How do you get saved?

Phil 1:21 · Jul 12, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Hello brother. I would invite you to the other thread on this subject, as there I am arguing from a slightly different bent, taking a closer look at Romans 8:12-13 in some of the later posts.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-do-i-actually-be-saved.8072098/

Thanks, I'll have to check it out.

expos4ever · Jul 12, 2018

justbyfaith said:
However, the Bible teaches that if you are going to put your trust in your works (i.e. seek to earn eternal life based on deeds), you had better be perfect in everything you do from conception to eternity (Galatians 3:10-13, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

None of these texts challenge my claim. The first two deal specifically with the Law of Moses, which only applies to Jews, and was set aside at the Cross anyway. So these texts are not relevant to a discussion of whether good works are needed for salvation for the general believer in our time.

And the Matthew text, while an exhortation for perfection, does not say that perfection is required for salvation.

expos4ever · Jul 12, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
Amen, brother. When I hear people preach of works-based salvation I have to wonder what, exactly, they think happened at Calvary.

I need to clarify; I an perfectly happy to agree that good works are really the evidence of what really saves: faith.

But the works must be there, Paul is crystal clear in Romans 2:6-7 that it will be our deeds that will be the criteria for final judgment, with eternal life on the line.

expos4ever · Jul 12, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
Amen, brother. When I hear people preach of works-based salvation I have to wonder what, exactly, they think happened at Calvary.

What “happened” at Calvary is an interesting question whose answer is not as simple as standard evangelical formulas might suggest.

justbyfaith · Jul 12, 2018

expos4ever said:
None of these texts challenge my claim. The first two deal specifically with the Law of Moses, which only applies to Jews, and was set aside at the Cross anyway. So these texts are not relevant to a discussion of whether good works are needed for salvation for the general believer in our time.

And the Matthew text, while an exhortation for perfection, does not say that perfection is required for salvation.

The law of Moses does not only apply to Jews. It defines sin for all of us (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4).

The law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). It does not only do this for Jewish people.

It also, was only set aside at the Cross, for those who have received Christ. And even then it is written on our hearts and minds who believe in Christ. For those who have not received Christ, they are still under the law.

justbyfaith · Jul 12, 2018

expos4ever said:
What “happened” at Calvary is an interesting question whose answer is not as simple as standard evangelical formulas might suggest.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4, But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, whom ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

justbyfaith · Jul 12, 2018

expos4ever said:
I need to clarify; I an perfectly happy to agree that good works are really the evidence of what really saves: faith.

But the works must be there, Paul is crystal clear in Romans 2:6-7 that it will be our deeds that will be the criteria for final judgment, with eternal life on the line.

All of us have done evil. Romans 3:10-18 and Romans 3:23. None of us have done good. Romans 3:12.

According to John 5:29 that means that we will all be resurrected to the resurrection of damnation; unless our sins are somehow not held against us. They must be washed away in the blood of Jesus. Then we also receive the Holy Spirit, who enables us to do what is truly good; and not just the best an unbeliever can offer, which is filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). When we offer the righteousness which is of God by faith, it is fine linen in God's sight (Philippians 3:9, Revelation 19:8).

When the dead are judged by their works on the final day, the books are opened and they are judged out of the books. But the book that will have the determining testimony will be the Lamb's Book of Life. If someone's name isn't written there, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:7-15.

A man's name isn't written in the Lamb's Book of Life because his good deeds outweigh his bad, as some people mistakenly believe (see Proverbs 14:12, Proverbs 16:25). A man's name is only placed in the Lamb's Book of Life when he places his complete trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2:16).

justbyfaith · Jul 13, 2018

Galatians 3:10 says, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse, for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Considering the fact that the law defines sin for all of us, and considering that as many as are of the works of the law are those who put their trust in what they do to save themselves; because in trusting in their works they place themselves under the law: since faith in Christ and faith in what I do to save myself are mutually exclusive in the Bible...I would say that this scripture teaches that all those who seek to save themselves through their own works must keep the law perfectly in order to be righteous enough to save themselves in such a fashion: since they are cursed if they don't continue in every tenet of the law to do them.

justbyfaith · Jul 13, 2018

Reaping time:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/a-sure-foundation.8069082/

Bible2+ · Jul 13, 2018

justbyfaith said in post #137:

If anyone is truly one of God's elect, having a living and saving heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10), so that it will endure to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22), that faith seals them in the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) so that they have eternal life, and shall never perish, neither can anyone pluck them out of God's hand (John 10:27-30).

Regarding John 10:27-30, it means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

justbyfaith said in post #137:

If anyone is truly one of God's elect, having a living and saving heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10), so that it will endure to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22), that faith seals them in the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) so that they have eternal life, and shall never perish, neither can anyone pluck them out of God's hand (John 10:27-30).

Regarding Ephesians 1:13-14, it, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

justbyfaith said in post #137:

Not only is never an absolute word, so that when it says they shall never perish, it means NEVER, but the quality of the life given is that it is eternal, or everlasting. Such a life can never end.

