Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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““But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Those who are inside the city must depart. Those who are out in the country must not enter it,” (Luke 21:20–21)
We all know that verse by no Dave.........

All 3 Gospels are concerning the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad...........including Revelation, for those with ears to hear and eyes to see......
Anyone that preaches any different is preaching a different Gospel of Christ.........

Matthew 24:1
And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the Temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the Temple,
Mark 13:1:

As Jesus was leaving the Temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, look at the magnificent stones and buildings!”
Luke 21:5
As some of the disciples were remarking how the Temple was adorned with beautiful stones and consecrated gifts, Jesus said,

Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!


Revelation 18:4:
And I hear another voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her the People of Me.
.....................

Another fact is, the Temple is never mentioned in Revelation.....only the Sanctuary, both of which were of course in Jerusalem....

Revelation 11:
1
And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse!/egeirai <1453> (5669) and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar[golden?] and those worshipping in it.....
2 and the Court that is without the Sanctuary be casting out! outside, and thou mayest not measure it,
because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months;


http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.............

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins;
 
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Dave L

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The point being, Dave, is that the instructions to flee in Luke 21:20-21 applied to 70 AD, before the Jews were scattered around the world, which everyone has witnessed.

During that same time, the gospel has been spread to the nations. And afterward, the Jews have returned to land of Israel, and have gained possession of Jerusalem again in the parable of the fig tree.

The instruction to flee in Matthew 24:15-16 apply to the end times generation, as that is when the abomination of desolation is referred to in Daniel 12.

It is EASY to see that Luke 21:20-21, applied to a generation involving Jerusalem only. While, differently, Matthew 24:15-16 involves the whole world not just Jerusalem.
This is pure conjecture and not founded on scripture. Jesus told believers to flee when they saw the armies. The unbelievers stayed and suffered the worst tribulation the world ever knew or would ever know. And the petty few survivors, the Pharisees were led captive into all nations.
 
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DavidPT

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This is pure conjecture and not founded on scripture. Jesus told believers to flee when they saw the armies. The unbelievers stayed and suffered the worst tribulation the world ever knew or would ever know. And the petty few survivors, the Pharisees were led captive into all nations.


So I guess what happened to the Jews in the days of Hitler, that was nothing in comparison to what happened to the Jews in 70 AD?
 
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Dave L

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So I guess what happened to the Jews in the days of Hitler, that was nothing in comparison to what happened to the Jews in 70 AD?
Read Josephus and make the call. The Jews ate their young while the Romans ripped open any trying to leave the city looking for gold they might have swallowed. There were so many crosses and crucifixions you could not count them.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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So I guess what happened to the Jews in the days of Hitler, that was nothing in comparison to what happened to the Jews in 70 AD?
I don't think we have a count of the number of Jews killed throughout all of Israel during the Romans war against the Jew between 66-73 ad but I would assume the percentage is quite higher than the Jews killed during the holocaust, making it no less horrible.

But during the battle against the Jews in Jerusalem and surrounding Judea, Josephus records over a million Jews perished which would probably be a substantial percentage of the Jews living at that time in Israel?
Dave L said:
““But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Those who are inside the city must depart. Those who are out in the country must not enter it,” (Luke 21:20–21)

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm
The Destruction of Jerusalem

Nero, having been informed of the defeat of Cestius, immediately appointed Vespasian, a man of tried valour, to prosecute the war against the Jews, who, assisted by his son Titus, soon collected at Ptolemais an. army of sixty thousand men. From hence, in the spring of 67 A. D. he marched into Judea, every where spreading the most cruel havoc and devastation ; the Roman soldiers, on various occasions, sparing neither infants nor the aged. For fifteen months Vespasian proceeded in this sanguinary career, during which period he reduced all the strong towns of Galilee, and the chief of those in Judea, destroying at least one hundred and fifty thousand of the inhabitants

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves.

Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.


........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves, [Deuteronomy 28:68]

or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10

If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.

Deuteronomy 28:68
“And Yahweh will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.'
And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”
[/quote]
 
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Douggg

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This is pure conjecture and not founded on scripture.
What part is conjecture? The fact is that the gospel has been spread to all the nations of the world over the past 2000 years. And in Daniel 12, containing the abomination of desolation, understanding of that prophecy has been sealed until the end times.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

There is no conjecture.

And in the text of Matthew 24, it involves the entire planet, not just Jerusalem.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

______________________________________________________________

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

"knew not" in the context of the end times, for the most part means "believe not".
 
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Dave L

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What part is conjecture? The fact is that the gospel has been spread to all the nations of the world over the past 2000 years. And in Daniel 12, containing the abomination of desolation, understanding of that prophecy has been sealed until the end times.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

There is no conjecture.

And in the text of Matthew 24, it involves the entire planet, not just Jerusalem.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
If you insert a gap into the 70 weeks, you make scripture lie. And all of your conjectures rest on this lie.
 
