Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Why don't you just say what it is that you are leading to.....
Why don't you just answer the questions that I asked about, then I will answer yours.......
I can play this merry go round all day long with you...... I will respond once you answer my questions.....
So what is your view of the hour and half hour?
And is the "rapture" showing in Revelation?..........

Revelation 8:1
When He opened the seventh seal,
and became a hush/silence/sigh<4602> in the Heaven for about half an hour.

Revelation 18:
19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by Her wealth!
For in one hour She is made desolate<2049>.'
 
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seventysevens

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Why don't you just answer the questions that I asked about, then I will answer yours.......
I can play this merry go round all day long with you...... I will respond once you answer my questions.....
Have you looked in an encyclopedia?
Have you done any research ? I know the Games people play , and manipulations - so until you are willing to be straight up and to the point of why you ask the questions - you have the answer , you can play the merry go round games by yourself ;)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Have you looked in an encyclopedia?
Have you done any research ? I know the Games people play , and manipulations - so until you are willing to be straight up and to the point of why you ask the questions - you have the answer , you can play the merry go round games by yourself ;)
Still no answer to my questions.....;)

LittleLambofJesus said:
So what is your view of the hour and half hour?
And is the "rapture" showing in Revelation?..........

Revelation 8:1
When He opened the seventh seal,
and became a hush/silence/sigh<4602> in the Heaven for about half an hour.
Revelation 18:19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by Her wealth!
For in one hour She is made desolate<2049>.'
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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I gave my answer - if you don't like it .....be forthcoming and stop playing games
Ah yes, here was your answer to the hour/half hour question.
Which I take it to mean, "let the reader discern". That sounds good to me.
For myself, I haven't really studied on that "half hour."..........

In regards to the half and hour of silence in heaven , it could well mean that John seen it has 30 minutes in human time , or it could mean something else , but either way it would not be a wise thing to impart a personal interpretation just because it fits a preference to how a person desires to have other scriptures mean

Is there scripture that says that it cannot be that ?

We are living in a time where people prefer to believe that whatever they find preferable is TRUTH without any need to verify the validity of it , where people will say that TRUTH is subjective , that there is no absolute truth where the Truth is True for all, but rather each person can have their own version of truth as they see fit to be truth , saying their truth is not the same as your truth and they can have truth , you can have truth and everyone can hold whatever they believe to be truth considered to be truth - that way everyone can have truth as long as they believe it is true - but this very notion invalidates Truth in it's very definition .. People fall away from sound doctrine regardless of the topic in favor of believing what they prefer to be true , doctrine not having to be required to be biblical doctrine ,
In short it is that; people prefer to believe what they prefer to be true without the use of validating with provable truths to support what IS true -
where people look for words to express what they prefer to be true , to be considered truth without having a universal truth that all must agree to to be true -

Example is where Peter says
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Peter says plainly that one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day- Peter is making a contextual statement but amil believers hate any reference to a specific 1000 year time period simply because to accept it as written will overwhelmingly defeat the whole idea of amil which is precisely why they are so diametrically opposed to it .

If Peter was referring to simply a 'long time' then why write it in a manner that could easily be misunderstood ?
Simple plain sense would be just write it as a long time -

When people want to say it is just a long time , and then say the John simply meant a long time when He said satan will be imprisoned for 1000 years - There is no correlation at all whatsoever that suggests that John just meant a long time as John was seeing what JESUS was showing him and Jesus told John to write down what John was seeing and hearing - so it was not just some off the cuff language to be 'interpreted' according to ones own preference

Consider when you write a letter to people , and you say you are going on vacation for one week and then they tell people you would be gone for seven years; if you had not told them to interpret your letter to mean 7 years ?

In regards to the half and hour of silence in heaven , it could well mean that John seen it has 30 minutes in human time , or it could mean something else , but either way it would not be a wise thing to impart a personal interpretation just because it fits a preference to how a person desires to have other scriptures mean
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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There is no time like the present time , get to work on that so you can then say you have studied on that ;)
I will create a thread on it when I have time and have studied on it......how's that work for ya?

Only used in 1 verse in the NT:

Revelation 8:1
When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half hour <2256>


Strong's Number G2256 matches the Greek ἡμιώριον (hēmiōrion),
which occurs 1 time in 1 verse
2256.
hemiorion hay-mee-o'-ree-on from the base of 2255 and 5610; a half-hour:--half an hour.
2255. hemisu hay'-mee-soo neuter of a derivative from an inseparable prefix akin to 260 (through the idea of partition involved in connection) and meaning semi-; (as noun) half:--half.
5610. hora ho'-rah apparently a primary word; an "hour" (literally or figuratively):--day, hour, instant, season, X short, (even-)tide, (high) time.

