Does this scripture refute OSAS? [Updated]

thesunisout

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I've been tossed between doctrines many times.
I come across scriptures that seem to support OSAS and some refute it.
I really want to stop being tossed and be justified by faith in Christ and not by the law, yet live holy before the Lord without saying is this getting me to heaven? But simply just knowing the truth... For example there's a scripture that talks about that some are ever-learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and I don't want that to be me...
Please explain to me if this supports OSAS somehow, or it simply refutes it.
The scripture is Matthew 24:48-51 KJV
Matthew 24:48-51 King James Version (KJV)
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

My beloved brothers and sisters, please do not be deceived by false doctrine.
Please, draw near to God by faith through the Spirit and listen to his voice.
For he is gentle and humble and he will teach you all you need to know.
He has moved so much in my life and a lot today and I have gained much understanding. Any disobedient and careless act can bring us to another unholy deed that can lead to many more. We are to workout our salvation. We are to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
My beloved brothers and sisters, please search the word of truth for yourself, do not listen to any website, family member, or church, but listen to the true word of God that liveth and abideth for ever. Please do not deny Jesus but allow him to speak to you.
Please before you read or answer below, take some time to humble yourself, draw near to God by faith, to be in the Spirit.
I ask that before answering you ask the Lord for understanding and wisdom.
May Jesus abundantly bless you with his knowledge, and many many miracles that worketh mightily in those who abideth in him. Praise the Lord!

The man is a servant in the Lords house, therefore he is a Christian. The scripture says he is cast out and appointed his portion with the unbelievers. That proves he was a believer and he had a portion with the Lord.
 
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Dan the deacon

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The man is a servant in the Lords house, therefore he is a Christian. The scripture says he is cast out and appointed his portion with the unbelievers. That proves he was a believer and he had a portion with the Lord.
But I bet those supporting calvinism will say he wasn't saved. Which, of coarse is a silly statement.
 
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Hazelelponi

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All things are for His purpose...

Sometimes we need assurance of our salvation, sometimes we need that desperately, and other times we need chastisement and a healthy fear of the Lord, fear of His judgement.

We aren't perfect, we are busy working out our salvation, as the Good Book says. It's why we sometimes need those things, which one depends on the moment..

None of it means God is not sovereign over all things; He is. Nor does it absolve us of our responsibility and culpability for our sin. We are accountable for our own actions.

But - no point smiting my brethren about the head with all my thoughts on the matter either..

Love to all..
 
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Drought of the Heart

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I don't know about anybody else but I find it so much easier to forgive a huge trespass than I do a minor one. My brother died on the side of the highway. Another man came along and took his truck and pushed his body over to the passenger side and took his body to the river and dumped him after stealing everything from his pants and shirt. He then drove around and sold it all for drug money. He was caught by midnight because my other brother was a chief of police and had some pull with the other city. The man lied about what happened to my brother for two hours until he confessed and told them where he was. I found it easier to forgive him, than the judge who refused the felony charges against him and let a six time loser go free after a short stay in jail. Wait, that isn't a lesser crime nor is it much of a minor trespass. Hummm. I guess I need to work on it some more. No kidding. I though I had forgiven the judge but maybe I haven't. Y'all pray for me, please. I need to seriously work on forgiving the judge. The man I did. The judge, not so. I guess we all need help in that area. Don't we?

First so sorry about your brother...

Dear Heavenly Father, we ask You help Marine forgive knowing You are the Judge of all Judges and no punishment is greater calling on Matthew 7 help us remember Jesus forgave those that nailed His hands understanding how great your punishment is ,remembering Stephen forgave those stone throwers understanding Your punishment , so let peace come to this family for the unjust act , help them lay it at your feet and let them learn to pray for those that cause us pain that maybe they can be saved from the gates of hell in Jesus name amen...
 
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bcbsr

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I already addressed 1 John 2:19 several times already.

Also, you quote another verse that actually refutes what you said about how all true believers will automatically do the things of God (in time I assume).

Hebrews 3:14 says "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.
?