Possessing something eternal in itself does not require that someone will eternally keep possession of it. For example, imagine that one of the eternal precious stones of the heavenly city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:19) happened to be given to someone living now on the earth, and he kept it in his pocket. But after a few years, he got complacent about it, and sold it to a jeweler for a tremendous load of cash (cf. Hebrews 12:16-17). Does this mean that it was not eternal?

*******

justbyfaith said in post #147:

None of us have done good. Romans 3:12.

On their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while Christians cannot do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in Him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).

Also, Jesus has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for Christians to repent and confess their sins to God, and be completely forgiven, if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

justbyfaith said in post #147:

A man's name isn't written in the Lamb's Book of Life because his good deeds outweigh his bad . . .

Any Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5). He can ultimately lose his salvation, and be cast into the second death of the lake of fire (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14-15), if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26, Hebrews 6:11-12, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 24:9-13).

Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 2:13-14, and 1 John 4:4 do not contradict this. For these verses do not give any assurance that every Christian will overcome to the end. All that the 1 John verses give assurance of is that Christians can presently be overcomers. And all that Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, and Revelation 2:26 give assurance of is that those Christian who do overcome to the end will not have their names blotted out of the Book of Life, and will not be cast into the lake of fire.

An example of Christians "overcoming" (Greek: nikao: G3528) (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) to the end is found in Revelation 15:2, which refers to Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), instead of worshipping him to save their lives during his future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Christians will be able to spiritually overcome the future Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives unto the death (Revelation 12:11). But it is also possible for Christians to fail to overcome, and so in the end to lose their salvation from hell (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11), if they are fearful (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured and killed (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 2:10), to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus Christ and His Gospel, to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6), to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).

*******

justbyfaith said in post #148:

Galatians 3:10 says, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse, for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:2-25 means that all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should stop trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For Galatians 3:2-25 says that the works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are works of the flesh instead of God's Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2-3). And Galatians 3:2-25 shows that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to do the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law place themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10). And Galatians 3:2-25 says that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was only a temporary schoolmaster, which Christians, both Jews and Gentiles (so that Paul, a Jew, can say "we"), are no longer under (Galatians 3:24-25, cf. Romans 7:6).

expos4ever · Jul 13, 2018

justbyfaith said:
The law of Moses does not only apply to Jews. It defines sin for all of us (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4).

No scholar would agree with you - we should not even need to discuss this. It is clear beyond all reason from a wide range of Old and New Testament texts that the Law of Moses was given to the Jews and the Jews only.

Name one Biblical scholar - and I mean a real scholar with real credentials - who would agree that the Law of Moses was not for Jew only.

Off the top of my head, I can name three scholars who acknowledge the Law of Moses was for the Jews and Jews only: NT Wright, E.P. Sanders, and J.G. Dunn.

I will address the two texts you cited later on - they do not support this idea that the Law of Moses was universal in its scope of application.

expos4ever · Jul 13, 2018

justbyfaith said:
2 Corinthians 11:3-4, But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, whom ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Oh please. All I was doing was acknowledging the historical and undeniable truth that, over the centuries, and on into the present day, reasonable people have debated the meaning of the cross. It may well that there is "simplicity" in Christ. But this certainly does not prove that is necessarily easy to arrive at an understanding of what that simplicity entails.

JLB777 · Jul 13, 2018

GingerBeer said:
Some people say it is all God's work and YOU don't do a thing. Some say you have to believe and repent and God will save you. Some say that you have to work out your own salvation. A few say everybody is saved. So how do you get saved and is it all God's work, some your own work, or something else?

We are saved, born again by obeying the Gospel, (which is repenting) which is by grace through faith, because of God’s great love and mercy towards us.

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

This can be summed up with the word “believe”.

We are saved, born again, regenerated by believing the Gospel.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Again, believe carries the meaning of trust and commit to obey; hear Hid voice and follow.

He who obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB

JLB

expos4ever · Jul 13, 2018

justbyfaith said:
The law of Moses does not only apply to Jews. It defines sin for all of us (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4).

There is, of course, a sense in which the Law of Moses captures universal moral principles that apply to al mankind. But certainly the detailed prescriptions of the Law - temple worship, festivals, food laws - were intended by God to be limited to the Jews. More later.

justbyfaith · Jul 13, 2018

expos4ever said:
There is, of course, a sense in which the Law of Moses captures universal moral principles that apply to al mankind. But certainly the detailed prescriptions of the Law - temple worship, festivals, food laws - were intended by God to be limited to the Jews. More later.

These things were intended to point forward to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. They therefore still have application to doctrine in today's studies of the Bible (Matthew 5:17-20). And also, all scripture is inspired of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

I hold to the fact that if anyone is putting their trust in their works, they are under the law and are held accountable to the whole law...they are condemned if they fail to keep it in even one point (James 2:10, Galatians 3:10)...including the food laws of the Old Testament, and everything else the law entails. These things do not apply to the believer, because he is not under the law (Romans 6:14), is dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and is delivered from the law (Romans 7:6). However, the law is written on the heart and mind of every real believer in Christ under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16). For those who do not believe in Christ, the sins that they commit are still imputed to them...sins defined as being the transgression of the law. What law? The law of Moses, if you are going to be consistent...

justbyfaith · Jul 13, 2018

expos4ever said:
No scholar would agree with you - we should not even need to discuss this. It is clear beyond all reason from a wide range of Old and New Testament texts that the Law of Moses was given to the Jews and the Jews only.

