How do you get saved?

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
Again, can you name one Biblical scholar who believes the Law of Moses applies to all mankind? I doubt it - just the one text from the end of Romans 3 basically proves that Paul, at least, believes the Law of Moses only applies to the Jew.

The fact that I cannot name one (other than myself) does not mean that they don't exist...for one thing, I spend the majority of my time reading the Bible itself...not what scholars have to say about it; and therefore I do not have an extensive knowledge of everything that Bible scholars have to say...and neither do you. I rely on the Holy Spirit to give me His interpretation...and also, as I said before, you have not read every commentary ever written, and therefore you cannot say with absolute certainty than not one of all biblical scholars who ever lived agrees with my position. Not to mention man is not the final authority on the word of God, but God and the word itself is the final authority.

How is it that you don't see that Romans 3:20 and 1 John 3:4 say so very clearly, that sin is defined by the law of God?

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
It is a little hard to believe that you do not understand what Paul is saying.

1. Paul starts by claiming that justification is not achieved through the Law of Moses;
2. He then "or is God the God of Jews only", and then says "no, God is the God of Gentiles also.

The logic is inescapable: if justification were by the Law of Moses, then only Jews could be saved and God would indeed be "God of Jews only". This statement only makes sense if Paul believes that only Jews are under the Law of Moses.

I still don't see it. And I would also point out that also in the end of Romans 3, is the statement that we do not make void the law of God through faith; yea, we establish it.

No. Again your logic has a problem. The fact that the Law leads the Jew to Christ does not mean that a Gentile could not come to Christ unless that Gentile were under the Law - you assume that the only pathway for a human being to come to Christ is via the Law of Moses. I see nothing in scripture to support such a view.

It is frankly absurd to say that someone living in South America during Old Testament times was under the Law of Moses. How could such a person even know of the existence of the Law of Moses? And even if you are going to say they are made aware of it through divine revelation, how are they going to offer sacrifices in the Temple in Jerusalem, as the Law of Moses requires.

Once again: no Biblical scholar believes the Law of Moses applies to non-Jews! At most, one can argue that the general moral principles that undergird the Law of Moses are made known to all humanity by God. But the Law of Moses contains much more than moral principles - it prescribes, for example, that certain types of cloth cannot be mixed and that certain foods are unclean.

So you're saying that you think the law is merely a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ, not the schoolmaster. That is like saying that Jesus is a way to salvation; this is not biblical.

The schoolmaster to lead men to Christ, biblically, is the law of God. How else can one come to know that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour? Does not God use the law of God exclusively to do this (Psalms 19:7, Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:24-25)?

I have to say that in my opinion, it is highly unorthodox to say that a person can come to this knowledge (that he is a sinner) apart from the law of God. By the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20. It does not there say that a man can receive the knowledge of sin any other way.

People who don't have the law of God are like those in the days of the judges of Israel...they do everything according to what is right in their own eyes (Judges 20:25). And this means that they go based on standards of morality that they themselves determine, which in every case would be less holy of a standard than the law itself. Therefore they also might think that they are perfectly moral and upright, based on the standard of righteousness that they themselves dictate; and might say, "I am not a sinner...I do everything according to the dictates of my own conscience...I am perfectly moral and upright." while their conscience might tell them that they can fornicate, for example, and that they are doing nothing wrong; While the word of the Lord would tell them that to do so would keep them from entering into the kingdom of God.

So then, they do not see themselves as sinners because they don't have that schoolmaster...and therefore when faced with the opportunity to receive Christ as the remedy for sin, they don't think they need Him...because they don't think of themselves as sinners.

Therefore the law is the schoolmaster to lead men to Christ...and not just a way that they can come to this knowledge (that they are sinners in need of a Saviour).

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2018

deleted: repeated post.

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
You are making an assumption that cannot be squared with Biblical teaching. I agree that the believer (the person who is "in Christ") is not under the Law of Moses. But that does not mean that all people who are not "in Christ" are under the Law of Moses - the one does not follow logically from the other.

Sure it does...those who are not in Christ are those who are "of the works of the law."

There are only two ways prescribed in the Bible by which a man can be saved: 1) by grace through faith; and 2) by works, which would require absolute perfection from conception into eternity (Matthew 5:48, Galatians 3:10, James 2:10),

Those therefore who are not saved by grace through faith are therefore "of the works of the law" and are under the curse, because they don't continue in all things that are written in the law to do them (Galatians 3:10).

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
You are "begging the question" - simply assuming that Jesus intended to be taken literally. In proper discussion, you can't do that; you need to actually make a case to support your view. For my part, I pointed out that there is a Biblical tradition of using metaphorical "end of the world" language to refer to events that have nothing to do with the literal end of the world. You are free to ask me to support that part of my argument.