Nope, you misquoted it. It's not "we are made partakers", rather it's "we have become (perfect tense) partakers of Christ". The tense is the point I was making. A tense that you got wrong. The "if" clause speaks of an indicator that we were saved to begin with.

Again - basic reading comprehension skills.
 
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bcbsr

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Paul in 1 John 2:18-19 at that area is warning people of antichrists who are coming to deceive true believers. The "they" in 1 John 2:19 refers to the antichrists, in other words, the heretics are not on the side of the true fold, the church. So Paul never said there that believers left because they were never really part of the fold. For this reason, he is warning in this passage about antichrists who come to deceive true believers from the flock.
First of all, it's not Paul who wrote 1John, it's John. Secondly the middle of the verse gives a universal principle we should take to heart as doctrine. Namely the if/them clause:

"if they had been of us, they would have continued with us"

Thus the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints
 
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bcbsr

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As another poster pointed out, just because some chickens can lay brown eggs, that does not mean all chickens lay brown eggs. You are trying to make those who were trying to seduce the brethren as being representative of all people when this is clearly not the case (When we look at the rest of Scripture). For if you were to read other verses in Scripture it clearly teaches that we have to pick up our cross and deny ourselves (for he that shall lose his life shall save it) (Matthew 16:24), keep the commands to enter into life (Matthew 19:17), Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14), For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Romans 8:13).

Okay. Why would Jesus say for us to pick up our cross and deny ourselves as a part of losing our life to save it if it is just some kind of automatic thing all true Christians will do?

Why would Jesus tell us to keep the commandments as part of entering into life if this is something that is automatic for all true Christians will do?

Why are we told to follow peace and holiness (of which no man shall see the Lord) if it is some kind of automatic thing that all Christians will do?

Why are we told that if we live after the flesh we will die and if we live after the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the body we shall live? This sounds like we are given a choice in Romans 8:13.

Gal 5:24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

It's a done deal. Notice the tense.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Then I’m sure by your logic you are able to live sinless

Can a person stop sinning for 5 minutes? Then a person can live sinless.

In fact, if a person can stop sinning for 5 minutes, that means they can do so for longer periods of time. In fact, even unbelievers use programs to overcome certain sins like the sin of alcoholism, gluttony, sex addiction, etc. Jesus can help us to overcome sin even better than that.

Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

Galatians 5:24 says,
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

1 Peter 4:1-2 says,
1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."
 
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Gal 5:24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

It's a done deal. Notice the tense.

I just quoted this verse to another person without seeing your post.

Okay. Does Galatians 5:24 say that Christ forced His way into a believer's life so as to crucify the affections and lusts? No.

Oh, and do you believe in Sinless Perfection? Because that is what this verse is teaching.
If you don't believe that, then such a person has not really crucified the affections and lusts (Which runs contrary to what Galatians 5:24 plainly says).

Again, you run into problems when you read verses like Matthew 6:15 where Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. If all Christians just automatically do the right thing (in time I assume), then Jesus telling believers that they can not forgive (or they won't be forgiven) would be non-sensical. Oh, and Jesus was talking to only believers in Matthew 6:15. For it doesn't matter if an unbeliever forgives everyone. They would still be condemned unless they first accept Jesus Christ as their Savior by seeking His forgiveness and by faith and trust in Him for their salvation (i.e. believing in His death and resurrection on their behalf).
 
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Nope, you misquoted it. It's not "we are made partakers", rather it's "we have become (perfect tense) partakers of Christ". The tense is the point I was making. A tense that you got wrong. The "if" clause speaks of an indicator that we were saved to begin with.

Again - basic reading comprehension skills.

You are the one who is not reading things correctly, my friend. It says we are made partakers with Christ IF we do what? There is a condition attached. IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

Let's rephrase this using other things.

Rob is made a partaker in his father's inheritance if he meets certain conditions of his father's will for 5 years after his father's death.

So if Rob does not meet those conditions, then he is not going to be a partaker of his father's inheritance.