I spend a lot of time on my Revelation translation:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/revelation-chapter-3-the-last-3-churches.8072344/
Revelation chapter 3: The last 3 Churches
 
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jgr

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A certitude ….as final achievement...Like saying that the SAINTS will inherit the Kingdom
Daniel 7:18-21
18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
…..
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Whom Jesus said is ACTUALLY the prince of this world
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

The horn is the prince of this world?

Where does Scripture associate the two?

Or am I misunderstanding you?
 
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DavidPT

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1.)

2.) During this time that satan is bound, the first resurrection occurs. Those who partake in the 1st resurrection, reign with Christ as priests of God. Notice the verb tenses; John saw those who HAD been beheadED, who HAD not worshipED the beast, not receivED it mark, but LivED and reignED with Christ. In other words, John was seeing the souls of those HAD lived and reigned with Christ. Then notice the promise for anyone who does partake in the 1st resurrection: they will (future tense) be priests of God:
Revelation 20:4-6 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Anyone who has been born again has partaken of the 1st resurrection (dead to sin, made alive with Christ), and the 2nd death has no power.
Ephesians 4-5 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved
Already at the time of Peter, the body of Christ was a royal priesthood for God:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light




As to those verb tenses in relation to reigning with Christ a thousand years, they tend to tell me that they got over the beast in the past, and because they did, they then are rewarded with reigning with Christ a thousand years. And since these would initially be physically dead, that reigning with Christ only makes sense if reigning with Christ on the earth. The only way that is possible at that point, Christ eventually returns, thus the 2nd coming, which in turn leads to the first resurrection, where they then reign with Christ on the earth a thousand years. Otherwise that places their reigning with Him a thousand years in heaven instead, which makes no logical nor Scriptural sense.
 
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Riberra

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The horn is the prince of this world?

Where does Scripture associate the two?

Or am I misunderstanding you?
Satan is the prince of this World since Adam and Eve fall.

As for the little horn ---->Daniel 7 refers to the 42 months reign of the Beast of Revelation 13 ---->The Beast who shall ascend out of the Bottomless pit that they who dwell on the Earth shall wonder Revelation 17:8 [they] whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,
 
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jgr

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Satan is the prince of this World since Adam and Eve fall.

As for the little horn ---->Daniel 7 refers to the 42 months reign of the Beast of Revelation 13 ---->The Beast who shall ascend out of the Bottomless pit that the whole Earth shall wonder Revelation 17:8

The little horn of Daniel 7 most closely corresponds to the beast of Revelation 13, who is an agent of the dragon, Satan.

I'd agree that there is an indirect association of the horn to Satan.
 
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Riberra

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The little horn of Daniel 7 most closely corresponds to the beast of Revelation 13, who is an agent of the dragon, Satan.

I'd agree that there is an indirect association of the horn to Satan.
Rather a direct association ---Satan will give him his power and authority.
Revelation 13:4
4 and they worshipped the dragon, because he gave his authority unto the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? And who is able to war with him?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Satan is the prince of this World since Adam and Eve fall.
.
Jesus told His disciples the ruler of the world was coming in John 14:30

John 12:31
Now judging is of this world, now this the ruler/chief of the world, shall be being cast out outside
John 14:30
Not much longer I shall be speaking to ye, for is coming the ruler/chief of the world and in Me not he having nothing
John 16:11

about yet judging, because the ruler/chief of this world has been judged.

And who should show up after Jesus finished His discourse, but Judas

Luke 22:3
Then Satan entered Judas,
surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve.

John 18:

2 Now Judas also, who was betraying Him, knew the place; for Jesus had often met there with His disciples.
3 Judas then, having received the Roman cohort, and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth, and said to them, “Whom do you seek?”
 
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jgr

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Rather a direct association ---Satan will give him his power and authority.
Revelation 13:4
4 and they worshipped the dragon, because he gave his authority unto the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? And who is able to war with him?

Direct association would make the horn the dragon. But the horn is the beast, an agent of the dragon.
 
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Riberra

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Direct association would make the horn the dragon. But the horn is the beast, an agent of the dragon.
That is right that the little horn is not the Dragon/Satan ...but that is the Dragon/ Satan who give to the little horn Beast power and authority.
 