But you cannot simply declare, without supporting argument, that Jesus is speaking literally. At least not if you intend to debate the matter responsibly.

I can do that and I did... and you can take it or leave it, my friend (but please take into account Hebrews 3:15 before you leave it). Did not Jesus Himself speak with authority and not as the scribes? And He is the example that I follow (1 Peter 2:21-22).

Also, I do not believe that debating is something the Lord would have us do...in fact, the Bible teaches that it is not a righteous thing, to debate (Romans 1:29, 2 Corinthians 12:20). We must, of course, contend for the faith...but we are to do this not in the spirit of debate but in the spirit of meekness, gently correcting those that oppose themselves (2 Timothy 2:24-25).

Bible2+ · Jul 15, 2018

justbyfaith said in post #179:

He says clearly that every letter of the law is still valid for today (i.e. one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from it).

Matthew 5:18 did not mean that heaven and earth had to pass away before the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments could be abolished, but that Jesus Christ had to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming (Luke 24:44-46; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53) before He could abolish the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (for both Jews and Gentiles, of all times) on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

Jesus Christ shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife is not a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

Jesus Christ also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while His New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed His disciples to work on the sabbath, and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus Himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

So in obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

justbyfaith said in post #179:

Now in the New Testament we are not required to keep His commandments for salvation . . .

We are required to keep His New Covenant commandments for ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8).

justbyfaith said in post #179:

Now in the New Testament we are not required to keep His commandments for salvation, such as the Old Testament food laws (1 Timothy 4:1-6) . . .

Under the New Covenant, all foods are in themselves okay for all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, to eat (1 Timothy 4:4-5, Romans 14:14,20, Mark 7:18-19; 1 Corinthians 10:25-30, Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 9:10). For under the New Covenant, no meat is defiled in itself (Romans 14:14). All meats are pure (Romans 14:20). Every meat is good, and no meat is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving to God, for it is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer (1 Timothy 4:4-5). Let no one therefore judge you regarding what meat you eat (Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 9:10). For the Kingdom of God does not consist of what meat we eat, or do not eat, but consists of righteousness, peace, and joy in God's Holy Spirit (Romans 14:17). Happy are those Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, who do not condemn themselves over what meat they eat (Romans 14:22). For no meat can defile them (Mark 7:18-19).

justbyfaith said in post #179:

He works within me both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

But He does not take away free will, turning Christians into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

*******

justbyfaith said in post #194:

The only way that the law has come to an end is in that, because we are forgiven through the blood of Christ of past, present, and future sins, the law no longer has the power to condemn us (because we are in Christ).

We will not be forgiven for future sins until we repent from them and confess them to God (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 John 1:9).

For example, James 5:19-20 is addressing "brethren" Christians, telling them that if any of them wanders away from the truth, and falls back into a course of sinful living, and then a fellow Christian succeeds in exhorting that sinful Christian to repent from his sin (Hebrews 3:13), the second Christian will save the first from ultimately losing his salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

To "save a soul from death" (James 5:19-20) means to save a soul from eternal suffering in hell (Matthew 10:28, Hebrews 10:39).

*******

justbyfaith said in post #202:

. . . in the end of Romans 3, is the statement that we do not make void the law of God through faith; yea, we establish it.

Romans 3:31 means that Christians establish the Old Covenant Mosaic law not in its letter, but in its spirit (Romans 7:6), by loving others (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Matthew 7:12).

*******

justbyfaith said in post #204:

...those who are not in Christ are those who are "of the works of the law."

If by "the law" you mean the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, those who are "of the works of the law" would apply only to Orthodox Jews and Messianic Christians. For other Jews, just as Gentiles, do not even try to follow the works of that law.

Also, the future Antichrist, for example, will be lawless. For the original Greek word (anomos: G0459) translated as "Wicked" in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 means "lawless".

Also, one of the key works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was physical circumcision, which even some Christians think that they need to fulfill.

But the Bible says that whether or not someone is physically circumcised does not matter to Christians (Colossians 3:11, Galatians 6:15, Galatians 5:6). Instead, the only circumcision which matters is the spiritual circumcision (Philippians 3:3) of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Colossians 2:11-13).

If Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, get physically circumcised thinking that they have to (Acts 15:1,5), because it was commanded to Abraham (Genesis 17:10), and was part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Leviticus 12:3), then Christ will profit them nothing (Galatians 5:2). They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4), and have placed themselves under the curse of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

Under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, physical circumcision was required for a male, whether Jew or Gentile, whether infant or adult, to become part of Israel (Exodus 12:48). But under the New Covenant, physical circumcision is not required for a Jew or Gentile to become part of Israel. All that is required is faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). This is one of the ways in which the New Covenant is not according to the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:32). The letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished on Jesus' Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6).