Lisa is made a partaker in losing weight if she obeys her nutritionist's instructions or any kind of weight loss advice.

If Lisa does not seek to follow any weight loss advice, she is not going to lose weight (under normal circumstances).

We are made partakers with Christ IF.... IF....IF IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. In other words, you have to HOLD to the beginning the confidence. You have to do something. It's NOT an automatic thing. So you are reading this verse with Calvinistic glasses that seeks to change what this verse plainly says.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I've been tossed between doctrines many times.
I come across scriptures that seem to support OSAS and some refute it.
I really want to stop being tossed and be justified by faith in Christ and not by the law, yet live holy before the Lord without saying is this getting me to heaven? But simply just knowing the truth... For example there's a scripture that talks about that some are ever-learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and I don't want that to be me...
Please explain to me if this supports OSAS somehow, or it simply refutes it.
The scripture is Matthew 24:48-51 KJV
Matthew 24:48-51 King James Version (KJV)
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

My beloved brothers and sisters, please do not be deceived by false doctrine.
Please, draw near to God by faith through the Spirit and listen to his voice.
For he is gentle and humble and he will teach you all you need to know.
He has moved so much in my life and a lot today and I have gained much understanding. Any disobedient and careless act can bring us to another unholy deed that can lead to many more. We are to workout our salvation. We are to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
My beloved brothers and sisters, please search the word of truth for yourself, do not listen to any website, family member, or church, but listen to the true word of God that liveth and abideth for ever. Please do not deny Jesus but allow him to speak to you.
Please before you read or answer below, take some time to humble yourself, draw near to God by faith, to be in the Spirit.
I ask that before answering you ask the Lord for understanding and wisdom.
May Jesus abundantly bless you with his knowledge, and many many miracles that worketh mightily in those who abideth in him. Praise the Lord!
I really want to stop being tossed and be justified by faith in Christ and not by the law, yet live holy before the Lord without saying is this getting me to heaven?
So just believe, which is what purifies the heart, (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and thus the warnings to believers such as against having an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, drawing back unto perdition, back into bondage, making Christ of no effect, to no profit, falling from grace, etc. (Hebrews 3:12; 10:38,39; Gal. 5:1-5) are warnings against unbelief, thus forfeiting what faith obtained. (Likewise, since faith is manifested by works, statements that seem to teach salvation by works, such as Matthew 25:32-40, are really teaching that effectual faith saves).

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again [those who were set free] with the yoke of bondage [going back into what they were set free from]. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if [submission to Judaizers these believers are being warned against] ye be circumcised [signifying justification on the basis of keeping all the law], Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become [an effectual change due to their choice] of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace [their former state]. For we [those who continue to believe] through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (Galatians 5:1-5)

Take heed, brethren, [contextually not a general sense, but as believers] lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God [a departure from their former state s believers]. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin [a change of heart]. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end [perseverance of the saints]. (Hebrews 3:12-14)

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering [continued exhortation to persevere]; for he is faithful that promised. And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, [indicating departing from the faith, as follows] as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:23-25)


For if [a choice brethren are warned against] we [not just you] sin wilfully [not out of weakness, but with full consent, as by impenitent choices not to continue in faith but to depart from it, signified by giving up being with the believers] after that we have received the knowledge of the truth [a term which refers to believing, as per 1Tim. 2:4; 2Tim. 3:7], there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins [cf. Hebrews 6:6-8; a terminal condition of judgment, with no provision for repentance and forgiveness, having forfeited what saving faith obtained], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27)

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified [a past condition, appropriated by faith, now forfeited by a definite denial of the same] , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

Cast not away therefore your confidence, [the issue being faith, out of which obedience flows] which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise [not that doing earns the promise, but that saving faith is that which finally perseveres, which faith as manifested in works God - who gave faith and the ability and motivation to obey - rewards under grace] For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Now the just shall live by faith [the just live by faith, not merely profess it, with such faith being what appropriates justification]: but if any man draw back [a denial of justifying faith], my soul shall have no pleasure in him [as solemnly, fearfully described above]. But we [who do not draw back, but persevere] are not of them who draw back unto perdition [contextually a terminal condition of judgment, with no provision for repentance and forgiveness due to treating Christ with contempt] but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:35-39)


