Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

Riberra

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Looks like it to me. So what's the problem?

Dave L [as all the AMILL camp ] seem to erroneously believe that when Jesus return we jump directly to the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21 ...They act as if Revelation 20 does not exist.

They act as if they don't like the fact that Jesus will one day physically reign over the Nations during 1,000 years with the resurrected Saints [MARTYRS Revelation 20:4-6]....Then after the 1,000 years Jesus will deliver the Kingdom to His Father...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
What if the 5 months symbolized just the "half time"?
What if it's not ? :)

Scripture indicates that a 'half a time' is equal to half a year , but the scripture about locusts tormenting men happens for a period of time designated as 5 months........
Fair enough.

Does a half hour mean literally a half hour in Reve 8:1?

Revelation 8:1
When He opened the seventh seal,

and became a hush/silence/sigh<4602> in the Heaven for about half an hour.


Zepheniah 1:7
Be silent in the presence of 'Adonay YAHWEH;
For the day of YAHWEH is at hand,
For YAHWEH has prepared a sacrifice;
HE has invited HIS guests.

Zechariah 2:13
Be silent, all flesh, before YAHWEH,
for He is roused from
HIS holy habitation!”

Habakkuk 2:20
“But YAHWEH is in Holy temple.
Let all the earth
be silent before HIM.
 
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keras

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Does a half hour mean literally a half hour in Reve 8:1?
The Seventh Seal is a half hour of heavenly time. Which is not the same as earthly time and we are given the formula for the difference; Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8.
Therefore; 1/48th of a day in heaven equals 1/48th of 1000 years on earth. Which is about 20 years, that is around the time needed for all that is prophesied to happen from the Sixth seal until Jesus Returns.
 
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jgr

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The resurrection will provide you a immortal physical body...thus you will live in a physical place ...not in Heaven.

How do you interpret Matthew 6:9-13 if you believe that is not talking about the Kingdom YET TO COME...

Matthew 6:9-13 King James Version (KJV)

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Verse 13: "...thine is the kingdom..."

Present tense. Present reality.
 
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BABerean2

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What about the texts you say I am ignoring? The texts I have presented, why don't you feel they prove what I allege? How can Daniel 7:22 be meaning after the time of the beast in Revelation 13, but that Revelation 20:4 can't? Do not both texts involve being overcome, and in some cases, killed by this same beast in Revelation 13? Is or is not that beast this same little horn in Daniel 7?

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

"Everlasting" is a lot longer than 1,000 years.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Fair enough.
Does a half hour mean literally a half hour in Reve 8:1?
The Seventh Seal is a half hour of heavenly time. Which is not the same as earthly time and we are given the formula for the difference; Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8.
Therefore; 1/48th of a day in heaven equals 1/48th of 1000 years on earth. Which is about 20 years, that is around the time needed for all that is prophesied to happen from the Sixth seal until Jesus Returns.
Interesting.
So would that also mean 1 hour would equal 40yrs as in these verses?
Just trying to follow you on this. Thks for your patience....
Any other views on this?


Revelation 17:
12
“The ten horns which you saw are ten Kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the Beast.

16
“And the ten Horns which you saw, and the Beast, these will hate the Harlot and will make Her desolate<2049> and naked,
and will eat Her flesh and will burn Her up with fire.


Revelation 18:
10
“standing at a distance for fear of Her torment,
saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City Babylon, that mighty City!
For in one hour Thy judgment has come.'

17
‘For in one hour was desolated<2049> such great riches.'

Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors,
and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance
19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by Her wealth!
For in one hour She is made desolate<2049>.'
 
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seventysevens

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Fair enough.

Does a half hour mean literally a half hour in Reve 8:1?
Interesting.

So would that also mean 1 hour would equal 40yrs as in these verses?
Is there scripture that says that it cannot be that ?