Also, unlike the abolished physical circumcision of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the spiritual circumcision of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29) makes no distinction between males and females (Galatians 3:28-29).

Also, under the New Covenant, a non-Christian, genetic Jew, even though he may be physically circumcised, is spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so spiritually is not a Jew (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). He has been broken off in spirit from the good olive tree of Israel, the genetic Jews' own tree (Romans 11:20,24). Yet he will be grafted in again if he comes into faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 11:23-32), who is Himself a Jew (John 4:9,22, Luke 2:21).

justbyfaith said in post #204:

There are only two ways prescribed in the Bible by which a man can be saved: 1) by grace through faith; and 2) by works, which would require absolute perfection from conception into eternity (Matthew 5:48, Galatians 3:10, James 2:10) . . .

No, for if we mess up and commit a sin, there is provision for our forgiveness if we repent (1 John 1:9).

But works (not of the Mosaic law) are still required for ultimate salvation:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It is initial salvation which is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Blood Bought 1953 · Jul 15, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Matthew 5:18 did not mean that heaven and earth had to pass away before the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments could be abolished, but that Jesus Christ had to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming (Luke 24:44-46; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53) before He could abolish the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (for both Jews and Gentiles, of all times) on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

Jesus Christ shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife is not a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

Jesus Christ also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while His New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed His disciples to work on the sabbath, and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus Himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

So in obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

We are required to keep His New Covenant commandments for ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8).

Under the New Covenant, all foods are in themselves okay for all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, to eat (1 Timothy 4:4-5, Romans 14:14,20, Mark 7:18-19; 1 Corinthians 10:25-30, Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 9:10). For under the New Covenant, no meat is defiled in itself (Romans 14:14). All meats are pure (Romans 14:20). Every meat is good, and no meat is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving to God, for it is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer (1 Timothy 4:4-5). Let no one therefore judge you regarding what meat you eat (Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 9:10). For the Kingdom of God does not consist of what meat we eat, or do not eat, but consists of righteousness, peace, and joy in God's Holy Spirit (Romans 14:17). Happy are those Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, who do not condemn themselves over what meat they eat (Romans 14:22). For no meat can defile them (Mark 7:18-19).

But He does not take away free will, turning Christians into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

*******

We will not be forgiven for future sins until we repent from them and confess them to God (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 John 1:9).

For example, James 5:19-20 is addressing "brethren" Christians, telling them that if any of them wanders away from the truth, and falls back into a course of sinful living, and then a fellow Christian succeeds in exhorting that sinful Christian to repent from his sin (Hebrews 3:13), the second Christian will save the first from ultimately losing his salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

To "save a soul from death" (James 5:19-20) means to save a soul from eternal suffering in hell (Matthew 10:28, Hebrews 10:39).

*******

Romans 3:31 means that Christians establish the Old Covenant Mosaic law not in its letter, but in its spirit (Romans 7:6), by loving others (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Matthew 7:12).

*******

If by "the law" you mean the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, those who are "of the works of the law" would apply only to Orthodox Jews and Messianic Christians. For other Jews, just as Gentiles, do not even try to follow the works of that law.

Also, the future Antichrist, for example, will be lawless. For the original Greek word (anomos: G0459) translated as "Wicked" in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 means "lawless".

Also, one of the key works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was physical circumcision, which even some Christians think that they need to fulfill.

But the Bible says that whether or not someone is physically circumcised does not matter to Christians (Colossians 3:11, Galatians 6:15, Galatians 5:6). Instead, the only circumcision which matters is the spiritual circumcision (Philippians 3:3) of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Colossians 2:11-13).

If Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, get physically circumcised thinking that they have to (Acts 15:1,5), because it was commanded to Abraham (Genesis 17:10), and was part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Leviticus 12:3), then Christ will profit them nothing (Galatians 5:2). They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4), and have placed themselves under the curse of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

Under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, physical circumcision was required for a male, whether Jew or Gentile, whether infant or adult, to become part of Israel (Exodus 12:48). But under the New Covenant, physical circumcision is not required for a Jew or Gentile to become part of Israel. All that is required is faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). This is one of the ways in which the New Covenant is not according to the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:32). The letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished on Jesus' Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6).

Also, unlike the abolished physical circumcision of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the spiritual circumcision of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29) makes no distinction between males and females (Galatians 3:28-29).

Also, under the New Covenant, a non-Christian, genetic Jew, even though he may be physically circumcised, is spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so spiritually is not a Jew (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). He has been broken off in spirit from the good olive tree of Israel, the genetic Jews' own tree (Romans 11:20,24). Yet he will be grafted in again if he comes into faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 11:23-32), who is Himself a Jew (John 4:9,22, Luke 2:21).