Such departing from the the living God, drawing backing into perdition, falling from grace, etc., is likely the the "great transgression," (Psalms 9:13) that of having "wickedly departed from my God,"(2 Samuel 22:22) which David stated he did not do, despite his sins, for unlike apostates he overall kept the ways of the Lord, and quickly confessed in repentance when convicted of not doing so, (2 Samuel 12:7-13)

It is the Father's will that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9) and that all whom the Father gives Christ shall be saved, (John 6:38) yet most souls will perish, and believers are warned against the same. For as with Judas, there are some sons of perdition.

And let me add that whatever glorifies God most should be our motivation, what we at least want the most. .

I once held to OSAS myself, and by nature would like to now, but in the light of Scripture find it incontrovertible that believers are being addressed as believers in these texts, I cannot see how all such can be dismissed as hypothetical, or that the consequences warned of are less than that of damnation as lost soul, and of them being the more accountable.

Yet i pray and trust that as David said, The Lord will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O Lord, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands. (Psalms 138:8)

I believe that God for His part will both preserve His word and continue the work He began by convicting me of sin, righteousness and judgment, drawing,me to Christ, and opening my heart, granting repentance and faith, etc., (John 6:44; 12:32; 16:8,9; Acts 11:18; 16:14; Ephesians 2:8,9) thus enabling and motivating me to do what i otherwise could not and would not. And likewise He will work to motivate and enable me to follow Christ, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure," (Philippians 2:13) for which i can claim zero credit. And since this means continuing in faith (versus mere profession), then God works to chasten us to repentance if needed.

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)

If God did not work such repentance, then we would be condemned with the world, thus refuting the premise that a one-time profession secures a soul. Yet the fact that God continues this works does not mean that I could not or cannot resist God,. which is the only thing i can really take credit for, and cannot choose to do what Scripture clearly warn believers, as believers, against. Thanks be to God.
 
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bcbsr

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Okay. Does Galatians 5:24 say that Christ forced His way into a believer's life so as to crucify the affections and lusts? No.

Oh, and do you believe in Sinless Perfection? Because that is what this verse is teaching.
So you're saying that you believe in sinless perfection. You believe the Gal 5:24 is teaching sinless perfection. That's what you said.

Now since Gal 5:24 uses the past tense, not the future tense I take it that you believe that you've attained a state of sinless perfection that you claim that Peter is talking about. And not only so, but you're going to have to apply that to "Those who belong to Christ Jesus". So you're saying that everyone who belongs to Christ has attained a state of sinless perfection.

Gee, and I thought what you had been advocating is that it's an ongoing process trying to be saved by being a good person.

Again, you run into problems when you read verses like Matthew 6:15 where Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.

Can't find anywhere in Mt 6:15 that denies those born of God forgive their brothers. Much of what Jesus says is diagnostic, making a distinction between children of God and children of the devil among his followers.

Likewise it says in 1John 3:10 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

The purpose in saying that is not prescriptive, but diagnostic.

[/QUOTE]
 
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bcbsr

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You are the one who is not reading things correctly, my friend. It says we are made partakers with Christ IF we do what?

You got it wrong again. Man, you're really in need of basic reading comprehension skills.

What you claim it says, "we are made partakers with Christ"

What it ACTUALLY says, "we have become partakers of Christ"

The perfect tense is used, not the present tense. And so you argument doesn't hold.
[/QUOTE]
 
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BNR32FAN

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These verses pertain to the Jewish Nation at the time of Christ, they were losing the Kingdom promised to them, because of rejecting their Messiah.

The ones directly spoken of are the Pharisees, they were mistreating the people, placing burdens on them they were not able to bear, they were the servants spoken of smiting their fellow servants, and Jesus came in a time they were not aware of, and cut them asunder.

These verses do not in any way, shape or form speak about OSAS.