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Dave L

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I think there could be validity to the recapitulation view. I don't totally discount it. I don't know if it proves the thousand years can't be meaning post the 2nd coming though. IMO I presented ample evidence in recent posts proving the time meant for the thousand years have to be post the 2nd coming. If someone wants to go through those posts and show why I'm incorrect to conclude what I did, I'm all for that. If in my mind I think I'm arriving at the correct conclusions based on what the texts in question add up to, why should I think otherwise if no one is able to show me via what I submitted, why and how the conclusions I arrived at are incorrect?
The problem with turning the 1000 years into an exact measure of time, instead of seeing it as a symbol of a complete, predetermined measure of time, is that people know what only the Father knows. The time of the end. And the pre-tribbers say the end happens 1007 years from the rapture.

Here's how I view the symbols of Rev. 20:

The angel = Greek for messenger

the chain = the message (gospel) Satan is a liar and the gospel sent to all nations keeps him from deceiving them.

the 1000 years = A complete and perfect allotment of time. The New Covenant era until the last of the elect (names written in the book of life) come in from among the nations.

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the nations deceived and the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.
 
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Dave L

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The Return of Jesus will be the last day of this present World SYSTEM dominated by Satan since the fall of Adam and Eve.

Proved by the fact that Satan will not be able to deceive the Nations again during 1,000 years...

Revelation 20:1-2
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut [it], and sealed [it] over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
Keep in mind, scripture mentions only two worlds. This present evil world. And the world to come. A physical Millennium does not fit in this present evil world because Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. It doesn't fit in the world to come either. The kingdom is forever, not just 1000 years. And in the world to come everything is perfect without the sin and death the physical millenium has.

The truth is, the Kingdom arrived with Jesus in his first advent. It is spiritual, and centered in heaven where Jesus now sits on David's throne at the Father's right hand. And the resurrection on the last day is the restoration of Israel, those who accepted Christ, where they live forever in the New Heavens and earth.
 
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seventysevens

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The problem with turning the 1000 years into an exact measure of time, instead of seeing it as a symbol of a complete, predetermined measure of time, is that people know what only the Father knows. The time of the end. And the pre-tribbers say the end happens 1007 years from the rapture.

Here's how I view the symbols of Rev. 20:

The angel = Greek for messenger

the chain = the message (gospel) Satan is a liar and the gospel sent to all nations keeps him from deceiving them.

the 1000 years = A complete and perfect allotment of time. The New Covenant era until the last of the elect (names written in the book of life) come in from among the nations.

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the nations deceived and the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.


Well you can believe that if you want to , but what you choose to ignore is , it is not all symbols ,
Angels are warriors as well and just one angel can kill 180,000 people by himself , angels are far more than just messengers -they do have the power to open the abyss and let demons out and also the power to cast satan into the abyss empowered by Jesus command .

The spiritual realm IS the eternal realm , they are the same , and they do have physical characteristics and physical bodies , people that choose to believe that the eternal realm/spiritual is not physical just do not understand what the Holy Bible has taught ,
ALL scripture fits together , for point and purpose , humankind does not see or truly experience the eternal realm in the corruptible body , but when the body is changed into an incorruptible body , it then is a physical body that can experience the eternal physical realm ,
amil fails to understand this simple matter and is dependent on symbolizing everything - scripture tells us in several ways that satan is a roaming the earth deceiving people everyday - to this very day there has never been a day when satan cannot deceive people , and the only person that has the power to lock satan in prison is God , hence that when Jesus physically returns he then at that time casts as in grabs hold of satan and casts satan into prison -

your total dependency of allegorizing and symbolizing is where your ideas fail , When Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world , He is saying that when he returns He brings His Kingdom to this earth and then His Kingdom will be in this world, just as when Jesus said that you are not of this world but set apart from this world and sanctified and are in this world but not of this world.

satan will be imprisoned when Jesus returns to this world and that while Jesus reigns this world people will experience what it is like to live under a righteous King - then when satan is loosed people that have not the eternal glorified body and who can be deceived will be tempted by satan for that short time that he is loosed from prison - as the scripture clearly says he will go out to deceive who he can , just like when satan deceived 1/3 of the angels in heaven that did experience rule under a righteous King , then satan and those he he has deceived are cast into the lake of fire .

Peter was Jesus closest friend and Peter said that one day is as 1000 years and 1000 years is as one day - the notion that you can decide for yourself when the 1000 years begins and ends is in total disagreement with scripture , but then so is the amil doctrine , .....pretrib, mid trib, and post trib are all premil
 
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