Does this scripture refute OSAS? [Updated]

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Okay , I think you are really trying. The Promise of Yahweh in Scripture is that we know, because of the spirit HE PUTS IN US when we are born again by HIS WILL.
We have perfect peace and joy without measure (immeasurable, unending, that cannot be taken from us) , and righteousness, as HE SAYS, in Jesus our Savior, the Messiah.

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Can he take the Holy Spirit away from us ?

JakeyB123 said:

I've been tossed between doctrines many times.
I come across scriptures that seem to support OSAS and some refute it.
I really want to stop being tossed and be justified by faith in Christ and not by the law, yet live holy before the Lord without saying is this getting me to heaven? But simply just knowing the truth... For example there's a scripture that talks about that some are ever-learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and I don't want that to be me...
Please explain to me if this supports OSAS somehow, or it simply refutes it.
The scripture is Matthew 24:48-51 KJV
Matthew 24:48-51 King James Version (KJV)
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

My beloved brothers and sisters, please do not be deceived by false doctrine.
Please, draw near to God by faith through the Spirit and listen to his voice.
For he is gentle and humble and he will teach you all you need to know.
He has moved so much in my life and a lot today and I have gained much understanding. Any disobedient and careless act can bring us to another unholy deed that can lead to many more. We are to workout our salvation. We are to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
My beloved brothers and sisters, please search the word of truth for yourself, do not listen to any website, family member, or church, but listen to the true word of God that liveth and abideth for ever. Please do not deny Jesus but allow him to speak to you.
Please before you read or answer below, take some time to humble yourself, draw near to God by faith, to be in the Spirit.
I ask that before answering you ask the Lord for understanding and wisdom.
May Jesus abundantly bless you with his knowledge, and many many miracles that worketh mightily in those who abideth in him. Praise the Lord!

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Why is OSAS popular?

We already know we are all safe in Christ's hands, without the OSAS idea--

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

We cannot be snatched from Him by the enemy.

One real concern about the OSAS idea is how it seems to suggest continuing in sin doesn't matter.

If it's impossible to lose salvation, then we could do any sin and never confess, never repent, never worry.

But, we know from scripture it is not safe to intentionally continue in a sin. Even those trying to only use Paul's epistles alone still face this same warning against sin (as elsewhere in the New Testament), for example, in 1 Corinthians ch 6--

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

JakeyB123 said:

Does this scripture refute OSAS?

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No.

I believed on the Lord when I was 12 years old. When I was around 15 I consciously walked away from Christianity because I was taught that I had to do certain things (or, more precisely "not" do or think on certain things). I simply could not live up to the standard put before me and the "re-obtaining" of the salvation I had supposedly lost when I sinned were too painful to endure.

It was not until I was almost 30 that the Lord dragged me back into the Kingdom of God.

The first thing I did when I believed was to find out clearly and concisely what the scriptures did and did not teach concerning the eternal security of believers (i.e. - how am I saved and how can I stay saved).

I've been over this subject dozens of times in my 60 years with the Lord. That is because wrong thinking along these lines cost me some 15 years of Christian growth and much loss because of the debauched life I lived in my 20's before returning to the Lord.

I could go through the subject verse by verse for the entire thread. But I won't.

What I will do is share what I have found as a sincere and active "theologian" over the majority of my life.

There are various ways to "explain away" (if you will) every scripture which seems to teach the possible loss of security.

There is absolutely no way that the scriptures which tell us how one is saved and of eternal security can be "explained away".

Unlike some loss of salvation scriptures (such as the one you have referred us to in the OP) - scriptures from the other side must be taken to mean exactly what they say.

One who has truly been saved by grace through faith has passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation - although they can incur the displeasure and the discipline of the Lord and suffer great loss.

This does not address those who only make a profession of faith or who are trying to obtain salvation by their own good works (there are many such believers in "another gospel" on display here in the forum).

The latter category may be some of the most "pious" people you will associate with here in "Christian" forums.

But they will be lost in the end simply because the Lord "never" knew them in the first place

I.e. they had never rested in the sufficiency of Christ's work on their behalf as their only hope of salvation.

Halbhh said:

One real concern about the OSAS idea is how it seems to suggest continuing in sin doesn't matter.

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1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Not single one , not even taking forbidden fruit like Eve and Adam .

Marvin Knox said:

No.

I believed on the Lord when I was 12 years old. When I was around 15 I consciously walked away from Christianity because I was taught that I had to do certain things (or, more precisely "not" do or think on certain things). It was not until I was almost 30 that the Lord dragged me back into the Kingdom of God.