No, for if we mess up and commit a sin, there is provision for our forgiveness if we repent (1 John 1:9).

But works (not of the Mosaic law) are still required for ultimate salvation:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It is initial salvation which is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

This religion you have created is very complicated.....I would strongly urge those looking for salvation according to our latest instructions given to Paul by Christ Himself to simply believe the Gospel found in 1 cor15:1-4......it is what God is going to ask you about when you stand before Him.....He’s going to be VERY interested to see if you have added to it which is what you find on display here —- a recipe for damnation if there ever was one.Adding to the Gospel perverts it and makes you “ accursed”. Be careful with what you do with it.

justbyfaith · Jul 15, 2018

Bible2+ said:
No, for if we mess up and commit a sin, there is provision for our forgiveness if we repent (1 John 1:9).

If you are putting your trust in your works to save you, then you must continue in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them (Galatians 3:10). Otherwise you are accursed (see also Matthew 7:22-23).

expos4ever · Jul 15, 2018

justbyfaith said:
If you are putting your trust in your works to save you, then you must continue in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them (Galatians 3:10)

1. The Law of Moses is only for Jews (you deny this, but there is universal, if not near universal agreement among scholars to this effect). And, frankly, it is obvious to the Biblically literate layperson as well.

2. Galatians 3:10 is about the Law of Moses - not "good works" in general. Paul is talking about the Jew and his relation to the Law of Moses; he is not talking about human beings in general.

3. In Romans 2:6-7, Paul affirms that good deeds are indeed necessary for salvation (although I, and likely others here, are happy to say that these works are evidence of what really saves - faith).

justbyfaith · Jul 15, 2018

expos4ever said:
1. The Law of Moses is only for Jews (you deny this, but there is universal, if not near universal agreement among scholars to this effect). And, frankly, it is obvious to the Biblically literate layperson as well.

2. Galatians 3:10 is about the Law of Moses - not "good works" in general. Paul is talking about the Jew and his relation to the Law of Moses; he is not talking about human beings in general.

3. In Romans 2:6-7, Paul affirms that good deeds are indeed necessary for salvation (although I, and likely others here, are happy to say that these works are evidence of what really saves - faith).

Wrong.

Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, and Matthew 5:48 show clearly that if anyone puts their trust in their own works to save them, they must live a perfect life according to the precepts of the law of God (even the law of Moses) from conception to eternity.

It is clear from Ephesians 2:9 and its context that salvation is not of works; whether initial or ultimate salvation, salvation is not of works.

It is simply gospel truth that people who put their trust in their works to save them are under the law and condemned by the law.

The only way, to not be condemned by the law of God is to place your trust in Jesus Christ for your salvation (John 14:6).

justbyfaith · Jul 15, 2018

expos4ever said:
The Law of Moses is only for Jews (you deny this, but there is universal, if not near universal agreement among scholars to this effect).

I do not need the testimony of biblical scholars to testify that the law of Moses defines sin for all of us; I have the testimony of the Bible itself (in Romans 3:20 and in 1 John 3:4). These scriptures clearly proclaim that sin is defined as the transgression of the law and that we have the knowledge of sin through the law; in other words, the law defines for us what sin is: it is to violate the law of God (that He gave to Moses).

So I would say, scholars, shmolars. I will go with what the word of God says over your trusted scholars (Psalms 118:8-9).

Bible2+ · Jul 16, 2018

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #207:

I would strongly urge those looking for salvation according to our latest instructions given to Paul by Christ Himself to simply believe the Gospel found in 1 cor15:1-4...

Amen.

But note that Paul also said that we need works for ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8), just as Jesus Himself said that (Matthew 7:21), and other disciples of Jesus said that (James 2:24).

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #207:

Adding to the Gospel perverts it and makes you "accursed".

Are you thinking of the following verse?

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

If so, this verse if often quoted at Judaizers.

But Galatians 1:8 by itself applies to more than Judaizers. For by itself it applies to any other gospel. But, in its context, it is immediately addressing the specific, other gospel which the Galatian Christians had fallen prey to in the apostle Paul's time in the first century AD (Galatians 1:6-7, Galatians 5:1-12).

While Paul was not a Judaizer in the sense of requiring physical circumcision or any other works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, he was a Judaizer in that he taught that all Christians, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13). Also, Paul did not contradict that Christians' obeying Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 15:10) to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8) is them obeying the commandments of a Jew (John 4:9,22b). Also, Paul taught that all Gentile Christians are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask God which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into by God, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #207:

Adding to the Gospel perverts it and makes you "accursed".