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Douggg

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If you insert a gap into the 70 weeks, you make scripture lie. And all of your conjectures rest on this lie.
If you do not insert the 2000 year gap into the 70 weeks to account for Jesus's first coming and His second coming - you make scripture a lie. And all of your conjectures rest on this lie.
 
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Biblewriter

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Should we let truth go, and not uphold it if it means "arguing"?
There is a distinct difference between respectful discussiont and childish argument.
 
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Dave L

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If you do not insert the 2000 year gap into the 70 weeks to account for Jesus's first coming and His second coming - you make scripture a lie. And all of your conjectures rest on this lie.
You are lying to do so. There is no gap. And Jesus is not antichrist as you make him out to be.
 
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Douggg

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You are lying to do so. There is no gap. And Jesus is not antichrist as you make him out to be.
You are lying to do so. There is a gap, the 70th week is separate. And Jesus is not the Antichrist as you make him out to be, as the prince who shall come.
 
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DavidPT

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You are lying to do so. There is no gap. And Jesus is not antichrist as you make him out to be.


It is you who are making Jesus out to be the AC because you are claiming the AC in Daniel 9:27 is meaning Jesus.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Do you not see the part I have underlined in that verse? That is connected with this part----and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

If Christ is meant in verse 27 there is zero involving His death that have anything to do with abominations. It is ludicrous to speak of Christ's death and resurrection, and abominations, within that same context. Anything involving Christ's death and resurrection don't belong in a context involving abominations. But if the AC is meant in verse 27 though, not an issue then.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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If you insert a gap into the 70 weeks, you make scripture lie. And all of your conjectures rest on this lie.
If you do not insert the 2000 year gap into the 70 weeks to account for Jesus's first coming and His second coming - you make scripture a lie. And all of your conjectures rest on this lie.
You are lying to do so. There is no gap. And Jesus is not antichrist as you make him out to be.
You are lying to do so. There is a gap, the 70th week is separate. And Jesus is not the Antichrist as you make him out to be, as the prince who shall come.

There is a distinct difference between respectful discussiont and childish argument.
I would think so, except, on the eschatology board ^_^
Still waiting for reply to this post:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-their-problems.8071615/page-41#post-72945704
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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So what has this thread accomplished so far? I mean, it is already 41 pages long, with what looks to be a lot of "hot air" and little substance.........
 
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Douggg

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I would think so, except, on the eschatology board ^_^
There are some bad habits by some posters in this forum that need to be broken. Maybe if they see their habits in a mirror... I'm retired and have plenty of time. 24/7. I can keep this up forever.
 
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Biblewriter

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None of the following brethren futurized the associated Matthew 24 verses, nor claimed that Luke spoke of a different event.

190AD Clement of Alexandria

(On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation) "We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away."


325AD Eusebius Pamphilius

Ecclesiastical History: (On Matthew 24:15) "--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus." (Book III, Ch. 5)


375AD John Chrysostom

Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:15) "And see how He relates the war, by the things that seem to be small setting forth how intolerable it was to be. For, "Then,"saith He, "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Then, When? When these things should be, "when the abomination of desolation should stand in the holy place." Whence He seems to me to be speaking of the armies." (Homily 76, Number 1)


John Calvin

Matthew 24:15
When you shall see the abomination of desolation. Because the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem, together with the overthrow of the whole Jewish government, was (as we have already said) a thing incredible, and because it might be thought strange, that the disciples could not be saved without being torn from that nation, to which had been committed the adoption and the covenant(Romans 9:4) of eternal salvation, Christ confirms both by the testimony of Daniel As if he had said, That you may not be too strongly attached to the temple and to the ceremonies of the Law, God has limited them to a fixed time, 136 and has long ago declared, that when the Redeemer should come, sacrifices would cease; and that it may not give you uneasiness to be cut off from your own nation, God has also forewarned his people, that in due time it would be rejected.


Adam Clarke

Matthew 24:15
The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luk 21:20, Luk 21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mar 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

Matthew 24:16
Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains - This counsel was remembered and wisely followed by the Christians afterwards. Eusebius and Epiphanius say, that at this juncture, after Cestius Gallus had raised the siege, and Vespasian was approaching with his army, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem and fled to Pella, and other places beyond the river Jordan; and so they all marvellously escaped the general shipwreck of their country: not one of them perished. See on Mat 24:13 (note).


