Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

DavidPT said:

Yet this totally ignores what is stated in Zechariah 14 though. Either Zechariah 14 is holy Scripture as well, or someone made a mistake by adding it in with the other holy Scriptures included in our Bibles. These things therefore have to be understood in such a way that there are no contradictions. We may have to start another one of those Zechariah 14 threads in order to try and get to the bottom of some of these things.

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Absolutely, not.


Which part of Zechariah's vision do you think shows mortals in the New Heavens and the New Earth ?

Which Jerusalem in Galatians 4:25-26 is found in the passage?

Who is the tabernacle?


Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.



Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

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Dave L said:

But you cannot find this in Revelation 20. You have glorified saints only because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. And the rest of the dead did not live until after the 1000 years.

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Revelation 20 is not the only scripture that speak of this time. And Revelation 20 actually shows others existing at that time. For verse 4 distinctly says that these resurrected saints "reigned with Christ for a thousand years." To reign, it is absolutely necessary to have someone over which to reign. So there simply have to be others present, beside just the resurrected saints. Is is impossible to escape from this necessary fact. For even Revelation 2o, like many other parts of scripture, shows that there will be others present beside only resurrected saints.

You are insisting on a possible interpretation of the meaning of a single passage of scripture as the only possible interpretation of its meaning, and using that erroneous conclusion as an excuse to deny the truth of a great many other passages of scripture.

Biblewriter said:

Revelation 20 is not the only scripture that speak of this time. And Revelation 20 actually shows others existing at that time. For verse 4 distinctly says that these resurrected saints "reigned with Christ for a thousand years." To reign, it is absolutely necessary to have someone over which to reign. So there simply have to be others present, beside just the resurrected saints. Is is impossible to escape from this necessary fact. For even Revelation 2o, like many other parts of scripture, shows that there will be others present beside only resurrected saints.

You are insisting on a possible interpretation of the meaning of a single passage of scripture as the only possible interpretation of its meaning, and using that erroneous conclusion as an excuse to deny the truth of a great many other passages of scripture.

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You have to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and 2 Timothy 4:1, to make your doctrine work.



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Biblewriter said:

Revelation 20 is not the only scripture that speak of this time. And Revelation 20 actually shows others existing at that time. For verse 4 distinctly says that these resurrected saints "reigned with Christ for a thousand years." To reign, it is absolutely necessary to have someone over which to reign. So there simply have to be others present, beside just the resurrected saints. Is is impossible to escape from this necessary fact. For even Revelation 2o, like many other parts of scripture, shows that there will be others present beside only resurrected saints.

You are insisting on a possible interpretation of the meaning of a single passage of scripture as the only possible interpretation of its meaning, and using that erroneous conclusion as an excuse to deny the truth of a great many other passages of scripture.

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To add to what you said. Maybe you will agree with the following, maybe you won't, I don't know.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

IMO this is referring to Revelation 20:4.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Look at the following parts side by side. The KJV pretty much translates them identically.

and judgment was given to the saints of the most High
and judgment was given unto them

Who could argue, that in Revelation 20:4 'them' are not referring to the saints of the most High? If those who reign with Christ a thousand years are not the saints of the most High, who and what are they then?

In Daniel 7 look where it places the timing of verse 22.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

IOW, the chonology is thus----the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came

What happens once the Ancient of days comes? This----and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Let's now compare with Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Therefore---the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them---during the 42 month reign of the beast. That places Daniel 7:22 after the time of the 42 month reign of the beast, which in turn places the time of Revelation 20:4 after the 42 month reign of the beast as well since Revelation 20:4 is referring to the same events as Daniel 7:22.

But we have to fully ignore and throw away all of this undeniable evidence, if we are to accept a position such as Amil instead.

Premils can prove their position from both testaments, Amils can't. Amils pretty much base their conclusions on the NT alone, and apparently, in their minds, anything the NT ALONE says automatically trumps anything the OT and NT combined says. That's what we are dealing with when we are dealing with a position such as Amil.

Dave L said:

Revelation 20 does not support Dispensationalism or Premillennialism. It depicts a spiritual kingdom of souls from those beheaded. And the thrones we are now seated on with Christ Ephesians 2:6; Ephesians 1:20. Back in the gospels Jesus said his kingdom comes without observation, one must be born again to see it, it is not of this world, and was already in the midst of the Pharisees when they asked about it. And that it had already overtaken them. suffering violence at their hands, and proven to already exist by his casting out demons by the finger of God.

