Torturers and Hell

Light of the East

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We cant debate in this forum, and i wouldn't want to debate purgatory anyway. You may be going to purgatory but not me friend. Im heading for paradise.

You are in for a BIG surprise.
 
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Light of the East

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Hell is not symbolic.

He shed His blood and DIED so we would not be obliged to go there.

To do such a thing implies that it was a deadly serious horror that is best avoided.

And that is through Him.

Isn't it?

The Word was made flesh and died upon a cross to enable us to become "gods." The whole purpose of salvation is not to meet some punishment that is deserved. It is to give us the power to be changed into the likeness of Christ. The more we become like Christ, the more we will find it easy in the next life.

But since no one is perfect in this life, most will have to undergo some form of ontological change, a burning away of the last stubborn remnants of sin which we did not deal with. This burning away is part of the change that we undergo in the presence of Christ. The presence of He who is Truth burns away all that is false - and I imagine it will hurt quite a bit.

The horror is not becoming like Christ, not fulfilling that for which we were created - to become gods.
 
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brinny

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The Word was made flesh and died upon a cross to enable us to become "gods." The whole purpose of salvation is not to meet some punishment that is deserved. It is to give us the power to be changed into the likeness of Christ. The more we become like Christ, the more we will find it easy in the next life.

But since no one is perfect in this life, most will have to undergo some form of ontological change, a burning away of the last stubborn remnants of sin which we did not deal with. This burning away is part of the change that we undergo in the presence of Christ. The presence of He who is Truth burns away all that is false - and I imagine it will hurt quite a bit.

The horror is not becoming like Christ, not fulfilling that for which we were created - to become gods.

Hi Light.

How are you?

:wave:
 
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Light of the East

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Doing real well for an old guy. Feeling good today. Thinking of going to the gym for a workout, I am feeling so good.

Been a strange couple of months for me. Started in June when my car, which I loaned out to a man to help him get to work, was totalled by a lady who ran a red light. Then, my house in Pennsylvania where my daughter and grandchildren live, was hit by two trees knocked down by an F1 tornado. So I was dealing with two insurance companies at the same time. Fortunately, both of them were fair with me.

Things keep plodding along, but being alive and still able to seek the Lord and seek to serve Him is good!
 
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brinny

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Doing real well for an old guy. Feeling good today. Thinking of going to the gym for a workout, I am feeling so good.

Been a strange couple of months for me. Started in June when my car, which I loaned out to a man to help him get to work, was totalled by a lady who ran a red light. Then, my house in Pennsylvania where my daughter and grandchildren live, was hit by two trees knocked down by an F1 tornado. So I was dealing with two insurance companies at the same time. Fortunately, both of them were fair with me.

Things keep plodding along, but being alive and still able to seek the Lord and seek to serve Him is good!

:heart: I'm sorry to hear that, Light.

It sounds like no one was hurt in either incident?

Praying for your family and you too (((hug)))
 
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Light of the East

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:heart: I'm sorry to hear that, Light.

It sounds like no one was hurt in either incident?

Praying for your family and you too (((hug)))

The man driving my car was banged up and sore, but nothing broken and no hospital time. My daughter and grandchildren were just scared by the falling trees.

The interesting thing (and good for me) is that after the dust all cleared, I netted about $5,000 from the insurance payments. The car - I paid $900 for and USAA gave me $2,700 for it. Apparently when I bought it I got a real good deal. My daughter decided not to repair the back deck that was damaged, so she just had my oldest son tear it out and throw it away. She also found friends of friends who are licensed roofers and construction guys and she got some really good pricing.

It worked out for the good for me in the long run.
 
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brinny

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The man driving my car was banged up and sore, but nothing broken and no hospital time. My daughter and grandchildren were just scared by the falling trees.