The first thing I did when I believed was to find out clearly and concisely what the scriptures did and did not teach concerning eternal the security of believers (i.e. - how am I saved and how can I stay saved).

I've been over this subject dozens of times in my 60 years with the Lord. That is because wrong thinking along these lines cost me some 15 years of Christian growth and much loss because of my debauched life before returning to the Lord.

I could go over go through the subject verse by verse for the entire thread. But I won't.

What I will do is share what I have found as a sincere and active "theologian" over the majority of my life.

There are various ways to explain away (if you will) every scripture which seems to teach possible loss of security.

There is absolutely no way that the scriptures which tell us of eternal security can be "explained away".

Unlike some loss of salvation scriptures (such as the one you have referred us to in the OP) - scripture from the other side must be taken to mean exactly what they say.

One who has truly been saved by grace through faith has passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation although they can incur the displeasure and the discipline of the Lord and suffer great loss.

This does not address those who only make a profession of faith or who are trying to obtain salvation by their own good works. They will be lost simply because the Lord "never" knew them in the first place.

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For me I always believed that God exist , I did not believe evolution or stuff like that but untill I understood the atonement I was not born again ( till around 22 years ).

Chinchilla said:

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Not single one , not even taking forbidden fruit like Eve and Adam .

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Consider Peter. Not only denying Christ before the crucifixion, but later even after the Spirit came (!), Peter for a time wrongly refusing to eat with the uncircumcised and who was confronted by Paul, who said Peter "stood condemned" .

Was that it for Peter?

No, he repented.

To understand the seeming contradiction to your verse from chapter 1 of 1 John, and the full message, we need to read fully through, just as John intended and expected. Once a person has freshly (say within the last few months) read 1 John fully, then it's far easier to fit together all the message.

In other words, in this we need all the parts in the epistle. Then we can understand each part.

Halbhh said:

Consider Peter. Not only denying Christ before the crucifixion, but later even after the Spirit came (!), Peter for a time wrongly refusing to eat with the uncircumcised and who was confronted by Paul, who said Peter "stood condemned" .

Was that it for Peter?

No, he repented.

To understand the seeming contradiction to your verse from chapter 1 of 1 John, and the full message, we need to read fully through, just as John intended and expected. Once a person has freshly (say within the last few months) read 1 John fully, then it's far easier to fit together all the message.

In other words, in this we need all the parts in the epistle. Then suddenly we can understand each part.

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Did God lie to us ? Peter lied he should not inherit .

Corinthians 6:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Do you believe that the "washing " part takes only once ? And then when we sin next time we can't be washed ?

Hebrews 10:26-31 King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Halbhh said:

Consider Peter. Not only denying Christ before the crucifixion, but later even after the Spirit came (!), Peter for a time wrongly refusing to eat with the uncircumcised and who was confronted by Paul, who said Peter "stood condemned" .

Was that it for Peter?

No, he repented.

To understand the seeming contradiction to your verse from chapter 1 of 1 John, and the full message, we need to read fully through, just as John intended and expected. Once a person has freshly (say within the last few months) read 1 John fully, then it's far easier to fit together all the message.

In other words, in this we need all the parts in the epistle. Then we can understand each part.

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What about Matthew ?

Matthew 7:18-23 King James Version (KJV)
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Looks like if you have 1 bad fruit on your tree then your tree is all bad , you can't even have one bad fruit to have good tree with good fruits , and bad tree can't even bear a good fruit .

Chinchilla said:

What about Matthew ?

Matthew 7:18-23 King James Version (KJV)
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Looks like if you have 1 bad fruit on your tree then your tree is all bad , you can't even have one bad fruit to have good tree with good fruits , and bad tree can't even bear a good fruit .

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That passage is verses 15 through 20. About knowing who are false prophets.

If you take it more broadly, do you think Peter is lost then having had a bad fruit at times?

Not if we read through full books. Then we know Peter repented. John 15, v1-17 is helpful. The vinedresser prunes.

Halbhh said:

That passage is verses 15 through 20. About knowing who are false prophets.

If you take it more broadly, do you think Peter is lost then having had a bad fruit at times?

Not if we read through full books. Then we know Peter repented. John 15, v1-17 is helpful. The vinedresser prunes.

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What does repentance mean ? Does it mean that somebody sinned and is feeling guilty and want to make up for such mistake ?

I have not read the thread, this is a general comment to the OP.

We know the Bible is 100% true. So from there, when you see verses that seem to contradict you must look to find how they can both be true at the same time.

Anyone whose "doctrine" throws out / ignores verses they don't like is not a Bible based, Bible believing doctrine..