We are living in a time where people prefer to believe that whatever they find preferable is TRUTH without any need to verify the validity of it , where people will say that TRUTH is subjective , that there is no absolute truth where the Truth is True for all, but rather each person can have their own version of truth as they see fit to be truth , saying their truth is not the same as your truth and they can have truth , you can have truth and everyone can hold whatever they believe to be truth considered to be truth - that way everyone can have truth as long as they believe it is true - but this very notion invalidates Truth in it's very definition .. People fall away from sound doctrine regardless of the topic in favor of believing what they prefer to be true , doctrine not having to be required to be biblical doctrine ,
In short it is that; people prefer to believe what they prefer to be true without the use of validating with provable truths to support what IS true -
where people look for words to express what they prefer to be true , to be considered truth without having a universal truth that all must agree to to be true -

Example is where Peter says
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Peter says plainly that one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day- Peter is making a contextual statement but amil believers hate any reference to a specific 1000 year time period simply because to accept it as written will overwhelmingly defeat the whole idea of amil which is precisely why they are so diametrically opposed to it .

If Peter was referring to simply a 'long time' then why write it in a manner that could easily be misunderstood ?
Simple plain sense would be just write it as a long time -

When people want to say it is just a long time , and then say the John simply meant a long time when He said satan will be imprisoned for 1000 years - There is no correlation at all whatsoever that suggests that John just meant a long time as John was seeing what JESUS was showing him and Jesus told John to write down what John was seeing and hearing - so it was not just some off the cuff language to be 'interpreted' according to ones own preference

Consider when you write a letter to people , and you say you are going on vacation for one week and then they tell people you would be gone for seven years; if you had not told them to interpret your letter to mean 7 years ?

In regards to the half and hour of silence in heaven , it could well mean that John seen it has 30 minutes in human time , or it could mean something else , but either way it would not be a wise thing to impart a personal interpretation just because it fits a preference to how a person desires to have other scriptures mean
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Interesting.

So would that also mean 1 hour would equal 40yrs as in these verses?
Is there scripture that says that it cannot be that ?
Nope.
So what to you and/or others think of that 1 hour I posted? I really would like to hear from others........
 
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DavidPT

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Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

"Everlasting" is a lot longer than 1,000 years.

.


Per the way I view things though, this thousand years is only a marker for the timing of events. And if meaning after Christ has returned, that would obviously mean eternity has already begun for the saints that have put on immortality at the last trump. When the thousand years expires and that satan is eventually cast into the LOF, the everlasting kingdom is still remaining and remains for forever. Otherwise that would contradict everlasting. Maybe other Premils reason some of these things differently, and that perhaps the point you are making here applies to their take on things, but as to me, the point would be moot. There is only one everlasting kingdom, and assuming the thousand years are post the 2nd coming, the everlasting kingdom continues on for forever, regardless. IOW there is no such thing as a 1000 year kingdom.
 
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seventysevens

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Nope.
So what to you and/or others think of that 1 hour I posted? I really would like to hear from others........
If someone pointed to a hot rod car and said "isn't that cool ?"
would you think they meant the temperature of the car to the touch ?
 
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Riberra

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Verse 13: "...thine is the kingdom..."

Present tense. Present reality.
A certitude ….as final achievement...Like saying that the SAINTS will inherit the Kingdom
Daniel 7:18-21
18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
…..
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Whom Jesus said is ACTUALLY the prince of this world
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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If someone pointed to a hot rod car and said "isn't that cool ?"
would you think they meant the temperature of the car to the touch ?
Didn't answer the question....Let me post the verses again for the benefit of our viewers here which I was discussing with another member:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-their-problems.8071615/page-47#post-72955511

So would that also mean 1 hour would equal 40yrs as in these verses?
Just trying to follow you on this. Thks for your patience....
Any other views on this?


Revelation 17:
12
“The ten horns which you saw are ten Kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the Beast.

16
“And the ten Horns which you saw, and the Beast, these will hate the Harlot and will make Her desolate<2049> and naked,
and will eat Her flesh and will burn Her up with fire.


Revelation 18:
10
“standing at a distance for fear of Her torment,
saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City Babylon, that mighty City!
For in one hour Thy judgment has come.'

17
‘For in one hour was desolated<2049> such great riches.'

Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors,
and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance
19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by Her wealth!
For in one hour She is made desolate<2049>.'
 