The interesting thing (and good for me) is that after the dust all cleared, I netted about $5,000 from the insurance payments. The car - I paid $900 for and USAA gave me $2,700 for it. Apparently when I bought it I got a real good deal. My daughter decided not to repair the back deck that was damaged, so she just had my oldest son tear it out and throw it away. She also found friends of friends who are licensed roofers and construction guys and she got some really good pricing.

It worked out for the good for me in the long run.

That is good to hear. I'm glad all is working out so well. :)
 
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Chinchilla

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Today I prayed to the Lord about Hell and torturers. I know that those who torture people are going to Hell. The Lord told me that Hell is very different from a place of burning flames. The Lord told me that in Hell people live simply and have very small houses. The Lord told me that they live with small rooms and a simple bed. The Lord told me that they have simple belongings and read the Bible everyday. The Lord told me that they sleep in a small bed. The Lord told me that they go to church on Sundays and have Bible study during the week. The Lord told me that they do not have soulmates because they have destroyed women and children and men in their lives. The Lord told me that they wear humble clothing and that they cry everyday for what they have done. The Lord told me that they pray for their victims everyday. The Lord told me that the landscape of hell is humble and that there are mountains that protect the small houses and the grass is green. The Lord told me that he visits the torturers and they talk about their beautiful victims and pray for them. The Lord told me that tortures mourn everyday and that they find their victims very beautiful.

My Lord tells me otherwise , which Lord are you talking about ?
 
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Valetic

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NP.

One, this is one of very few passages that use any kind of language that so much as hints at eternal torment, and is in Revelation of all books. I would be very wary of taking everything literally in apocalyptic literature, of all things.

Two, this doesn't even seem to be taking place in the lake of fire, anyway, but is still happening to those who willingly chose against Christ in taking "the mark" while still living on planet Earth. If for no other reason than the fact that it says in the passage that this torment takes place in the PRESENCE of the Lamb. How is God or Jesus or the Spirit present in hell at all if the traditional view is that the torment in hell comes primarily if not solely from the absence of God, complete separation from Him, or "spiritual death" as traditionalists like to call it. On top of that, the "smoke of their torment rises up forever" part could easily be a reference back to Edom in, I believe it waa, Isaiah 34, a land that is not still burning yet preserved somehow at the same time in present day but was in fact made a desolate smoking heap, a picture of utter destruction. And believe me, fire will torture you with pain before it finally kills you.

So basically, what I think of that passage is that it is a punishment still occurring to the wicked who willingly rejected the one and only Christ on Earth, either a metaphorical torment in that they literally cannot stand the brightness of the Lamb's presence because of how they instead chose worship of the one who directly opposes Christ, or perhaps a destruction by fire much like Edom or Sodom or Gomorrah. I won't claim correctness on my theories or explanation here on Revelation 14, as I can admit I am quite daunted by the task of studying Revelation and its meanings as a book clearly rife with symbolism and apocalyptic imagery; I just don't see why or how it alone should be counted as any kind of definitive proof for the traditional view of living forever in eternal torment in hell. Even when it says "tormented forever and ever" the one time later on in Revelation 20, it STILL doesn't mention humans as the subject, only Satan and whoever the Beast and False Prophet are (or will be).


I'm just not going to pit two verses in Revelation, a single parable in Luke, and not much else against numerous verses that make clear in plain words that the unsaved and the wicked will be destroyed / burned up / perish / come to an end / killed / consumed / etc., and believe that somehow I should take the former literally while attributing hidden or special meaning to the latter in order to make it fit the traditional view gleaned from the former. Really doesn't seem honest or sensible when trying to teach a view from Scripture.


(And please, in case you are one of "those guys", spare me the transparent condemnation - in order to just shut down the argument on my end - by claiming I am calling the Messiah a liar or "arguing with God" Himself just because I disagree with traditionalists on the meaning or intent of the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man.)

I found this.. Maybe you can interpret this one for me as well?