It's a matter of how all verses being true, work together hand in hand to shape your belief.

Hazelelponi said:

I have not read the thread, this is a general comment to the OP.

We know the Bible is 100% true. So from there, when you see verses that seem to contradict you must look to find how they can both be true at the same time.

Anyone whose "doctrine" throws out / ignores verses they don't like is not a Bible based, Bible believing doctrine..

It's a matter of how all verses being true, work together hand in hand to shape your belief.

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Could you explain this one to me .

Proverbs 26:4-7 King James Version (KJV)
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

That's why we get confused , why God did not make it more clear , they are next to each other and seem to contradict . Then you see some unbeliever laughing at these types of verses and you can't really deny and fight against his argument .

Chinchilla said:

What does repentance mean ? Does it mean that somebody sinned and is feeling guilty and want to make up for such mistake ?

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You asked that before (to another person, but I replied), remember?

I understand if it slipped memory. I found it quickly, and here's a link:
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-do-i-actually-be-saved.8072098/#post-72908469

Halbhh said:

You asked that before (to another person, but I replied), remember?

I understand if it slipped memory. I found it quickly, and here's a link:
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-do-i-actually-be-saved.8072098/#post-72908469

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Because words change meaning over time and we make mistakes because of that . There is word gravity which means different thing that our force of gravity .

In Bible for example turtledove

Genesis 15:9
9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

These were clean animals for offering , but in Leviticus 15:29 we read

29 And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Turtle would be unclean animals and would be abomination to sacrifice to LORD , but turtle did not mean sea creature back then but it was short for turtledove.

So likewise words like repentance changed thier meaning .

Chinchilla said:

Could you explain this one to me .

Proverbs 26:4-7 King James Version (KJV)
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

That's why we get confused , why God did not make it more clear , they are next to each other and seem to contradict . Then you see some unbeliever laughing at these types of verses and you can't really deny and fight against his argument .

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This is an example of parallelism in the Bible and it shows or exemplifies what is said in Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 For everything there is a season...

The majority of the time we don't bother answering fools as it ends up with us stooping to their level which we don't want, but there are occasions when someone must answer and speak the truth.. for everything there is a season, so we must be careful if the Holy Spirit leads us to answer, that we not allow it to devolve, but rather we should speak simply, in a way that's easy to understand. This is the meaning of those two verses.

As for those who don't believe, you can't open their eyes to see the Truth, all you can do is to be there with the Truth when God opens their eyes and hearts.

MDC said:

All the elect endure to the end by Gods grace. Only true believers are the elect in Christ. What you speak of are tares among the wheat (true believers). Pretenders and false professors are apostates and tares among the visible church. And warnings in scripture are to encourage true believers of their leaven and to call to repentance these tares. 1 John 2:19 is obvious that they were NEVER among the elect in Christ. Because if they had been they would’ve remained in the faith. But they were made manifest to the church that they were imposters. Only a tare would take the mark. By promoting loss of salvation, you therefore promote that your works maintains your salvation. There’s no Christ nor gospel in this false teaching

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You have committed a logical fallacy otherwise popularly known as an overgeneralization. Just because SOME believers who depart from the faith were never saved to begin with, it does not logically entail that ALL believers who depart from the faith were never saved to begin with. Do you believe that just because SOME chickens lay brown eggs, therefore ALL chickens must lay brown eggs? Yes or no? This shows the logical weakness of your held conclusion. Furthermore, you have neglected to explain how it is possible for an unbeliever who never had faith to begin with, to apostatize and fall away from the faith that he/she never possessed. It is impossible for an unsaved person to apostatize. Thus Scripture is replete with warnings to the believer against apostatizing.

You have also managed to avoid answering my simple question which directly contradicts with your held view of OSAS. I have proposed this same scenario to others who share your belief and the result is always the same. They avoid answering my simple question or they answer in terms of what someone else might do. Thus, I'll lay it out for you and you can choose to respond or not respond as that is your prerogative.
If Jesus does not return before the great tribulation and you find yourself in the position of having to decide whether or not to take the mark of the beast, would YOU take the mark?
As far as I know, YOU have 3 possible options:
1. Yes, take the mark because I’m eternally secure. This response indicates that you are at least consistent in your belief. However I’ve found no one responding in this manner because they know that this affirmative response directly contradicts the plain warning given in Rev 14:9-11.
2. No, don’t take the mark because if I do it would demonstrate that I was never a believer/elect to begin with (which your stated claim based on 1 Jn 2:19). This option puts to rest your notion that those who continue to sin or no longer believe and depart were never believers in the first place. I have no reason to doubt you are saved; yet at the same time you would have acknowledge the consequence of you losing your salvation upon taking the mark. It puts you in a quandary because according to your belief, if you took that mark it would mean that you are a tare/unbeliever who was never saved - which I presume you have a hard time accepting. You can no longer use the excuse that persons who fall away from the faith never really believed.

