Soul goes to heaven before Resurrection? Soul goes to heaven after resurrection?

Do we immediately go to heaven when we die or no?

  • the soul ascends to heaven BEFORE the resurrection

    Votes: 10 52.6%
  • the soul ascends to heaven AFTER the resurrection

    Votes: 9 47.4%

  • Total voters
    19

drich0150

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when you sleep do you have any concept of time? Most don't. So from God's perspective the souls come together at a singular point in the future. For us with no concept of time after death the journey is instantaneous. absent from the body present with the lord. close your eyes here wake up in the resurrection.

So which is true? both depends on which POV you are speaking of.
 
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parousia70

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Can you link me to the Catechism of the Catholic Church supporting your comments above?

Why?
Do you hold the CCC as authoritative for you?

I did link you SCRIPTURE supporting my comments, as I figured you would hold that as authoritative.

Would you care to address the scripture I cited?
 
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redleghunter

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Why?
Do you hold the CCC as authoritative for you?
Well I know the CCC pretty well and your views really don't line up with it. That's why I asked...just maybe there was a change or I missed something in 16 years of RC education.
 
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parousia70

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Well I know the CCC pretty well and your views really don't line up with it. That's why I asked...just maybe there was a change or I missed something in 16 years of RC education.

Oh...are you appointing yourself the arbiter of how Catholicy I am?
I didn't know that was pertinent to the thread topic.

I suppose you could lodge a complaint to the admins if you feel my expressed views in this thread are not Catholic enough, but I'm not sure what the point would be.....

If you want to start a thread on Catholic Dogma vs Doctrine, and the freedoms (or lack thereof) of the individual Catholic to differ from various church teaching and still remain a Catholic, then I say go for it... I may even chime in...

If you want to challenge the views I expressed on the timing and nature of the Dead departing from Hades, and challenge the scripture I cited in support of those views I hold about it, then this is Absolutely the thread to do that.
 
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redleghunter

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Oh...are you appointing yourself the arbiter of how Catholicy I am?
I didn't know that was pertinent to the thread topic.
Oh no nothing like that. I'm just curious when y'all wonder off the reservation and why that happens.

I suppose you could lodge a complaint to the admins if you feel my expressed views in this thread are not Catholic enough, but I'm not sure what the point would be.....
Nothing like that at all. Again just curious as you guys do have a catechism and when you express views which are not in keeping with them, I'm just curious at the reasons.
No need to respond, just curious.
 
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parousia70

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Nothing like that at all. Again just curious as you guys do have a catechism and when you express views which are not in keeping with them, I'm just curious at the reasons.
No need to respond, just curious.

Again, happy to chime in on a thread about Dogma vs Doctrine and where the Church stands on requirements vs. leeway for the individual Catholic.

You do realize not ALL church teaching contains a REQUIREMENT for the individual Catholic to be in lock step with in order to remain a Catholic in Good standing in the Church, do you not?
 
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redleghunter

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Again, happy to chime in on a thread about Dogma vs Doctrine and where the Church stands on requirements vs. leeway for the individual Catholic.

You do realize not ALL church teaching contains a REQUIREMENT for the individual Catholic to be in lock step with in order to remain a Catholic in Good standing in the Church, do you not?
Yes I do. In fact there is probably more liberty in many theological views in Roman Catholicism than many Protestant denominations.

However, the position you are taking I'm thinking is not one of those 'liberal' areas. It's not even close to RC teachings.

But again, was just curious.
 
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parousia70

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However, the position you are taking I'm thinking is not one of those 'liberal' areas.


Well, since you brought it up, why not show me why you think so?
Where in the CCC do you find the Church teaching that I can not hold to the views I have expressed and remain a Catholic?

I mean... it kinda derails the thread tho...which is why I suggested you start another to satisfy that curiosity of yours :)

But go right ahead and present your evidence.

But first, do you disagree with the conclusions I have drawn and the scriptural support I have provided for those conclusions...or do you simply find them not catholicy enough so wanted to head down the rabbit hole with me about that?
 
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redleghunter

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Well, since you brought it up, why not show me why you think so?
PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH


SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH


CHAPTER TWO
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD


ARTICLE 5
"HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN"


631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles' Creed confesses in the same article Christ's descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:



Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477
Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487



Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488
IN BRIEF

636 By the expression "He descended into hell", the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil "who has the power of death" (Heb 2:14).

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him.



Where in the CCC do you find the Church teaching that I can not hold to the views I have expressed and remain a Catholic?
I believe that is a discussion you and your local ordinary should have.
 
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parousia70

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PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH


SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH


CHAPTER TWO
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD


ARTICLE 5
"HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN"


631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles' Creed confesses in the same article Christ's descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:



Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477
Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell


632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487



Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488
IN BRIEF

636 By the expression "He descended into hell", the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil "who has the power of death" (Heb 2:14).

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him.

Can you please show me what part specifically contradicts my post?
I don't see much of anything....

Are you hanging your hat on the word "Delivered"? or "free the Just"?

Please show where the Church teaches SPECIFICALLY these souls were taken to Heaven at that time. I don't read that anywhere here. it appears you are making an assumption and applying it to the text.
"Free the Just" isn't quite specific enough, and it in no way contradicts my comments on the Biblical phrase "lead captivity captive"... the ccc, at least in the section quoted, is silent on that... it certainly does not contradict what I said at all.

I believe that is a discussion you and your local ordinary should have.

Why...?
You are the one who brought it up.
Sounds like you are the one who should have the discussion.
I'm already confident about it.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Q: SPIRIT (pneuma) of believers go to "heaven" before the "Resurrection" (of Body/Soul combo?)