Note that the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in its widest sense, includes much more than just 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. That is why the first four books of the New Testament are called "the Gospels", and why the Gospel of Mark can say that the Gospel begins with Mark 1:1. And so the Gospel can include everything in the Gospels, including their eschatological teachings (e.g. Mark 13). And if the Gospel can include New Testament eschatological teachings, then it can include the eschatological book of Revelation, and all of the apostle Paul's eschatological teachings, as well as his soteriological teachings, which he rightly claims are based on Old Testament prophecies (Acts 26:22-23). This is why Christians hold to the entire Bible as being vital to Christian faith (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, John 8:31b, Matthew 4:4).

The best way to study the Bible, as a whole, is simply to read every word of it (Matthew 4:4), over and over again. It ends up explaining itself once what it teaches has become engrained in your memory, and you see the connections between verses regarding something in one place in the Bible and other verses regarding that same thing in other places in the Bible. It is by comparing and combining related verses in different places in the Bible that we arrive at correct doctrine (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

It is also a good practice to always start and end each Bible-reading session with a prayer for understanding and remembrance of the whole Bible.

One great way to read the whole Bible, over and over, is to think of it as seven volumes:

1. Genesis to Deuteronomy
2. Joshua to Esther
3. Job to Song of Solomon
4. Isaiah to Malachi
5. Matthew to Acts
6. Romans to Philemon
7. Hebrews to Revelation

You can read a chapter in each volume every day. This will keep you current in every part of the Bible. After a while, there will not be any part that you have not read recently enough to remember what it teaches. When you reach the end of a volume, simply start again at the first chapter of that volume. In this way, you will be cycling through smaller volumes like #6 and #7 much more often than larger volumes like #2, but the smaller volumes are so much more dense with doctrine that it is profitable to read them over and over more often.

Also, you can listen to recordings of people reading the Bible out loud whenever you need to keep your eyes on something else while you listen (such as keeping your eyes on the road while you are driving, or on a cutting board while you are preparing food, or on your clippers while you are trimming a hedge). In this way, you can listen to the Bible throughout the day, whenever you don't need to be thinking about something else (such as at your workplace or school). Also, you can listen to the Bible even while you are going to sleep, so that it will become part of even your subconscious mind.

Bible2+ · Jul 16, 2018

justbyfaith said in post #208:

If you are putting your trust in your works to save you, then you must continue in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them (Galatians 3:10).

Not at all, for that law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16).

The works that save us (James 2:24) are works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

justbyfaith said in post #208:

Otherwise you are accursed (see also Matthew 7:22-23).

That refers to Christians who rightly had works, but they at the same time also wrongly had some unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29).

justbyfaith · Jul 16, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Not at all, for that law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16).

Not for the one whose faith is not in Jesus Christ, but in their own works.

justbyfaith · Jul 16, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Amen.

But note that Paul also said that we need works for ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8), just as Jesus Himself said that (Matthew 7:21), and other disciples of Jesus said that (James 2:24).

Are you thinking of the following verse?

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

If so, this verse if often quoted at Judaizers.

But Galatians 1:8 by itself applies to more than Judaizers. For by itself it applies to any other gospel. But, in its context, it is immediately addressing the specific, other gospel which the Galatian Christians had fallen prey to in the apostle Paul's time in the first century AD (Galatians 1:6-7, Galatians 5:1-12).

While Paul was not a Judaizer in the sense of requiring physical circumcision or any other works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, he was a Judaizer in that he taught that all Christians, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13). Also, Paul did not contradict that Christians' obeying Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 15:10) to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8) is them obeying the commandments of a Jew (John 4:9,22b). Also, Paul taught that all Gentile Christians are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask God which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into by God, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Note that the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in its widest sense, includes much more than just 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. That is why the first four books of the New Testament are called "the Gospels", and why the Gospel of Mark can say that the Gospel begins with Mark 1:1. And so the Gospel can include everything in the Gospels, including their eschatological teachings (e.g. Mark 13). And if the Gospel can include New Testament eschatological teachings, then it can include the eschatological book of Revelation, and all of the apostle Paul's eschatological teachings, as well as his soteriological teachings, which he rightly claims are based on Old Testament prophecies (Acts 26:22-23). This is why Christians hold to the entire Bible as being vital to Christian faith (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, John 8:31b, Matthew 4:4).

The best way to study the Bible, as a whole, is simply to read every word of it (Matthew 4:4), over and over again. It ends up explaining itself once what it teaches has become engrained in your memory, and you see the connections between verses regarding something in one place in the Bible and other verses regarding that same thing in other places in the Bible. It is by comparing and combining related verses in different places in the Bible that we arrive at correct doctrine (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

It is also a good practice to always start and end each Bible-reading session with a prayer for understanding and remembrance of the whole Bible.