3. No, don’t take the mark because if I do I’m condemned to the lake of fire. If this option is taken, a person who adheres to eternal security acknowledges that the warning of taking the mark applies to him/her personally and the doctrine of eternal security is no longer a valid belief.

A person who believes in the pre-trib rapture might protest and claim that this is not valid and is only a hypothetical example since the church is raptured before the great tribulation. However Rev 14:12 notes that the saints are still present at the time when the mark is presented. Whether this is the entire church or only tribulation saints is another matter for discussion. The main point is that v.12 commands the saints to persevere and be patient by keeping God’s commandments and their faith. Taking the mark would demonstrate that a saint has not kept the commandments and his/her faith.
Finally, I have had people avoid answering my question by replying that under no circumstances would they ever take the mark. I ask them how can they be so certain of what they will do, or not do in the future - especially under extreme duress? I state that for myself, the most I can say is that I hope with God's grace I will refuse to mark. They reply by saying that they just KNOW they will not accept it. I then remind them that Peter was also certain and self-assured when he boldly proclaimed that he would never deny Jesus, and we both know what happened to Peter afterwards. Peter's example is an example for us. Of course later on, Peter was repentant and forgiven however his presumption of always following Christ is a warning for us not to be so self-assured of ourselves.

Hazelelponi said:

This is an example of parallelism in the Bible and it shows or exemplifies what is said in Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 For everything there is a season...

The majority of the time we don't bother answering fools as it ends up with us stooping to their level which we don't want, but there are occasions when someone must answer and speak the truth.. for everything there is a season, so we must be careful if the Holy Spirit leads us to answer, that we not allow it to devolve, but rather we should speak simply, in a way that's easy to understand. This is the meaning of those two verses.

As for those who don't believe, you can't open their eyes to see the Truth, all you can do is to be there with the Truth when God opens their eyes and hearts.

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Interesting coincidence just happend . I made myself sandwich and went back to pc and was like " let's google devolve definition was wondering if such word exist and if it's opposite to evolve and found the definition "pass into (a different state, especially a worse one); degenerate. " . Then I ate my sandwich and checked the new posts and your post had the word devolve in it strange it is isn't it ?

I think you are right about the season for everything . Sometimes it's good to just have your mouth shut and don't bother other times to speak up .

MDC said:

So consequently “something” is plucking you out of His hand. If your will is being moved to go astray, is there not something or someone influencing your desires?

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It's your choice to subject yourself to sinful influences which lead you away from God. You have an opportunity to investigate their clams to see if they are speaking the truth or not (see 1 John 4:1; Isaiah 8:20; Psalms 119:105). That's why we have the Bible (see 2 Timothy 3:16-17); and the Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth (see John 16:13), and convicts the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment (v. 8). You have nobody to blame for your choices but yourself (see Proverbs 3:5-7).

Jason0047 said:

But you said before that it is against the forum rules to state that some believers are not believers. Yet, in 1 John 2:19 this is what it saying and you are agreeing with me. So either you do not agree with the rule entirely or you are contradicting yourself. In short, the verse itself is breaking this rule.

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You're confused. I don't see where I'm agree with you. What John is stating should be clear enough to you.
If they had belonged to us (ONCE SAVED)
They would have remained with us (ALWAYS SAVED)

Jason0047 said:

In Romans 3, Paul said this as a point of getting initially right with God by seeking forgiveness of their sins by Jesus Christ. Romans 3:1 says, what profit is there of the Jew or circumcision? So Paul was trying to refute the false Pharisee religion that claimed you had to be circumcised to be saved. This is not talking about how we have to endure unto the end in our Sanctification. There are many verses that talk about what we MUST do after coming to Christ. It is not an automatic thing as you suggest. Yes, we do need to be born again and we will have a new heart with new desires, but nowhere does Scripture teach that we do not need to worry about enduring until the end in our faith. There are many commands that Jesus and His followers give us that if you do this.... you are of God and if you do not do such things you are condemned.

For Jesus would never say to us to forgive or we will not be forgiven in Matthew 6:15 if it is just an automatic thing that just happens to all believers. It would be redundant or pointless to say such a thing if what you say is true.

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As 1John 2:19 states, those who belong to Christ do endure to the end. As is also stated in Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Using basic reading comprehension skills, notice the tense. If you can't grasp the implication I can't help you.