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Go through post #885 for us then, pointing out all of the mistakes made per those conclusions, then correct those mistakes by providing the correct conclusions instead. But if you are not willing or unable to do that, all you have as an argument is an opinion. Opinions not backed with Scriptural arguments prove zero though.

To add to post #885, the following further undeniably proves my conclusions are correct about the timing of Daniel 7:22 and Revelation 20:4, being post the timing of the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. That undeniable evidence from Revelation 20:4 being this-----and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. That obviously takes place during the 42 month reign of the beast per Revelation 13.

The 42 month reign of the beast can't occur while satan is bound in the pit. There is only two times when he is not bound in the pit. Before the thousand years and after the thousand years. Revelation 20:4 clearly places the time of the 42 month reign of the beast as already fulfilled and in the past when satan is loosed from the pit after the thousand years. Therefore the only logical place the 42 month reign of the beast can possibly fit is before the beginning of the thousand years, which in turn undeniably proves Premil.

Dave L said:

Daniel 7 speaks of Christ's first advent and the establishment of the kingdom. Persecution of the saints (world history to date) And the full restoration that takes place on the last day at his second advent. We are in the kingdom, but only the born again can see it.

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Yet, once again, all you have as an argument is an opinion which you are not proving Scripturally nor logically.

Let's try another angle then.

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)


That in Revelation 20:4 is undeniably referring to the following----and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them(Daniel 7:21)


That in Daniel 7:21 is undeniably referring to the following----and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months(Revelation 13:5)----And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them(Revelation 13:7)----and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:15)


Where we then see it eventually leads to this----Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22).

Obviously the 42 month reign of the beast is fulfilled at the end of this age since it is this same beast that is taken alive, then cast into the LOF, per Revelation 19. And if Daniel 7:22 is undeniably meaning after the time of the 42 month reign of the beast, then so must Revelation 20:4 be meaning after that time as well. All of the above clearly undeniably proves it.

DavidPT said:

The 42 month reign of the beast can't occur while satan is bound in the pit.

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2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

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DavidPT said:

.....

The 42 month reign of the beast can't occur while satan is bound in the pit. There is only two times when he is not bound in the pit. Before the thousand years and after the thousand years. Revelation 20:4 clearly places the time of the 42 month reign of the beast as already fulfilled and in the past when satan is loosed from the pit after the thousand years. Therefore the only logical place the 42 month reign of the beast can possibly fit is before the beginning of the thousand years, which in turn undeniably proves Premil.

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According these verses where "abyss" is used, I would tend to agree...

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...our-day-month-and-year.8072654/#post-72953816
Who are the 4 Messengers in Revelation

Revelation 9:
1 And the fifth messenger did sound, and I saw a Star out of the heaven having fallen to the land,
and there was given to it the key of the well/pit of the Abyss,
2 and he did open the well/pit of the Abyss, and there came up smoke out of the well/pit as smoke of a great furnace,
and darkened was the sun and the air, from the smoke of the well/pit.
11 and they have over them a King — the messenger of the Abyss —
a name [is] to him in Hebrew, Abaddon,
and in the Greek he hath a name, Apollyon/destroyer.
Revelation 11
7 ‘And whenever they should be finishing their testimony,
the beast that is ascending out of the Abyss shall be doing battle with them, and shall be conqering/overcoming them, and shall be killing them,
8 and their dead bodies lay upon the broad-place of the great City (that is called spiritually Sodom, and Egypt, where also our/their Lord was crucified,)
Revelation 17:8
‘The beast that thou didst see: it was, and is not and is being about to be ascending out of the Abyss, and to go away to perdition/destruction,
and wonder shall those dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world,
beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.
Revelation 20
1 And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the Abyss, and a great chain over his hand,
2 and he laid hold on the Dragon, the old serpent, who is a Devil and Satan, and did bind Him a thousand years,
3 and he cast him to the Abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him,
that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished;
and after these, it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.

BABerean2 said:

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

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And what exactly does this disprove about any of my recent conclusions I have been submitting in this thread? Does this prove Daniel 7:22 is not meaning after the time of the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13?

