Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

The several mentions in Revelation of a 3 1/2 year, or 42 month, or 1260 day period, all meaning the same thing; half of 7 years, coupled with Daniel 9:27 that says the 70th 'week' will be divided in half. is cast iron proof of that Seven years being in the end times. The final seven years before Jesus Returns.
It is only people who have another agenda who want to push their idea of it being a past event.

LittleLambofJesus said:

I don't think we have a count of the number of Jews killed throughout all of Israel during the Romans war against the Jew between 66-73 ad but I would assume the percentage is quite higher than the Jews killed during the holocaust, making it no less horrible.

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I think that during the holocaust, the number was 6 million. That doesn't mean that 70 AD was not an equally devastating time for the Jews.

keras said:

The several mentions in Revelation of a 3 1/2 year, or 42 month, or 1260 day period, all meaning the same thing; half of 7 years, coupled with Daniel 9:27 that says the 70th 'week' will be divided in half. is cast iron proof of that Seven years being in the end times. The final seven years before Jesus Returns.
It is only people who have another agenda who want to push their idea of it being a past event.

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Well, ya know what they say about opinions, noses and agendas.........

There is a false accusation that has been repeated several times in this discussion. And that is that the conclusions of Futurists are "conjectures." While it is indeed true that some of the conclusions reached by Futurists are indeed nothing but conjectures, it is not "conjecture" to conclude that the word of God is reliable. When the Bible says that such-and-such an event was going to happen, and we know that it has not happened, saying it will happen is not conjecture, but belief. It is nothing more or less than simple faith in the truthfulness and reliability of A God that cannot lie.

So it is indeed a false accusation to call this conjecture.

keras said:

The several mentions in Revelation of a 3 1/2 year, or 42 month, or 1260 day period, all meaning the same thing; half of 7 years, coupled with Daniel 9:27 that says the 70th 'week' will be divided in half. is cast iron proof of that Seven years being in the end times. The final seven years before Jesus Returns.
It is only people who have another agenda who want to push their idea of it being a past event.

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Did these brethren have another agenda?

190AD Clement of Alexandria (On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation) "We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away." ... "These two thousand three hundred days, then, make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway, and it was half a week; and for a half, Vespasian with Otho, Galba, and Vitellius reigned. And on this account Daniel says, "Blessed is he that cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." For up to these days was war, and after them it ceased. And this number is demonstrated from a subsequent chapter, which is as follows: "And from the time of the change of continuation, and of the giving of the abomination of desolation, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." " (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, p. 334)

190AD Tertullian Chap. Viii.--Of The Times Of Christ's Birth And Passion, And Of Jerusalem's Destruction. "Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that "both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin."(7) And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader,(8) must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen. ... "Therefore, when these times also were completed, and the Jews subdued, there afterwards ceased in that place "libations and sacrifices," which thenceforward have not been able to be in that place celebrated; for "the unction," too,(6) was "exterminated" in that place after the passion of Christ. For it had been predicted that the unction should be exterminated in that place; as in the Psalms it is prophesied, "They exterminated my hands and feet."(7) And the suffering of this "extermination" was perfected within the times of the lxx hebdomads, under Tiberius Caesar, in the consulate of Rubellius Geminus and Fufius Geminus, in the month of March, at the times of the passover, on the eighth day before the calends of April,(8) on the first day of unleavened bread, on which they slew the lamb at even, just as had been enjoined by Moses.(9) Accordingly, all the synagogue of Israel did slay Him, saying to Pilate, when he was desirous to dismiss Him, "His blood be upon us, and upon our children;"(10) and, "If thou dismiss him, thou art not a friend of Caesar;"(11) in order that all things might be fulfilled which had been written of Him.(12)" (Against the Jews, Ch.8) (On the Significance of A.D. 70)

jgr said:

Did these brethren have another agenda?

190AD Clement of Alexandria (On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation) "We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away." ... "These two thousand three hundred days, then, make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway, and it was half a week; and for a half, Vespasian with Otho, Galba, and Vitellius reigned. And on this account Daniel says, "Blessed is he that cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." For up to these days was war, and after them it ceased. And this number is demonstrated from a subsequent chapter, which is as follows: "And from the time of the change of continuation, and of the giving of the abomination of desolation, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." " (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, p. 334)

190AD Tertullian Chap. Viii.--Of The Times Of Christ's Birth And Passion, And Of Jerusalem's Destruction. "Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that "both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin."(7) And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader,(8) must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen. ... "Therefore, when these times also were completed, and the Jews subdued, there afterwards ceased in that place "libations and sacrifices," which thenceforward have not been able to be in that place celebrated; for "the unction," too,(6) was "exterminated" in that place after the passion of Christ. For it had been predicted that the unction should be exterminated in that place; as in the Psalms it is prophesied, "They exterminated my hands and feet."(7) And the suffering of this "extermination" was perfected within the times of the lxx hebdomads, under Tiberius Caesar, in the consulate of Rubellius Geminus and Fufius Geminus, in the month of March, at the times of the passover, on the eighth day before the calends of April,(8) on the first day of unleavened bread, on which they slew the lamb at even, just as had been enjoined by Moses.(9) Accordingly, all the synagogue of Israel did slay Him, saying to Pilate, when he was desirous to dismiss Him, "His blood be upon us, and upon our children;"(10) and, "If thou dismiss him, thou art not a friend of Caesar;"(11) in order that all things might be fulfilled which had been written of Him.(12)" (Against the Jews, Ch.8) (On the Significance of A.D. 70)