Mathew 25

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 
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brinny

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Bluerose31 said:
Today I prayed to the Lord about Hell and torturers. I know that those who torture people are going to Hell. The Lord told me that Hell is very different from a place of burning flames. The Lord told me that in Hell people live simply and have very small houses. The Lord told me that they live with small rooms and a simple bed. The Lord told me that they have simple belongings and read the Bible everyday. The Lord told me that they sleep in a small bed. The Lord told me that they go to church on Sundays and have Bible study during the week. The Lord told me that they do not have soulmates because they have destroyed women and children and men in their lives. The Lord told me that they wear humble clothing and that they cry everyday for what they have done. The Lord told me that they pray for their victims everyday. The Lord told me that the landscape of hell is humble and that there are mountains that protect the small houses and the grass is green. The Lord told me that he visits the torturers and they talk about their beautiful victims and pray for them. The Lord told me that tortures mourn everyday and that they find their victims very beautiful.

My Lord tells me otherwise , which Lord are you talking about ?

I agree.

I was wondering the same thing.
 
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SarahsKnight

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I found this.. Maybe you can interpret this one for me as well?

Mathew 25

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


Hey, Valetico. Sorry, I can think of a lot to say, but it'd take forever, so I'd like to just try to keep it brief.

Here's the thing; I don't deny that there are a few passages in the Bible that can fit with the traditional view of hell, as eternal torment (and the above about going into eternal fire and eternal punishment are two of them). But they do not distinctly say it, that what happens to the people who go into the eternal fire are tortured forever. They do not directly describe the fate of the lost, but only the place to which they depart, and the condition of the punishment as eternal.

If these were the only two passages in Scripture that referred to the fate or consequence for unbelief (or being among "the wicked"), then, yeah, I would have to say eternal torment is just about the only realistic explanation. But they aren't. Far from it.

Here are just a small fraction - maybe a fifth at most - of verses that clearly describe the fate of the lost in words that directly refer to what will happen to the lost and the unbelieving, and there is really no reason for me to think they mean anything other than exactly what they say:

1. Psalms 37:20 - But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.
Without clear explanation somewhere in the immediate context telling me what these bolded terms "really mean", there's just no honest reason for me to think that this fate refers only to the wicked while they are alive on planet Earth or happens to "just their bodies - but the soul goes on forever" (two counterpoints I hear from traditionalists to verses like these all of the time when conditionalists point them out, based on pure presumption about the immortality or eternality of souls), or that they can still be consciously punished without end while being consumed or burning up in fire. In fact, all of Psalms 37 seems to be a tribute to the ultimate fate of the wicked (or lost), almost like the Bible is actively trying to make it unambiguously clear what will happen to them.

2. Psalms 58:8 - May they be like a slug that melts away as it moves along, like a stillborn child that never sees the sun.
I really have to ask why the Bible would ever use a term like "melt away" in any context if in hell you can never actually melt away from the consuming nature of the fire, but instead just live forever in the pain of burning.

3. Psalms 68:2 - May you blow them away like smoke -- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God.
Pretty much nothing new I can say there that I haven't said before. It's also clearly God that the writer of this Psalm is asking for Him to bring upon the wicked.

4. Isaiah 26:14 - They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.
Now my guess is that, even though Isaiah is a book of prophecy, this is still referring to the first death or destruction upon Earth for a certain group counted among the wicked. But the second death for any human is not worded in any different terms to describe the nature of one's fate in the lake of fire (and no, I don't see how Revelation 20:10 counts, as of all books in the Bible this is the one that finally chooses to bring out any words that clearly say eternal torment? This is the last book you want to be able to take literally in its entirety, and even then Rev 20:10 refers only to Satan, the beast, and the false prophet, not humans. When it gets to humans later on as they are being thrown into the same lake of fire, it is called the second death. Not as any kind of conscious, endless punishment or torment).