One thing we do know, is that when the 4 Messengers are released in Revelation 7, the end of the "physical land/temple" of Israel and the beginning of the "spiritual land/new spiritual temple" begins......

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...our-day-month-and-year.8072654/#post-72953816
Who are the 4 messengers in Revelation?

Isaiah 11:12
He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.


Ezekiel 7:
1 And a Word of Yahweh is becoming to me to say of, `And thou, Son of 'adam! thus says Adonay Yahweh to ground of Yisra'el:
2 An End! comes, the End on four of corners of the land.
3 Now the End upon thee, and I send My anger in thee, and I judge thee as ways of thee, and I give on thee all abominations/08441 tow`ebah of thee.

Revelation 7:1
After these things I saw 4 Messengers standing at the four corners of the land,
holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the land, on the sea, or on any tree.

Matthew 24:31
and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.
Mark 13:27
“And then He will send His messenger, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Isaiah 11:12
He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.

Ezekiel 37:9
And He saith unto me: 'Prophesy! unto the Spirit, prophesy! son of man, and thou hast said unto the Spirit:
Thus said the Lord Jehovah: From the four winds come in, O Spirit, and breathe on these slain, and they do live.'

Daniel 7:2
Answered hath Daniel and said, 'I was seeing in my vision by night, and lo, the four winds of the heavens are coming forth to the great sea;

Dave L said:

Your problem is that all of this already happened and continues to happen until Christ returns the second time. If you look for the symbols of Revelation to appear physically, you'll never see it. But if you look for what they represent, world history if rife with it beginning with Nero, continuing through the Papacy and Islam in our day. Jesus established the eternal kingdom at his first advent just as foretold.

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You must be Preterist in a lot of your thinking then. I'm not. I stick to the texts myself without bring any preconceived bias to them. I can see in the texts I have submitted, where that includes Daniel 7, Revelation 13, Revelation 19, and Revelation 20, that the timing meant for the thousand years can only be meaning post the 2nd coming. Until someone goes through all of those posts I submitted, with a fine tooth comb, and finds issues, thus corrects them, I have to in the meantime assume I have the better arguments in this case, as opposed to your arguments which seem to consist of nothing but opinions without even having to prove those opinions. Then on top of that you have folks agreeing with your opinions. Which then tells me some folks seem more readily to agree with opinions that prove nothing, rather than with opinions that actually do.

Dave L said:

I believe every main eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.


But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.


The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.


The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.


Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.


But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.


Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

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As long as there is any prophecy in Revelation that doesn't have a fulfillment, then we have to say that it will be fulfilled in the future, physically.

The kingdom is spiritual at the present time, but physical in the future. Otherwise, why would there be 2 fulfilments of the creation of a spiritual kingdom?

When talking about the '1000 years' of Rev 20, it just means the Day of the Lord (as per 2 Peter 3:8) which is a deliberately ambiguous amount of time.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-their-problems.8071615/page-45#post-72953845
4 winds and 4 corners

This verse interest me. It mentions both the 4 corners and the 4 winds
We know the global earth is round, and I don't know any country or land that has 4 corners, but I am working on that. Any ideas?

Ezekiel 7:
1 And a Word of Yahweh is becoming to me to say of, `And thou, Son of 'adam! thus says Adonay Yahweh to ground of Yisra'el:
2 An End! comes, the End on four of corners of the land.

Revelation 7:1
After these things I saw 4 Messengers standing at the four corners of the land,
holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the land, on the sea, or on any tree.

However, if the 4 winds are coming from different directions, it could be from the north, south, east and west"

Psalms 107:3
And gathered out of the lands,
From the east and from the west,
From the north and from the south.

Luke 13:
28
“There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
29
“They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.
34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together

Now a non-round house usually has corners, same with the rooms........just now saw this:

35
“See! Your house [OC temple/sanctuary/priesthood 70ad?] is left to you desolate; and assuredly,.................

tranquil said:

As long as there is any prophecy in Revelation that doesn't have a fulfillment, then we have to say that it will be fulfilled in the future, physically.
The kingdom is spiritual at the present time, but physical in the future.
Otherwise, why would there be 2 fulfilments of the creation of a spiritual kingdom?...............................

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It is spiritual now but physical in the future? Interesting concept.