk, and of scarlet,
and every citron wood, and every ivory vessel, and every precious vessel out of wood, and of brass, and of iron, and of marble,
13 and cinnamon, and ginger, and incenses, and attar, and frankincense, and wine, and olive-oil, and fine-flour, and grain,
and cattle/beasts, and sheep, and of horses, and of chariots, and of bodies and souls of men

seventysevens · Jul 18, 2018

Dave L said:
You still end up knowing the time of the end, which nobody except the Father knows.
The 1000 years end when the world ends.

The 1000 years Begins when Jesus returns

Dave L said:
Also who does Satan rally if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom? Your only option is the glorified saints of the millennium.

The flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom as they are ruled over by the kingdom , Jesus is the King and the saints are the cabinet of the king

You show no understanding at all , Scripture has never spoke of anyone cannot know the end of the world , Jesus said no one knows the day or the hour of HIS Glorious return to earth , NOTHING about the world ending -
it is the end of an AGE , notice that the

New KJV Matt 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Eph 3
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen

Dave L · Jul 18, 2018

seventysevens said:
The 1000 years Begins when Jesus returns

The flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom as they are ruled over by the kingdom , Jesus is the King and the saints are the cabinet of the king

You show no understanding at all , Scripture has never spoke of anyone cannot know the end of the world , Jesus said no one knows the day or the hour of HIS Glorious return to earth , NOTHING about the world ending -
it is the end of an AGE , notice that the

New KJV Matt 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Eph 3
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)

Red Sky at Morning · Jul 18, 2018

Dave L said:
I believe every main eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.

But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.

The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.

The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.

Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.

But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.

Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

Was the Garden of Eden a spiritual or a physical state? Let's start from there...

As it was in the beginning?

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 18, 2018

Dave L said:
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)

Did you see this post?

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-their-problems.8071615/page-50#post-72958352

Dave L · Jul 18, 2018

Red Sky at Morning said:
Was the Garden of Eden a spiritual or a physical state? Let's start from there...

As it was in the beginning?

It involved both.

DavidPT · Jul 18, 2018

Dave L said:
You still end up knowing the time of the end, which nobody except the Father knows. The 1000 years end when the world ends. Why? Because Jesus must reign until he destroys the last enemy - death. This he does in the resurrection on the last day. So this places Gog and Magog and the great battle taking place on the last day.

Also who does Satan rally if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom? Your only option is the glorified saints of the millennium.

The following must not be in your Bible then.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

One can't still be in the time of the thousand years once it has expired. Why should anyone take some of your conclusions seriously when you are choosing to subtract things from the texts, as if those things are not even in the texts? It's 2018 right now. That obviously means, as an example, that the 1970s have expired. No one would claim, that if the end were to come in 2018, this really means the end came during the 1970s. That's basically the same logic you are using in regards to this thousand years.
Except it is not good logic, it is instead illogical.

Red Sky at Morning · Jul 18, 2018

Dave L said:
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)

Passages can be sequential whilst having "spaces" between the verses, rather like hills and valleys. I learned a lot about prophecy from this picture:

Caspar_David_Friedrich_-_Wanderer_above_the_sea_of_fog.jpg

Isaiah 61

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;*

*Spot the 2000 year gap?

Red Sky at Morning · Jul 18, 2018

Dave L said:
It involved both.

OK - do you expect the "restoration of all things" to be different, or do you believe in "Christo-Platonism"?

https://www.epm.org/blog/2013/Jun/12/christoplatonism

seventysevens · Jul 18, 2018

Dave L said:
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)

When you understand that scripture does not contradict itself and scripture in MANY places speaks of Saints ruling with Jesus and death is not conquered until AFTER the 1000 years - IF you would understand that day in the Lord is as a thousand years then it fits PERFECTLY that the day of the Lord being 1000 thousand years is a day , the Kingdom comes and all that is ti be done in the 1000 years is done and at the end of that day of 1000 years the earth is burned up and a new earth is here - or it could simply mean that the atmosphere and the surface of the earth is burned at the time of world war at Jerusalem when Jesus returns to establish His kingdom on earth - either way , your notion just does not fit , so you force everything to be allegorical as per typical of the amil view where when scripture does not fit your preference just call it allegory or symbolize it - anything but what it really is

Dave L · Jul 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
The following must not be in your Bible then.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

One can't still be in the time of the thousand years once it has expired. Why should anyone take some of your conclusions seriously when you are choosing to subtract things from the texts, as if those things are not even in the texts? It's 2018 right now. That obviously means, as an example, that the 1970s have expired. No one would claim, that if the end were to come in 2018, this really means the end came during the 1970s. That's basically the same logic you are using in regards to this thousand years.
Except it is not good logic, it is instead illogical.

Keep in mind Rev 20 is a spiritual setting, not physical. The souls under the altar set the tone for understanding the rest.

Dave L · Jul 18, 2018

seventysevens said:
When you understand that scripture does not contradict itself and scripture in MANY places speaks of Saints ruling with Jesus and death is not conquered until AFTER the 1000 years - IF you would understand that a say in the Lord is as a thousand years then it fits PERFECTLY that the day of the Lord being 1000 thousand years is a day , the Kingdom comes and all that is ti be done in the 1000 years is done and at the end of that day of 1000 years the earth is burned up and a new earth is here - or it could simply mean that the atmosphere and the surface of the earth is burned at the time of world war at Jerusalem when Jesus returns to establish His kingdom on earth - either way , your notion just does not fit , so you force everything to be allegorical as per typical of the amil view where when scripture does not fit your preference just call it allegory or symbolize it - anything but what it really is

The 1000 years end on earth's last day, along with Gog and Magog and the wicked who attack the church.

seventysevens · Jul 18, 2018

Dave L said:
Keep in mind Rev 20 is a spiritual setting, not physical. The souls under the altar set the tone for understanding the rest.

WRONG WRONG WRONG

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 18, 2018

Red Sky at Morning said:
Was the Garden of Eden a spiritual or a physical state? Let's start from there...

As it was in the beginning?

Is the tree of life physical or spiritual in REVELATION?

Revelation 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of the life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” '

Revelation 22:
2
In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of the life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month.
The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
14
Blessed are those who do His commandments,[fn] that they may have the right to the tree of the life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

1 corinthians 2:14
and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them,
because spiritually they are discerned;

Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

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