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You quote these men as if their words were authoritative. But Irenaeus, writing a little before Clement of Alexandria, and Hippolytus, writing a little before Tertullian, as well as Apollinarius of Laodicea, writing in the mid to late fourth century, all clearly taught that Daniel's seventieth week remained to be fulfilled in the future.

jgr said:

Did these brethren have another agenda?

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They were good Christian men, but they were not prophets and what they believed and wrote was to the best of their understanding. They were just as prone to faulty exegesis, as we are today.

Why don't you address my proofs in #821?

keras said:

They were good Christian men, but they were not prophets and what they believed and wrote was to the best of their understanding. They were just as prone to faulty exegesis, as we are today.

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agreed. I couldn't have said it better.

Biblewriter said:

You quote these men as if their words were authoritative. But Irenaeus, writing a little before Clement of Alexandria, and Hippolytus, writing a little before Tertullian, as well as Apollinarius of Laodicea, writing in the mid to late fourth century, all clearly taught that Daniel's seventieth week remained to be fulfilled in the future.

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I have acknowledged Irenaeus' and Hippolytus' postponement theory frequently. The end of their postulated 500-year gap came and went uneventfully.

Biblewriter said:

Apollinarius of Laodicea

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Citation?

keras said:

They were good Christian men, but they were not prophets and what they believed and wrote was to the best of their understanding. They were just as prone to faulty exegesis, as we are today.

Why don't you address my proofs in #821?

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You first need to respond to my post here which preceded yours.

The gap in the 70th week is a fallacy. There is no gap at at all. Messiah is cut off in the middle of the 70th week, which puts an end to sacrifice and grain offerings. That can only be Jesus' ultimate sacrifice.

The passage does not present a gap at all...it's an eschatological "gap theory".

ebedmelech said:

The passage does not present a gap at all...it's an eschatological "gap theory".

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Well then: where's your proof of a seven year period after the Messiah was cut off? His Crucifixion, then with one half spent, [3 1/2 years] sacrifices and offerings will be stopped......

Biblewriter said:

You quote these men as if their words were authoritative. But Irenaeus, writing a little before Clement of Alexandria, and Hippolytus, writing a little before Tertullian, as well as Apollinarius of Laodicea, writing in the mid to late fourth century, all clearly taught that Daniel's seventieth week remained to be fulfilled in the future.

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Just like you, they must have ignored the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 was fulfilled by Christ during the first century, based on Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Did they think the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to describe the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then never even mentioned the New Covenant?

Did any of those men write about the fulfillment of the New Covenant found in the passages above from the New Testament?


The New Covenant: Bob George


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jgr said:

I have acknowledged Irenaeus' and Hippolytus' postponement theory frequently. The end of their postulated 500-year gap came and went uneventfully.



Citation?

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“To the period of four hundred and ninety years the wicked deeds are to be confined as well as all the crimes which shall ensue from those deeds. After these shall come the times of blessing, and the world is to be reconciled unto God at the advent of Christ, His Son. For from the coming forth of the Word, when Christ was born of the Virgin Mary, to the forty-ninth year, that is, the end of the seven weeks, [God] waited for Israel to repent. Thereafter, indeed, from the eighth year of Claudius Caesar [i.e., 48 A.D.] onward, the Romans took up arms against the Jews. For it was in His thirtieth year, according to the Evangelist Luke, that the Lord incarnate began His preaching of the Gospel (Luke 1) [sic!]. According to the Evangelist John (John 2 and 11), Christ completed two years over a period of three passovers. The years of Tiberius' reign from that point onward are to be reckoned at six; then there were the four years of the reign of Gaius Caesar, surnamed Caligula, and eight more years in the reign of Claudius. This makes a total of forty-nine years, or the equivalent of seven weeks of years. But when four hundred thirty-four years shall have elapsed after that date, that is to say, the sixty-two weeks, then [i.e. in 482 A.D.] Jerusalem and the Temple shall be rebuilt during three and a half years within the final week, beginning with the advent of Elias, who according to the dictum of our Lord and Savior (Luke 1) [sic!] is going to come and turn back the hearts of the fathers towards their children. And then the Antichrist shall come, and according to the Apostle [reading apostolum for apostolorum] he is going to sit in the temple of God (II Thess. 2) and be slain by the breath of our Lord and Savior after he has waged war against the saints. And thus it shall come to pass that the middle of the week shall mark the confirmation of God's covenant with the saints, and the middle of the week in turn shall mark the issuing of the decree under the authority of Antichrist that no more sacrifices be offered. For the Antichrist shall set up the abomination of desolation, that is, an idol or statue of his own god, within the Temple. Then shall ensue the final devastation and the condemnation of the Jewish people, who after their rejection of Christ's truth shall embrace the lie of the Antichrist.” (Jerome’s translation of the comments of Apollinarius of Laodicea on the seventy weeks, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” by Jerome, pp. 104-105, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., pub. by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