One great way to read the whole Bible, over and over, is to think of it as seven volumes:

1. Genesis to Deuteronomy
2. Joshua to Esther
3. Job to Song of Solomon
4. Isaiah to Malachi
5. Matthew to Acts
6. Romans to Philemon
7. Hebrews to Revelation

You can read a chapter in each volume every day. This will keep you current in every part of the Bible. After a while, there will not be any part that you have not read recently enough to remember what it teaches. When you reach the end of a volume, simply start again at the first chapter of that volume. In this way, you will be cycling through smaller volumes like #6 and #7 much more often than larger volumes like #2, but the smaller volumes are so much more dense with doctrine that it is profitable to read them over and over more often.

Also, you can listen to recordings of people reading the Bible out loud whenever you need to keep your eyes on something else while you listen (such as keeping your eyes on the road while you are driving, or on a cutting board while you are preparing food, or on your clippers while you are trimming a hedge). In this way, you can listen to the Bible throughout the day, whenever you don't need to be thinking about something else (such as at your workplace or school). Also, you can listen to the Bible even while you are going to sleep, so that it will become part of even your subconscious mind.

My reading scheme is slightly different. i read through all of the epistles in one week's time, gospels, Acts, and Revelation in about a month's time, and through the Old Testament about two times every three years, and a little more.

In the New Testament, I read it as follows:

in the epistles:

day 1: 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, John 6:35, 4:13-14, 7:37-39, 6:47, 5:24, 8:31-36, 11:25-27 in preparation for James; then Romans 2:24-the end of chapter 8, Hebrews 10, and Jude.

day 2: Romans

day 3: 1 Corinthians

day 4: 2 Corintihans

day 5: Galatians - Colossians, Revelation 1:17 to the end of chapter 3.

day 6: 1 Thessalonians - Philemon

day 7: Hebrews.

In the gospels, I go from Matthew-Luke, 4 chapters a day, then through John, 3 chapters a day, Acts, 4 chapters a day, Revelation, 5 chapters the first two days and 6 chapters the second two days, or 3-4 chapters a day.

In the Old Testament, I divide it into seven sections, and read 1 chapter a day:

1. The Pentateuch (Genesis - Deuteronomy)

2. The historical books 1 (Joshua - 2 Kings)

3. The historical books 2 (1 Chronicles - Esther)

4. Job

5. Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon

6. Major prophets (Isaiah - Daniel)

7. Minor prophets (Hosea-Malachi)

It may seem more complicated or extensive but you can get the hang of it. Of course, you need about 2-3 hours each day reading your Bible. If you like to read the word this is good. If you have trouble reading you can cut it down as you see fit.

But the way I do it, I read through all the epistles once a week which I like. I get a full course meal in New Testament doctrine every day; and in one week I get the whole counsel of God concerning epistelic doctrine.

justbyfaith · Jul 16, 2018

I almost forgot to add: I read five chapters a day in two sections of Psalms (a total of ten chapters each day, five in Psalm 1-75, and five in Psalm 76-150). And 1 chapter a day in two sections of Proverbs (1-15 and 16-30) based on the day of the month (if it is the 31st I take a break and read one chapter in Proverbs, 31, and don't read in the Psalms that day).

Even with all of that, it still only takes 2-3 hours a day. I recommend this course of reading for any pastor. It will revolutionize your preaching.

Bible2+ · Jul 16, 2018

justbyfaith said in post #214:

Not for the one whose faith is not in Jesus Christ, but in their own works.

The old law was abolished for everybody (Hebrews 7:18).

But Christians do need to have works of faith (Galatians 5:6b) to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

Also, they cannot perform these works apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (John 15:5b).

justbyfaith · Jul 16, 2018

Hebrews 7:18 does not teach that the law was abolished for everyone. Not one jot or one tittle shall pass away from the law until heaven and earth pass away. That is what the word of the Lord says (Matthew 5:17-20). If you teach men to break one of the least of these commandments in the law of the Old Testament (which you are doing) you will be called the least in the kingdom if you even enter in. By the law is the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), and sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). The law has its place in our daily lives. It is written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4-7). We do not make void the law through faith; rather we establish it (Romans 3:31). The law defines sin for us (Romans 3:20 and 1 John 3:4). We sin any time we violate anything in the law of God, which He gave to Moses (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10).

Galatians 5:6b teaches that faith worketh by love. In biblical doctrine, we obtain the love of God through faith. The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost and through faith (Romans 5:1-5, Galatians 3:14). Love in the heart is the result of a living and saving faith. And of course the love of God is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

That being said, we are not saved by the works that come out of love (Ephesians 2:9 and context, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 4:5 and context, Romans 11:5-6); but by the faith that produces the love that manifests itself in works.