5. Malachi 4:3 - Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty.
How much more clear could it be? God does not even use the terms "ashes" in any kind of figurative way. He doesn't say "be like ash" or anything. He pretty much calls the wicked ashes at this point. Or in some translation, just "be ash". If in reality this is supposed to be a metaphor in which the wicked are only like ashes in that the righteous are stepping on them but the wicked in reality are still living the entire time in hell? Then this verse would mean that we believers are in Heaven the entire time gloating and mocking over the wicked's endless torment at minimum, if not actually being the ones who are "trampling" them by doing the torturing. And I really hope that it is not in the consciences of any traditionalist here that that is actually how it will happen, ... because if so, then they seriously need some professional help. Because that is not of the Spirit to actively want or perpetuate others' physical or emotional suffering regardless of who they are. It is messed up to say the least.

6. Matthew 28:10 - speaks of destroying both soul and body in hell (Gehenna). I really do not see how anyone can still say that only bodies die or are destroyed but souls endure forever whether in Heaven or Hell, after this unambiguous verse. Why would Jesus threaten only that God can or will destroy souls, if in fact He plans to do infinitely worse by torturing or having them tortured them endlessly in fire?

7. Romans 6:23 - says the wages of sin is death. Straight up. ... Not "spiritual death", not "torment", not even ruination (which could fit either the conditionalist or traditionalist view). The traditionalist objection here is often that 6:23 refers only to the first death. But if so? Why bother? Why bother mentioning this at all if the second death is going to be so much different from the first that it is actually an eternal state of living death in which you are tortured endlessly, much less not take this opportunity to mention the second death? Notice also that in this verse it says "but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord". Is eternal life not the final state of the righteous, those whose sins are forgiven and covered by the blood of the Lamb? Then why contrast it with the first state (and not the final state) of the wicked, if the traditionalist interpretation of this verse is that it refers to only the first death?

8. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power (this one is the KJV, by the way, which most Bible readers seem to really prefer).
I just call it as it is there. Everlasting destruction. Not everlasting destroying (a process in which one is apparently being destroyed forever but it never reaches a conclusion), but just a destruction that is final and you are not coming back from it.

9. 2 Peter 2:6 - if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.
An example of what will happen to the ungodly, and the phrase used to describe what will happen is "burning them to ash". If the people of Sodom and Gomorrah or the cities themselves are currently or will still be burning in hell without actually being turned to ash, well, I would say Peter is being misleading at best here. And they certainly cannot serve as an example if we can't see them for ourselves in hell being tortured.

__________

(Also, please note that if I sounded exasperated when I addressed traditionalist objections to my "proof verses" above, I was not directing this at you, specifically, Valetic. I am not even sure of what position you take, so I know you weren't trying to attack me or be condescending to me or anything with your challenge; you were simply asking :).)

Now, I got off the original point you obviously were expecting me to respond to, how to explain Matthew 25:41 and 46. My only point in listing all of the verses above is that those actually say directly what will happen to the wicked or what state they will be in.

Matthew 25:41 does not do that. It only says the fire is eternal. Whether the word eternal there describes the endurance of the fire or the fact that it came from the one and only eternal God? I do not know. But either way, it does say the humans who go into that fire will be eternal. That may sound like a stretch or a leap on my part, but only if it were the only verse in the Bible that says anything about the fate of the lost. If it's not definitive proof, and yet there are so many verses that describe the wicked's fate directly as death, destruction, or being devoured or consumed by fire, then conditional immortality - the stance that annihilationists take - has a good case.

Matthew 25:46 can swing either way. I have no trouble admitting that. After all, Christ Himself says it. Who are we to deny the words of the Savior Himself? I do, however, wonder why He contrasts eternal life with eternal punishment here, if in the traditionalist case it requires that humans are living forever in either state. It seems to me like being consciously tortured forever in hell is just another form of eternal life, albeit a miserable one. But I do know the view of life and death that most if not all traditionalists seem to hold, and that's all well and good. But if eternal torment were true I just think it would have gotten the point across better if Jesus had said "eternal bliss" and "eternal misery".