Matthew Henry

Matthew 24:15
Here he comes more closely to answer their questions concerning the desolation of the temple; and what he said here, would be of use to his disciples, both for their conduct and for their comfort, in reference to that great event; he describes the several steps of that calamity, such as are usual in war.1. The Romans setting up the abomination of desolation in the holy place, v. 15. Now, (1.) Some understand by this an image, or statue, set up in the temple by some of the Roman governors, which was very offensive to the Jews, provoked them to rebel, and so brought the desolation upon them. The image of Jupiter Olympius, which Antiochus caused to be set upon the altar of God, is called Bdelygma eremoseos —The abomination of desolation, the very word here used by the historian, 1 Mac. 1:54 . Since the captivity in Babylon, nothing was, nor could be, more distasteful to the Jews than an image in the holy place, as appeared by the mighty opposition they made when Caligula offered to set up his statue there, which had been of fatal consequence, if it had not been prevented, and the matter accommodated, by the conduct of Petronius; but Herod did set up an eagle over the temple-gate; and, some say, the statue of Titus was set up in the temple. (2.) Others choose to expound it by the parallel place (Lu. 21:20 ),when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies. Jerusalem was the holy city, Canaan the holy land, the Mount Moriah, which lay about Jerusalem, for its nearness to the temple was, they thought in a particular manner holy ground; on the country lying round about Jerusalem the Roman army was encamped, that was the abomination that made desolate. The land of an enemy is said to be the land which thou abhorrest (Isa. 7:16 ); so an enemy’s army to a weak but wilful people may well be called the abomination.Now this is said to be spoken of by Daniel, the prophet, who spoke more plainly of the Messiah and his kingdom than any of the Old-Testament prophets did. He speaks of an abomination making desolate, which should be set up by Antiochus (Dan. 11:31Dan. 12:11 ); but this that our Saviour refers to, we have in the message that the angel brought him (Dan. 9:27 ), of what should come at the end of seventy weeks, long after the former; for the overspreading of abominations, or, as the margin reads it, with the abominable armies (which comes home to the prophecy here), he shall make it desolate.


John Wesley

Matthew 24:15-16
24:15
When ye see the abomination of desolation - Daniel's term is, The abomination that maketh desolate, Daniel 11:31 ; that is, the standards of the desolating legions, onwhich they bear the abominable images of their idols: Standing in the holy place - Not only the temple and the mountain on which it stood, but the whole city of Jerusalem, and several furlongs of land round about it, were accounted holy; particularly the mount on which our Lord now sat, and on which the Romans afterward planted their ensigns. He that readeth let him understand - Whoever reads that prophecy of Daniel, let him deeply consider it. 13:14 ; Luke 21:20; Dan 9:27.

24:16
Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains - So the Christians did, and were preserved. It is remarkable that after the Romans under Cestus Gallus made their first advances toward Jerusalem, they suddenly withdrew again, in a most unexpected and indeed impolitic manner. This the Christians took as a signal to retire, which they did, some to Pella, and others to Mount Libanus.


Charles Spurgeon

Matthew 24:15-18
This portion of our Savior’s words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ’s disciples saw “the abomination of desolation,” that is, the Roman ensigns with their idolatrous emblems, “stand in the holy place,” they knew that the time for them to escape had arrived—and they did “flee into the mountains.” The Christians in Jerusalem and the surrounding towns and villages “in Judaea,” availed themselves of the first opportunity for eluding the Roman armies, and fled to the mountain city of Pella, in Perea, where they were preserved from the general destruction which overthrew the Jews. There was no time to spare before the final investment of the guilty city. The man “on the housetop” could “not come down to take anything out of his house,” and the man “in the field” could not “return back to take his clothes.” They must flee to the mountains in the greatest haste, the moment that they saw “Jerusalem compassed with armies” (Luke 21:20).

It is flat out wrong to even imagine that the ancient writers you cited were the judgment of the ancient church, as such. I have, on file, seven typewritten pages of quotations from truly ancient writers that put the Abomination of Desolation into the distant future.

These writers included Irenaeus, whose "Against Heresies" was the most widely circulated non-inspired book in the early church, and Hippolytus, who is called "the Father of Latin Christianity," as well as Cyprian and an unknown writer claimed to be Clement of Rome but thought to actually have been Clement the brother of Domatian.

In addition, many other writers from later dates also said the same thing. So the list of later writers attached here is basically meaningless.
 
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Douggg

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So what has this thread accomplished so far? I mean, it is already 41 pages long, with what looks to be a lot of "hot air" and little substance.........
One of the things I have found in life to be a truism... you can't help (most) people... by trying to explain or suggest something to them. It doesn't bother me as much as it used to. So I have made some personal progress, I feel. Jesus is coming and His reward is with him.

Jesus himself was amazed that in spite of all he did - they would not believe Him.
 
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Biblewriter

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You are lying to do so. There is no gap.
Two things were to happen after the sixty-two week second part of the account of the seventy weeks . And we know that both of them indeed happened exactly as explicitly stated. “Messiah” would “be cut off,” and “the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Messiah was indeed cut off, and the city and the sanctuary were indeed destroyed. We know from history that these two events did not happen within a seven year period. Most historians feel that our calendar is in error, and the actual date of Jesus’ birth was 4 BC. Since Jesus lived thirty-three years, that puts his death in 29 A.D. But according to history, the city was not destroyed until 70 A.D., forty-one years after that. So even if there are small errors in the accepted dates of history, we absolutely know that “the city and the sanctuary” were not destroyed in the same week (seven year period) that our Lord was crucified. But we need to notice that both of these events are presented before the last week is even mentioned. So here we see an absolutely undeniable break in the scriptural account of the seventy weeks.
 
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Douggg

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LittleLambofJesus

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