It is that the root is planted firmly in good soil, that the plant is saved and even able to bear good fruit. Good fruit is the evidence that the plant is planted firmly in good soil. But the plant is saved through being planted, not by the bearing of its fruit.

This means that in seeking salvation, we do not think that we can obtain salvation by doing some good deed, like giving to the poor (Matthew 7:22-23). The only way to obtain salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone; and works of faith will surely follow. The inside of the cup and dish will be cleansed because of faith in Jesus Christ, rather than merely having the outside cleansed through attempting to earn my salvation by doing some kind of good work.

And I agree with the part about abiding. Most assuredly, apart from Him we can do nothing. We must be connected as branches to the vine; or in the other, similar analogy, planted firmly in good soil so that we can draw up nourishment from the good soil (or the vine in the first analogy).

In other words, if I am nourished through being connected to the source of nourishment, I am abiding and will produce good fruit, which in the long run amounts to good works (Titus 3:14). I am not saved through the fact that I bear the fruit of good works; but because I am nourished from the source.

Bible2+ · Jul 17, 2018

justbyfaith said in post #218:

Hebrews 7:18 does not teach that the law was abolished for everyone.

It does, because of its weakness and unprofitableness.

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), while the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices for sin (Leviticus 23:19), while the New Covenant replaced these with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself on the Cross (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:21-25). So those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, Abraham's son by a bondmaid (Galatians 4:22), who was cast out (Galatians 4:30), while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:28), Abraham's son by a freewoman (Galatians 4:22,31), who became his heir (Galatians 4:30b).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, including the letter of its Ten Commandments, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8.

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been completely and forever done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it is still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), while the New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8-9b), which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits Christians to remove the veil, and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even some Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law to be saved from hell (Acts 15:1,5), or to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any Christians are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law thinking that they must do so to be saved from hell, or to become perfect, then Jesus Christ will profit them nothing. They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

justbyfaith said in post #218:

Not one jot or one tittle shall pass away from the law until heaven and earth pass away.

Matthew 5:18 did not mean that heaven and earth had to pass away before the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments could be abolished, but that Jesus Christ had to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming (Luke 24:44-46; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53) before He could abolish the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (for both Jews and Gentiles, of all times) on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

justbyfaith said in post #218:

If you teach men to break one of the least of these commandments in the law of the Old Testament (which you are doing) you will be called the least in the kingdom . . .

Matthew 5:19-20 refers to the New Covenant/New Testament commandments/sayings (Matthew 5:19, Matthew 7:24-29) which Jesus, as the Christ (Matthew 5:17b, Luke 24:44-46), was just about to give in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and which New Covenant commandments "exceed in righteousness" (Matthew 5:20 to 7:29) the (now) abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was kept by the Pharisees. Compare what the apostle Paul says about himself in Philippians 3:5-14.

justbyfaith said in post #218:

We do not make void the law through faith; rather we establish it (Romans 3:31).

Romans 3:31 means that Christians establish the Old Covenant Mosaic law not in its letter, but in its spirit (Romans 7:6), by loving others (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Matthew 7:12).

justbyfaith said in post #218:

The law defines sin for us (Romans 3:20 and 1 John 3:4).

Christians cannot sin without repentance and expect to be saved in the end (Hebrews 10:26-29). But they can never keep from sinning by trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For it will only cause them to sin more (Romans 7:7-11, Romans 6:14). Instead, by God's Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16, Romans 8:13), Christians keep the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:2, John 14:15, Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 8:6-13, Matthew 26:28), which forbids all manner of sin to those who want to be saved in the end (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).

justbyfaith said in post #218:

. . . we are not saved by the works that come out of love . . .

Not initially (Ephesians 2:8-9), but ultimately (James 2:24).

justbyfaith said in post #218:

But the plant is saved through being planted, not by the bearing of its fruit.

It's both.

For John 15:2a refers to Christians, who are branches in the vine of Jesus Christ, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from Him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

justbyfaith said in post #218:

This means that in seeking salvation, we do not think that we can obtain salvation by doing some good deed, like giving to the poor (Matthew 7:22-23).

Matthew 7:21-23 shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for Christians to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). But, because of free will, there is no assurance that Christians will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole, like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole. For Matthew 7:22 could refer to Christians, believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance, they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that is one of the signs that people are Christians, believers in the Gospel (Mark 16:17). People must be careful not to fall into the unforgivable presumption of Mark 3:22-30.

justbyfaith said in post #218:

The only way to obtain salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone; and works of faith will surely follow.