A: Yes:

Ecclesiastes 12: 1, 5d, 7 (NASB)....Remember God in Your Youth...SPIRIT returns to god
Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, “I have no delight in them”;...
For man goes to his ETERNAL home while mourners go about in the street....
then the dust (Body/Soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (Genesis 2:7 creation)
and the SPIRIT will return to God who gave it. ( Genesis 1:26 creation)

Eternal Suffering or Just Lights Out? (or ???)

DEATH...then what?

What I choose to be BELIEVE:
" To be absent from the BODY/SOUL (death) is to be present (spiritually) with the TRI-UNE GOD (eternal life in heavenly realms)".
SEE: 2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV)...Our Heavenly Dwelling ...a paraphrase of Paul, emphasizing differences in BODY / SPIRIT.

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV)...Our Heavenly Dwelling
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer
to be away from the BODY(/SOUL) and at home (HEAVEN) with the Lord.(SPIRITUAL PRESENCE)

1 Peter 3: 18-19 (NIV with my comments)
(Jesus the Christ's BODY) being put to death in the flesh, but made (spiritually) alive by (God) the (Holy) Spirit, 19 by whom also He (resurrected Jesus) went and preached to (~release) the spirits (souls) in prison,...
("Paradise" + "Hades" sides of "Abraham's Bosom")

For the THREE parts of man, SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY,
SEE:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NIV)
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 (NASB) ....difference in SOUL and SPIRIT
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the DIVISION of SOUL and SPIRIT,
of both joints and marrow, (BODY)
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.(spiritual conscience)

Luke 16: 19-31...Jesus teaching on Jewish Tradition...Jesus' descent to set the captives free...
TWO unseen and separated spiritual PLACES for the bodies / souls of the DEAD...
"Paradise"* + "Hades"** = "Abraham's Busom"

"Paradise"* - The ACTUAL spiritual abode was: "angel populated", "comfort(ing)", containing secret "inexpressible things"
---------------------
Hades"** (Greek) = ~Hell = ~Gehenna (place of fire?) = ~Sheol (lowest grave?)
The ACTUAL spiritual abode was for the unbelieving and unsaved souls / unborn spirits of the dead,
AFTER physical death and BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgement (Revelations 20: 11-15 ) ...sheep or goats.
The abode was : CONSCIOUS, TORMENTS/AGONY, NO 2nd CHANCE, NO communication with the LIVING,
and you can SEE "Paradise".
 
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redleghunter

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This is an all too common misreading of Ephesians 4:7-10

The "captivity" that a triumphant King would "lead captive" was his bound enemies. The victorious king would lead a parade through town, marching his bound prisoners in a public display to shame them and gloat over them (Col 1:15 uses this concept too). That is why bible expositors discussing Eph 4:8 often point to the broken dominion of the enemies Satan (1 Jn 3:8; Col 1:15), sin (Rom 6:14), and death (Rom 6:9 ) -- these were the "captivity" that Christ led away as his captives. So the "captivity" one leads captive are one's enemies who have been triumphed over. This notion is also the sense of Psalm 68:17-18 concerning the exodus, Sinai and the defeat of the pagans in the promised land.

Additionally, in the spectacle of the public parade the King receives gifts in homage (Ps 68:18,29,31) and he generously distributes the spoils of war to his own citizens (Ps 68:19). With Christ, he distributes the spoils of his war unto the Church in the form of the charismata given unto mankind, making them Chosen apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers with him (Eph 4:8,11)

Resurrection is the ONLY vehicle by which the dead are RAISED from Hades into the Heights of Heaven.

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH


SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH


CHAPTER TWO
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD


ARTICLE 5
"HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN"


631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles' Creed confesses in the same article Christ's descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:



Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477
Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell


632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487



Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488
IN BRIEF

636 By the expression "He descended into hell", the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil "who has the power of death" (Heb 2:14).

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him.

Can you please show me what part specifically contradicts my post?
I don't see much of anything....
You tell me. I quoted your post and then the CCC. But alas, I was just curious.
 
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parousia70

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You tell me. I quoted your post and then the CCC.

I did tell you.
The CCC section you quoted doesn't contradict my expressed views on the phrase "lead captivity captive"..though even if it did, it nowhere teaches I MUST be in lock step with it to remain a Catholic, which is what you appear to be claiming, yet can't show me where such is taught?

But alas, I was just curious.
I do appreciate your curiosity.
Here's Matthew Henry on the subject:

"As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Jdg. 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands."
 
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parousia70

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I'm just curious when y'all wonder off the reservation and why that happens.

This may help.

CCC 1800
A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.

We are mandated by the Church to ALWAYS obey our conscience.
So it really isn't going off the reservation when we do so, is it?

Now, also take note of the language "must always obey" in 1800.

In none of the CCC texts you cited can we find that the Catholic "Must always obey", but here, we do.
 
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redleghunter

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This may help.

CCC 1800
A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.

We are mandated by the Church to ALWAYS obey our conscience.
So it really isn't going off the reservation when we do so, is it?

Now, also take note of the language "must always obey" in 1800.

In none of the CCC texts you cited can we find that the Catholic "Must always obey", but here, we do.
I’m aware of CCC 1800 being the most used standard escape clause. Francis has used it on occasion.
 
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parousia70

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I’m aware of CCC 1800 being the most used standard escape clause. Francis has used it on occasion.

Wait, so you don't find CCC 1800 authoritative, but you do find other CCC passages authoritative?

Wait again... don't you reject ALL of the CCC as authoritative?

You seem to be all over the map on this....

Now you've got me curious as to why you've gone off the reservation?
 
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