Jerome himself, who published this translation (into Latin,) declined to give his opinion on this passage, saying, “I realize that this question has been argued over in various ways by men of greatest learning, and that each of them has expressed his views according to the capacity of his own genius. And so, because it is unsafe to pass judgment upon the opinions of the great teachers of the Church and to set one above another, I shall simply repeat the view of each, and leave it to the reader's judgment as to whose explanation ought to be followed.” (pg. 95 in the volume cited.)

He then went on to summarize the views of many who commented on this, but omitting Irenaeus. In addition to the translation above, he summarized the views of Hippolytus (pp. 103-104). In addition, he summarized the views of Eusebius, (pp. 98-103) Clement of Alexandria, (pg. 105) Origen, (pp. 105-106) and Tertullian (pp. 106-108)., all of which interpreted the seventieth week to be already fulfilled. He also gave he views of “the Hebrews,” (pp. 108-110) and included what he claimed was a “verbatim” translation of the comments on the subject by Julius Africanus, who taught that the seventieth week was already fulfilled. But his comments are significant to this discussion because, like modern Dispensationalists, he taught the concept of calculating the seventy weeks on the basis of “Hebrew years.”

The prophet Jeremiah had foretold of a New Covenant with Israel and Judah, before the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel Gabriel appeared to give the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant.

Daniel 9:24 is a summary of the 70 weeks prophecy.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do we find any of the summary above fulfilled in the New Testament?

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
(The above comes from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel failed to even mention the New Covenant in Daniel chapter 9?

Are we to believe that the covenant with many in Daniel 9:27 is in no way related to the covenant with many in Matthew 26:28?

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

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A failure to recognize the New Covenant has produced tremendous confusion in the modern Church.

Why do some here fail to ever acknowledge the New Covenant and others claim it is not now in effect?

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Douggg said:

How so Dave? The armies would have surrounded Jerusalem first. That would have been the signal to flee.

Any desecration of the temple would have come after the Romans had killed the huge number who did not flee. Which would have meant fleeing at that point, after the Romans had slaughtered the Jews, would not make any sense.

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Josephus reports that sects of Jews within the city also committed atrocities in and around the temple as they zealously fought to control the same

Dave L said:

“He [Jesus] will confirm a covenant [the New Covenant] with many for one week. But in the middle of that [70th] week he will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt [offering himself as the atonement for sin, thereby abolishing the Old Covenant]. On the wing of abominations will come one who destroys, [Titus] until the decreed end is poured out [Rome's fall] on the one who destroys.”” (Daniel 9:27)

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How do you get verse 27 from three sentences?
The translation (?) you are using has altered the meaning of the text.

The KJV says "and" and your version says "but" - which convey two different meanings.

Also your version (the ESV) has two separate persons in the three sentences. The KJV has it as being one person throughout.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Obviously the consummation of the seventy weeks haven't happen yet, because Jerusalem hasn't embraced Jesus to bring in everlasting righteousness, part of the Daniel 9 prophecy for Jerusalem and Daniel's people.

The reason I know the ESV translation is wrong dividing Daniel 9:27 up into two persons is because the little horn person in the end times commits the transgression of desolation which stops the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8. The vision of him stopping the daily sacrifice - it is said to be end times in the text. Daniel 9:27 is not about Jesus stopping the daily sacrifice.

And in Daniel 7, it is during the little horn's time, the Kingdom of Heaven comes to earth; the little horn's dominion and kingdom destroyed. Daniel 7:25-27.

The little horn, the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, the son of perdition, the lawless one, the willful king, the beast - it is all the same person.

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Eschatology is repetitive.

Minor climaxes prefigure subsequent major events.

Easy to become confused.

70 AD could have been one Theophany, a showing of Divine Presence coming in Judgement.

Rev 19 is another "second coming like event", ending the early Church's "spiritual wilderness wanderings" and bringing them into the "spiritual Promised Land" = Millennium (Justinian built the Hagia Sophia right about the time that some expected the physical temple to be rebuilt)

Rev 20 is the full final Second Coming on the Great White Throne with God the Father

everybody posting in this thread has some valid points... and all could be mutually accommodated, by recognizing the repetitive schedule of Eschatology, with some valid points better applied to the minor prefigurations, and other valid points better applied to the major climaxes