Initial salvation by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5) does not automatically produce good works. That is why Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and why it is possible for Christians to wrongly employ their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

justbyfaith said in post #218:

I am not saved through the fact that I bear the fruit of good works; but because I am nourished from the source.

It's not either/or, but both/and (Hebrews 5:9).

justbyfaith · Jul 17, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Initial salvation by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5) does not automatically produce good works.

It does (Ezekiel 36:25-27, Philippians 2:13, Romans 5:5 w/ 1 John 3:17-18). Now I am not referring to a dead faith. Living faith will produce good works (James 1:21-2:26). When He gives us a new heart and a new spirit, it is so that He may cause us to walk in His statutes and in His judgments (Ezekiel 36:25-27). He works within me both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

Bible2+ said:
It does, because of its weakness and unprofitableness.

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), while the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices for sin (Leviticus 23:19), while the New Covenant replaced these with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself on the Cross (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:21-25). So those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, Abraham's son by a bondmaid (Galatians 4:22), who was cast out (Galatians 4:30), while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:28), Abraham's son by a freewoman (Galatians 4:22,31), who became his heir (Galatians 4:30b).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, including the letter of its Ten Commandments, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8.

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been completely and forever done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it is still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), while the New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8-9b), which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits Christians to remove the veil, and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even some Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law to be saved from hell (Acts 15:1,5), or to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any Christians are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law thinking that they must do so to be saved from hell, or to become perfect, then Jesus Christ will profit them nothing. They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

The only sense in which the Old Covenant law has been made obsolete is in that because we are forgiven of past, present, and future sin through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ, we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19)), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6); and therefore it no longer condemns us. It does not mean that we are no longer subject to the law in the way that we think (Romans 8:7). As New Covenant believers, the law is written on our hearts and in our minds (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4-7). And also, for the unbeliever, the law defines sin and calls them a sinner (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4); it shows them that they are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20, Psalms 19:7, Galatians 3:24-25), that they are not redeemed and that they have yet to make that step of surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Bible2+ said:
Matthew 5:18 did not mean that heaven and earth had to pass away before the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments could be abolished, but that Jesus Christ had to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming (Luke 24:44-46; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53) before He could abolish the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (for both Jews and Gentiles, of all times) on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

That is false teaching. All things have not been fulfilled. There are prophecies, for example, concerning the Antichrist that have not yet been fulfilled. And also, it is prophesied that heaven and earth will pass away, and this has not yet been fulfilled.

Matthew 5:17-19, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This passage is clearly talking about the law of God given to Moses. It is still valid and applies to the unbeliever today, showing him that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:24-25, Psalms 19:7). And also, the believer is subject in his mind to the law of God as given to Moses because he is spiritually-minded (Romans 8:7). It is written on his heart and on his mind (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4-7). I will say that the Old Testament sacrifices are fulfilled in Jesus being sacrificed as the antitype of these; but that if anyone rejects salvation through the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, they would be required by Old Testament law to sacrifice animals for atonement, which can never truly take away sins (Hebrews 10:4); because all those who do not have faith in Jesus Christ are under the law (Romans 3:9-19) and called sinners by the law.

Bible2+ said:
Matthew 5:19-20 refers to the New Covenant/New Testament commandments/sayings (Matthew 5:19, Matthew 7:24-29) which Jesus, as the Christ (Matthew 5:17b, Luke 24:44-46), was just about to give in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and which New Covenant commandments "exceed in righteousness" (Matthew 5:20 to 7:29) the (now) abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was kept by the Pharisees. Compare what the apostle Paul says about himself in Philippians 3:5-14.

"These least commandments" (Matthew 5:19) is referring to the Old Testament law and prophets, as defined by the context (in Matthew 5:17-18). The things Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount do not abolish the Old Covenant law, but each statement brings the Old Covenant law to become an issue of the heart. For example, if I am angry with my brother without a cause, I am violating the commandment "Thou shalt not murder." The commandment, "Thou shalt not murder" is therefore not abolished by Jesus' interpretation of it, but rather it is brought home to the heart, so that outward observance of the letter will no longer cut it. It makes the commandment "Thou shalt not murder" a spiritual law that applies to our very hearts and not just our behaviour. Therefore the Old Covenant law is not abolished by these statements.

And statements in the epistles where it seems to say that the law is abolished are really referring to the fact that the law no longer has the power to condemn us as believers, because we are forgiven. The law no longer condemns us from the outside (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19), and it is abolished in this sense. But it still governs us from the inside (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4-7); and it is not abolished in this sense. It is also not abolished in the sense that for the unbeliever, it tells him that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4, Galatians 3:24-25, Psalms 19:7).

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