Your Salvation is in Christ, it is secured in/by Christ.

These verses on the other hand do speak directly to the issue of OSAS.

God's Everlasting Love
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

All those examples are speaking of outside forces that cannot take away our salvation. No one can take away our salvation except ourself. What we do and how we live our life however can cause us to lose salvation. The servant of the master is a servant of God. The parable pertains to everyone not just the Pharisees. Consider these verses that specifically state that they pertain to everyone including believers.

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

John 15:1-6

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21

Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:10

Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Revelation 21:27

Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.

Ephesians 5:3-6

But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.

Matthew 25:31-46

Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!

Matthew 13:37-43

All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:7-8

Please re-examine the verses that are pertaining to salvation being eternal with the mindset that they are speaking of outside forces that cannot cause a person to lose salvation and you will see the truth. This is what the church taught from the very beginning. Also look at revelation 2 & 3 where Jesus gives the churches the opportunity to come back to Him otherwise they will not receive salvation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Your argument is based on a fallacy of logic. Of course there are SOME Christians who are really not Christians as you point out. However it is not logical to conclude that just because SOME were not of us, then ALL were not of us. That would be like claiming since some chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs. Thus 1 Jn 2:19 does not at all support the notion of OSAS. While some who fall away were never believers in the first place, it does not negate the reality that others who fall away were indeed true believers.

What about this parable?

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

John 15:1-6
 
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PeaceByJesus

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As another poster pointed out, just because some chickens can lay brown eggs, that does not mean all chickens lay brown eggs. You are trying to make those who were trying to seduce the brethren as being representative of all people when this is clearly not the case (When we look at the rest of Scripture). For if you were to read other verses in Scripture it clearly teaches that we have to pick up our cross and deny ourselves (for he that shall lose his life shall save it) (Matthew 16:24), keep the commands to enter into life (Matthew 19:17), Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14), For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Romans 8:13).

Okay. Why would Jesus say for us to pick up our cross and deny ourselves as a part of losing our life to save it if it is just some kind of automatic thing all true Christians will do?

Why would Jesus tell us to keep the commandments as part of entering into life if this is something that is automatic for all true Christians will do?

Why are we told to follow peace and holiness (of which no man shall see the Lord) if it is some kind of automatic thing that all Christians will do?

Why are we told that if we live after the flesh we will die and if we live after the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the body we shall live? This sounds like we are given a choice in Romans 8:13.
All the texts which enjoin works for salvation are actually enjoining faith, which everything you choose to do is determined by and testifies to what you truly believe, even if that may be what you believe at the moment. Thus while exhorting continuance in faith as being the basis for salvation, works are invoked as the evidence of one being a believer.

But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. (Hebrews 3:6)

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. (Hebrews 6:8-10)


However, while works are the basis for validating one as having saving faith, they are not the basis for justification, for it is faith which purifies the heart and is counted for righteousness. (Acts 15:9; Romans 4:5) But again, this saving is one that effects obedience, which includes penitent confession when convicted or not doing so. And which has been explained at length to you before , by the grace of God.
As far as what appropriates justification, one is only saved by grace thru faith, which purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) and renders one accepted in the Beloved (on His account) and positionally seated together which their Lord in Heaven, (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6) from where they await the Lord's return and His changing of our "vile body," that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body." (Philippians 3:21)

However, this saving justifying faith, is a faith which effects obedience by the Spirit in word and in deed, in heart and in life, whereby "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, (Romans 8:4) insofar as we do.

The appeal to the believer is to produce fruit consistent with faith, as a consequence of being accepted in the Beloved (on His account), to be practically (in heart and deed) as they are positionally in Christ, to be as much conformed to the Lord Jesus in this life as we can be, and will be in the resurrection. (Philippians 3:7-21)

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)


But which progressive practical sanctification is not the cause of the sinner's justification and acceptance in Christ, but testifies to such being a believer, evidencing "things which accompany salvation," (Hebrews 6:9) and fit to be rewarded. (Revelation 3:4) For this faith, as manifested in said obedience, God will recompense (Hebrews 10:35) under grace, even though it is God who motivates and enables all obedience, (Philippians 1:12,13) while the only thing we can and must take credit for it our disobedience.