(And no, I am not trying to tell Jesus what He should say or how to say it - heard that smear a million times in some form or another from debaters on all theological sides, just in case anyone's thinking of saying it here; I'm just saying you can't expect conditionalists to immediately interpret these verses as eternal torment without question regardless of what so much other Scripture says. I just can't do it personally in good conscience. I believe in "letting Scripture interpret Scripture", just like anyone else, so I cannot hold the two verses from Matthew 25 above, the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and two passages in Revelation, and not much else, as definitive proof against so many others that say the exact opposite of eternal torment.)


.... And of course, I failed to keep this brief like I always say I would. Sorry. :(
 
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Valetic

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Hey, Valetico. Sorry, I can think of a lot to say, but it'd take forever, so I'd like to just try to keep it brief.

Here's the thing; I don't deny that there are a few passages in the Bible that can fit with the traditional view of hell, as eternal torment (and the above about going into eternal fire and eternal punishment are two of them). But they do not distinctly say it, that what happens tot he people who go into the eternal fire are tortured forever. They do not directly describe the fate of the lost, but only the place to which they depart, and the condition of the punishment as eternal.

If these were the only two passages in Scripture that referred to the fate or consequence for unbelief (or being among "the wicked"), then, yeah, I would have to say eternal torment is just about the only realistic explanation. But they aren't. Far from it.

Here are just a small fraction - maybe a fifth at most - of verses that clearly describe the fate of the lost in words that directly refer to what will happen to the lost and the unbelieving, and there is really no reason for me to think they mean anything other than exactly what they say:

1. Psalms 37:20 - But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.
Without clear explanation somewhere in the immediate context telling me what these bolded terms "really mean", there's just no honest reason for me to think that this fate refers only to the wicked while they are alive on planet Earth or happens to "just their bodies - but the soul goes on forever" (two counterpoints I hear from traditionalists to verses like these all of the time when conditionalists point them out, based on pure presumption about the immortality or eternality of souls), or that they can still be consciously punished without end while being consumed or burning up in fire. In fact, all of Psalms 37 seems to be a tribute to the ultimate fate of the wicked (or lost), almost like the Bible is actively trying to make it unambiguously clear what will happen to them.

2. Psalms 58:8 - May they be like a slug that melts away as it moves along, like a stillborn child that never sees the sun.
I really have to ask why the Bible would ever use a term like "melt away" in any context if in hell you can never actually melt away from the consuming nature of the fire, but instead just live forever in the pain of burning.

3. Psalms 68:2 - May you blow them away like smoke -- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God.
Pretty much nothing new I can say there that I haven't said before. It's also clearly God that the writer of this Psalm is asking for Him to bring upon the wicked.

4. Isaiah 26:14 - They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.
Now my guess is that, even though Isaiah is a book of prophecy, this is still referring to the first death or destruction upon Earth for a certain group counted among the wicked. But the second death for any human is not worded in any different terms to describe the nature of one's fate in the lake of fire (and no, I don't see how Revelation 20:10 counts, as of all books in the Bible this is the one that finally chooses to bring out any words that clearly say eternal torment? This is the last book you want to be able to take literally in its entirety, and even then Rev 20:10 refers only to Satan, the beast, and the false prophet, not humans. When it gets to humans later on as they are being thrown into the same lake of fire, it is called the second death. Not as any kind of conscious, endless punishment or torment).

5. Malachi 4:3 - Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty.
How much more clear could it be? God does not even use the terms "ashes" in any kind of figurative way. He doesn't say "be like ash" or anything. He pretty much calls the wicked ashes at this point. Or in some translation, just "be ash". If in reality this is supposed to be a metaphor in which the wicked are only like ashes in that the righteous are stepping on them but the wicked in reality are still living the entire time in hell? Then this verse would mean that we believers are in Heaven the entire time gloating and mocking over the wicked's endless torment at minimum, if not actually being the ones who are "trampling" them by doing the torturing. And I really hope that it is not in the consciences of any traditionalist here that that is actually how it will happen, ... because if so, then they seriously need some professional help. Because that is not of the Spirit to actively want or perpetuate others' physical or emotional suffering regardless of who they are. It is messed up to say the least.