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Riberra

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Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

"Everlasting" is a lot longer than 1,000 years.
It include the 1,000 years ….Revelation 20 precede Revelation 21.
 
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keras

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Interesting.
So would that also mean 1 hour would equal 40yrs as in these verses?
Just trying to follow you on this. Thks for your patience....
Any other views on this?
No; it would not mean that.
We can't just apply the 1000 years on earth = 1 day in heaven randomly. It also is not the other way, as some others like to twist it.
Like the 1 day for a year in Ezekiel 4:4-6, that cannot be used as a general formula.

The 'one hour' as you quote from Rev 17:12, we know is actually 42 months; Rev 13:5
Rev 18, just refers to a short time, maybe exactly sixty minutes.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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No; it would not mean that.
We can't just apply the 1000 years on earth = 1 day in heaven randomly. It also is not the other way, as some others like to twist it.
Like the 1 day for a year in Ezekiel 4:4-6, that cannot be used as a general formula.

The 'one hour' as you quote from Rev 17:12, we know is actually 42 months; Rev 13:5
Rev 18, just refers to a short time, maybe exactly sixty minutes.
Ah, thanks for clarifying that. In that case, I would think the half hour would be 21 months...........
 
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seventysevens

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Didn't answer the question....Let me post the verses again for the benefit of our viewers here which I was discussing with another member:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-their-problems.8071615/page-47#post-72955511

So would that also mean 1 hour would equal 40yrs as in these verses?
Just trying to follow you on this. Thks for your patience....
Any other views on this?


Revelation 17:
12
“The ten horns which you saw are ten Kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the Beast.

16
“And the ten Horns which you saw, and the Beast, these will hate the Harlot and will make Her desolate<2049> and naked,
and will eat Her flesh and will burn Her up with fire.


Revelation 18:
10
“standing at a distance for fear of Her torment,
saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City Babylon, that mighty City!
For in one hour Thy judgment has come.'

17
‘For in one hour was desolated<2049> such great riches.'

Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors,
and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance
19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by Her wealth!
For in one hour She is made desolate<2049>.'
I do not see any reference that it would mean 40 years - , but it be just supposition
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Is there scripture that can't be an hour in human time ?
I do not see any reference that it would mean 40 years - but that does not mean it cannot be , but it be just supposition
Keras is the one that brought up the
Is there scripture that can't be an hour in human time ?
I do not see any reference that it would mean 40 years - , but it be just supposition
Do you agree with keras on his hour and the half hour theory? Argue about it with him......
keras said:
The Seventh Seal is a half hour of heavenly time. Which is not the same as earthly time and we are given the formula for the difference; Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8.
Therefore; 1/48th of a day in heaven equals 1/48th of 1000 years on earth. Which is about 20 years, that is around the time needed for all that is prophesied to happen from the Sixth seal until Jesus Returns.
No; it would not mean that.
We can't just apply the 1000 years on earth = 1 day in heaven randomly. It also is not the other way, as some others like to twist it.
Like the 1 day for a year in Ezekiel 4:4-6, that cannot be used as a general formula.

The 'one hour' as you quote from Rev 17:12, we know is actually 42 months; Rev 13:5
Rev 18, just refers to a short time, maybe exactly sixty minutes.
 
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seventysevens

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Keras is the one that brought up the
Do you agree with keras on his half hour theory? Argue about it with him......
not necessarily but it cannot be known at this time , but then You asked me twice about it , why did you ask me twice and not willing to give your own view about it?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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no but You asked me twice about , , why did you ask me twice and not willing to give your own view about it?
So what is your view of the hour and half hour?
And is the "rapture" showing in Revelation?..........

Revelation 8:1
When He opened the seventh seal,
and became a hush/silence/sigh<4602> in the Heaven for about half an hour.

Revelation 18:
19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by Her wealth!
For in one hour She is made desolate<2049>.'
 
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seventysevens

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So what is your view of the hour and half hour?
And is the "rapture" showing in Revelation?..........

Revelation 8:1
When He opened the seventh seal,
and became a hush/silence/sigh<4602> in the Heaven for about half an hour.
Why don't you just say what it is that you are leading to.....
 
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