In contrast to this salvation by effectual faith, evidencing meritorious works but which are not the cause of justification (though they justify one as being a believer, since they go together like light and heat), is salvation by grace thru works, as in Roman Catholicism, in which by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God via the act of baptism, even without the required wholehearted repentant faith. (Acts 8:38; 8:36,37)

However, since the carnal nature remains and few successfully attain to complete victory over any attachment to sin and perfection of character, then most baptized souls are sent to Roman Catholic (EOs trend to reject Rome's) Purgatory to endure purifying torments to atone for sins they sufficiently failed to provide for while on earth, and become good enough to enter glory.

There is some wiggle room as regards the conditions of purgatory since they are not dogmatic, but while salvation by grace thru faith as in sola fide means it is effectual faith being imputed for righteousness that justifies, salvation by grace thru works means that by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God, which premise either requires perfection of character in this life (and which merely being made clean in baptism would actually not effect) or postmortem purifying torments.

However, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:10f)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

Trying to reduce this imputed justification to merely referring to "initial" justification while then either requiring perfect obedience or else know, remember and confess every ("serious") sin one commits, as you seem to hold to ("If a person confesses, they are forgiven. If they sin again, they are not forgiven. It is that simple.") is absurd For this means one can be saved by faith without confessing every sin, but with a poor and contrite heart of a faith which essentially is repentant and confessing every sin, yet afterwards they must know, remember and confess every sin they ever commit (you cannot restrict this to just "serious" sin, since one sin dams a person).

Instead, while refusal of contrite confession to God when convicted of sin is a denial of faith, as as in not providing for one's family (1 Timothy 5:8) etc., yet while contrite, penitent confession to God when convicted of it is a characteristic of salvific faith, and who prays in general, "forgive us our sins as we forgive others," a believer does not need to know, remember and confess every sin - which no one does - since they are already forgiven under the same faith that obtained forgiveness and appropriated justification.

Likewise although saving faith i that which effects practical holiness as a fruit, and such is the basis for affirming one is saved (1 John 5:13) and fit to be recompensed under grace, (Hebrews 10:35,36) Revelation 3:4) yet the effect is not the cause of justification, which is faith, that being is how the just lives. (Hab 2:4; Rm 1:17; Gal 3:11)

And,

what love for God out of your whole heart, mind, soul and strength,

and love for your neighbor as yourself

(and for brethren as Christ loved us, fervently)

requires in all your conscious moments,

in heart word and deed,

in what you should and what you should not do,

and the awareness and remembering of all such,

and the depth of all such,

is so extensive that one is in delusion who thinks they no longer occasionally sin ("believers can struggle with sin in their early walk with God and they can falter on rare occasions. But to imply that we cannot overcome sin in this life is a big problem for me") or that they were aware of and remembered all such unto penitent confession, and to the depth of what they did. They are neither conscious nor aware of the scope and the depth of their sin, and which would require not simply repentance but repentance corresponding to that depth, which blindness itself is due to defect of heart.

But if you want a list of ways you are sinful and do not realize it, then we can start here.
Traits of the Self-Life
 
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However, while works are the basis for validating one as having saving faith, they are not the basis for justification, ....

Well, it depends on the type of work and the order of one's works. No man can be accepted by doing their own work (that is guided by human motivation). Also, nobody can put the cart before the horse. Faith has to come first before works. One has to wipe the slate of their past sins clean by Jesus Christ through faith. For a person is initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ through faith (without man directed works) (Ephesians 2:8-9). But, works (i.e. works of the Lord done through the believer) are required as a part of the salvation process after we are saved by God's grace. For Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Paul says, God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

But we are justified by works. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

For if works or holiness played no part in the salvation process, then we can live however we like and still be saved. We can be axe murdering rapists and still make into heaven because we have a belief on Jesus. But it doesn't work like that. You actually have to be good and cooperate with God in order to be saved. This is not an automatic thing. Our free will is not eliminated after we come to the faith. While we do have a new heart with new desires after seeking forgiveness with Jesus and by believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, that does not mean we will automatically endure to the end. Otherwise it would not make any sense for Jesus to warn us to forgive (or we will not be forgiven) (See Matthew 6:15) or to help the poor in this life, otherwise one will be cast into everlasting fire (See Matthew 25:31-46).
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Can a person stop sinning for 5 minutes? Then a person can live sinless.