6. Matthew 28:10 - speaks of destroying both soul and body in hell (Gehenna). I really do not see how anyone can still say that only bodies die or are destroyed but souls endure forever whether in Heaven or Hell, after this unambiguous verse. Why would Jesus threaten only that God can or will destroy souls, if in fact He plans to do infinitely worse by torturing or having them tortured them endlessly in fire?

7. Romans 6:23 - says the wages of sin is death. Straight up. ... Not "spiritual death", not "torment", not even ruination (which could fit either the conditionalist or traditionalist view). The traditionalist objection here is often that 6:23 refers only to the first death. But if so? Why bother? Why bother mentioning this at all if the second death is going to be so much different from the first that it is actually an eternal state of living death in which you are tortured endlessly, much less not take this opportunity to mention the second death? Notice also that in this verse it says "but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord". Is eternal life not the final state of the righteous, those whose sins are forgiven and covered by the blood of the Lamb? Then why contrast it with the first state (and not the final state) of the wicked, if the traditionalist interpretation of this verse is that it refers to only the first death?

8. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power (this one is the KJV, by the way, which most Bible readers seem to really prefer).
I just call it as it is there. Everlasting destruction. Not everlasting destroying (a process in which one is apparently being destroyed forever but it never reaches a conclusion), but just a destruction that is final and you are not coming back from it.

9. 2 Peter 2:6 - if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.
An example of what will happen to the ungodly, and the phrase used to describe what will happen is "burning them to ash". If the people of Sodom and Gomorrah or the cities themselves are currently or will still be burning in hell without actually being turned to ash, well, I would say Peter is being misleading at best here. And they certainly cannot serve as an example if we can't see them for ourselves in hell being tortured.

__________

(Also, please note that if I sounded exasperated when I addressed traditionalist objections to my "proof verses" above, I was not directing this at you, specifically, Valetic. I am not even sure of what position you take, so I know you weren't trying to attack me or be condescending to me or anything with your challenge; you were simply asking :).)

Now, I got off the original point you obviously were expecting me to respond to, how to explain Matthew 25:41 and 46. My only point in listing all of the verses above is that those actually say directly what will happen to the wicked or what state they will be in.

Matthew 25:41 does not do that. It only says the fire is eternal. Whether the word eternal there describes the endurance of the fire or the fact that it came from the one and only eternal God? I do not know. But either way, it does say the humans who go into that fire will be eternal. That may sound like a stretch or a leap on my part, but only if it were the only verse in the Bible that says anything about the fate of the lost. If it's not definitive proof, and yet there are so many verses that describe the wicked's fate directly as death, destruction, or being devoured or consumed by fire, then conditional immortality - the stance that annihilationists take - has a good case.

Matthew 25:46 can swing either way. I have no trouble admitting that. After all, Christ Himself says it. Who are we to deny the words of the Savior Himself? I do, however, wonder why He contrasts eternal life with eternal punishment here, if in the traditionalist case it requires that humans are living forever in either state. It seems to me like being consciously tortured forever in hell is just another form of eternal life, albeit a miserable one. But I do know the view of life and death that most if not all traditionalists seem to hold, and that's all well and good. But if eternal torment were true I just think it would have gotten the point across better if Jesus had said "eternal bliss" and "eternal misery".

(And no, I am not trying to tell Jesus what He should say or how to say it - heard that smear a million times in some form or another from debaters on all theological sides, just in case anyone's thinking of saying it here; I'm just saying you can't expect conditionalists to immediately interpret these verses as eternal torment without question regardless of what so much other Scripture says. I just can't do it personally in good conscience. I believe in "letting Scripture interpret Scripture", just like anyone else, so I cannot hold the two verses from Matthew 25 above, the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and two passages in Revelation, and not much else, as definitive proof against so many others that say the exact opposite of eternal torment.)


.... And of course, I failed to keep this brief like I always say I would. Sorry. :(

I appreciate all the sitings and I've been studying it. There was one more that you didn't mention that I would like to get one final interpretation on. It's in 2 Peter 2:4 and most translations use the word "hell" but it's actually the word Tartarus which I think is the only time that word is used in the entire bible and Peter seemed to have been referencing angels that sinned in the pre-flood era.

Regardless, in light of all these things, I have not yet come to any conclusion on the affairs of the souls in the afterlife concerning the damned.
 
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SarahsKnight

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It's in 2 Peter 2:4 and most translations use the word "hell" but it's actually the word Tartarus which I think is the only time that word is used in the entire bible and Peter seemed to have been referencing angels that sinned in the pre-flood era.

Yes, I have always heard it was supposed to be "Tartarus" as well. And it sounds solely like a holding place, a prison, specifically for the demons who rebelled against God and fell from grace. If they are being reserved there for a future judgment, then I see little reason to believe that they are in the hell of eternal torment right now, in which they would be judged at the Great White Throne and then thrown back into the exact same punishment. :) But the day of destruction will come for them, in which all sin and evil must be completely eliminated for a new heavens and a new earth, and we all would be there too if it weren't for forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ, who offers immortality instead.
 
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Valetic

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Yes, I have always heard it was supposed to be "Tartarus" as well. And it sounds solely like a holding place, a prison, specifically for the demons who rebelled against God and fell from grace. If they are being reserved there for a future judgment, then I see little reason to believe that they are in the hell of eternal torment right now, in which they would be judged at the Great White Throne and then thrown back into the exact same punishment. :) But the day of destruction will come for then, in which all sin and evil must be completely eliminated for a new heavens and a new earth, and we all would be there too if it weren't for forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ, who offers immortality instead.

Here is something interesting too...

Mark 5:7

He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God's name don't torture me!"

Why did this demon beg Jesus not to torture it? o_O
 
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SarahsKnight

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He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God's name don't torture me!"

I had actually never heard this translation of it before. Without looking it up, I believe they had asked Him "have you come to torment us before the appointed time" in the KJV and NIV (I could be remembering it wrong, though). Which I readily admit, certainly more logically points to an appointed time of torment rather than an appointed time to literal destruction (although the latter is not impossible; if there is to be a conscious punishment before death, then it would certainly only make it that much harsher a punishment overall, even if the feeling of pain ends at the moment of one's death/destruction. Why did we invent invent lethal injection as a more humane means of execution of harsh criminals? Because given the choice, I think they would choose to simple lose their lives painlessly via euthanasia rather than spend a few moments before death feeling the pain of the electric chair).

But, either way, I imagine the light of Christ in that moment would be something of a torment to demons from the darkness who possessed that man. Mark 1:24 and Luke 4:34 use the term "destroy" instead when demons possessing a man cried in similar alarm to Jesus. I would not put stock in these verses taking a stance either way for the nature of punishment in hell, especially the nature of punishment for humans, who are different from demons. ... One thing I do know, Jesus did not torture the demons in any of these verses when they demanded to know if he had come to "torment" or "destroy" them before the appointed time. Rather, he banished them from their victim.

Jesus, my friend, is no torturer. Not the same Jesus who was willing to come down to our level, suffer our same temptations, and die an agonizing death upon a cross for the sins He never committed, bleeding for us who at first did not even want Him.:angel:
 
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Valetic

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I believe they had asked Him "have you come to torment us before the appointed time" in the KJV and NIV (I could be remembering it wrong, though).

This is how I always remembered it too, and I looked at all the translations parallel on bible hub and none of them had it o_O

I Will have to look in my interliniar when I get home.
 
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Valetic

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This is how I always remembered it too, and I looked at all the translations parallel on bible hub and none of them had it o_O

I Will have to look in my interliniar when I get home.

On second thought, it could be in another book..
 
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