In fact, if a person can stop sinning for 5 minutes, that means they can do so for longer periods of time. In fact, even unbelievers use programs to overcome certain sins like the sin of alcoholism, gluttony, sex addiction, etc. Jesus can help us to overcome sin even better than that.

Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

Galatians 5:24 says,
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

1 Peter 4:1-2 says,
1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."


If we can live sinless lives, Christ died in vain. Ignore all of this complicated clap- trap and simply trust God to save you via the vehicle he devised for us wretched sinners—-1 Cor15:1-4. So simple,and it works!
 
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If we can live sinless lives, Christ died in vain. Ignore all of this complicated clap- trap and simply trust God to save you via the vehicle he devised for us wretched sinners—-1 Cor15:1-4. So simple,and it works!

I don't buy it for a second (If I am understanding you correctly). God is not against what is moral and good. To say that we just trust Jesus as our Savior and say we are wretched sinners (presently speaking) is to say that we can live however we please (Instead of living holy for the Lord). If I am understanding you right, what you are asking me is to ignore basic morality and that is just not possible because I know God is good, holy, and righteous.

I mean, what in the world was Jesus even talking about when He said to those who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin)? Why would Jesus tell believers to depart from Him for iniquity or sin? Yet, you say we are wretched sinners (Which sounds like you are talking in the present tense). For me, if a person declares that they can believe in Jesus and abide in some kind of sin or be a slave to sin, there is no point to even believe in Jesus. Such a person should go back to their old life of sin and forget about Jesus. For Jesus said He would rather for us to be hot or cold and not luke warm, otherwise He will spew us out of His mouth. For Jesus will not benefit a person if they have not repented and forsaken their sin. For Jesus said repent or perish.

Side Note:

True repentance is seeking forgiveness with Jesus Christ and then follows with the natural fruits of repentance (Which is the forsaking of one's sin).
 
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I don't buy it for a second (If I am understanding you correctly). God is not against what is moral and good. To say that we just trust Jesus as our Savior and say we are wretched sinners (presently speaking) is to say that we can live however we please (Instead of living holy for the Lord). If I am understanding you right, what you are asking me is to ignore basic morality and that is just not possible because I know God is good, holy, and righteous.

I mean, what in the world was Jesus even talking about when He said to those who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin)? Why would Jesus tell believers to depart from Him for iniquity or sin? Yet, you say we are wretched sinners (Which sounds like you are talking in the present tense). For me, if a person declares that they can believe in Jesus and abide in some kind of sin or be a slave to sin, there is no point to even believe in Jesus. Such a person should go back to their old life of sin and forget about Jesus. For Jesus said He would rather for us to be hot or cold and not luke warm, otherwise He will spew us out of His mouth. For Jesus will not benefit a person if they have not repented and forsaken their sin. For Jesus said repent or perish.

Side Note:

True repentance is seeking forgiveness with Jesus Christ and then follows with the natural fruits of repentance (Which is the forsaking of one's sin).


Nobody “ forsakes their sins”. You are fooling nobody but yourself.we all have secret thoughts that would shame Hell . If I knew you the way that God does, I would throw up on my keyboard, and that goes DOUBLE for me .God has put ALL of our sins on the Cross, His Grace covers us until we make it to our real Home —- simply trust Him to “ finish the work “ that He started and He will do it.He ain’t interested in our pitiful attempts at “ perfection”. He already sees us as “ perfect” if we are in the Body of Christ.Good luck reaching that standard on your own.
 
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