Name one Biblical scholar - and I mean a real scholar with real credentials - who would agree that the Law of Moses was not for Jew only.

Off the top of my head, I can name three scholars who acknowledge the Law of Moses was for the Jews and Jews only: NT Wright, E.P. Sanders, and J.G. Dunn.

I will address the two texts you cited later on - they do not support this idea that the Law of Moses was universal in its scope of application.

Paul the apostle--if you count him as being a scholar. St. John the Beloved--if you count him as being authoritative. For they wrote:

Romans 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Now the Holy Spirit may not be a biblical scholar....but He would testify to you that these verses teach that the law defines sin for all of us; if you would only think on what these verses mean for just a few seconds.

Also, whose word are you going to heed? The words of men, or the word of God?

justbyfaith · Jul 13, 2018

expos4ever said:
Oh please. All I was doing was acknowledging the historical and undeniable truth that, over the centuries, and on into the present day, reasonable people have debated the meaning of the cross. It may well that there is "simplicity" in Christ. But this certainly does not prove that is necessarily easy to arrive at an understanding of what that simplicity entails.

The gospel is so simple that a child can understand it; and yet it is so complex that the greatest theologians cannot plumb the depths of what it entails.

justbyfaith · Jul 13, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Regarding John 10:27-30, it means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

Regarding Ephesians 1:13-14, it, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Possessing something eternal in itself does not require that someone will eternally keep possession of it. For example, imagine that one of the eternal precious stones of the heavenly city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:19) happened to be given to someone living now on the earth, and he kept it in his pocket. But after a few years, he got complacent about it, and sold it to a jeweler for a tremendous load of cash (cf. Hebrews 12:16-17). Does this mean that it was not eternal?

*******

On their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while Christians cannot do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in Him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).

Also, Jesus has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for Christians to repent and confess their sins to God, and be completely forgiven, if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Any Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5). He can ultimately lose his salvation, and be cast into the second death of the lake of fire (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14-15), if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26, Hebrews 6:11-12, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 24:9-13).

Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 2:13-14, and 1 John 4:4 do not contradict this. For these verses do not give any assurance that every Christian will overcome to the end. All that the 1 John verses give assurance of is that Christians can presently be overcomers. And all that Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, and Revelation 2:26 give assurance of is that those Christian who do overcome to the end will not have their names blotted out of the Book of Life, and will not be cast into the lake of fire.

An example of Christians "overcoming" (Greek: nikao: G3528) (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) to the end is found in Revelation 15:2, which refers to Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), instead of worshipping him to save their lives during his future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Christians will be able to spiritually overcome the future Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives unto the death (Revelation 12:11). But it is also possible for Christians to fail to overcome, and so in the end to lose their salvation from hell (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11), if they are fearful (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured and killed (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 2:10), to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus Christ and His Gospel, to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6), to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).

*******

Galatians 3:2-25 means that all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should stop trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For Galatians 3:2-25 says that the works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are works of the flesh instead of God's Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2-3). And Galatians 3:2-25 shows that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to do the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law place themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10). And Galatians 3:2-25 says that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was only a temporary schoolmaster, which Christians, both Jews and Gentiles (so that Paul, a Jew, can say "we"), are no longer under (Galatians 3:24-25, cf. Romans 7:6).

I would appreciate it if you would address the whole of my posts instead of pulling out isolated statements and trying to refute them.

I said: bold and red and larger for emphasis:

If anyone is truly one of God's elect, having a living and saving heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10), so that it will endure to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22), that faith seals them in the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) so that they have eternal life, and shall never perish, neither can anyone pluck them out of God's hand (John 10:27-30).

Not only is never an absolute word, so that when it says they shall never perish, it means NEVER, but the quality of the life given is that it is eternal, or everlasting. Such a life can never end.

Now this is not talking about a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm (Revelation 3:16) faith that is only based on an emotional experience (Luke 8:13) or mental assent to the tenets of the gospel (John 5:39-40), but it is speaking of a heart faith that is both living and saving.

Such a faith will always produce works if given the opportunity (Matthew 7:21); however it is not the works that save (Ephesians 2:9 and context, also Romans 4:5 and context, also Titus 3:4-7); but the living faith.

Again, if I am firmly planted in the ground (good soil) by my roots, I am certain to bear good fruit in the long run. But if I am uprooted and am seeking to bear fruit, I will not be able to, I am cut off from the nourishment that comes from being planted in the ground.

Likewise, all a plant needs to grow and bear fruit is to be planted firmly in good soil. You never see a healthy tree going "AArrrgghhh! I've gotta bear fruit!" No. It bears good fruit because it is a healthy tree that is nourished from the ground (by the doctrines of grace in the word of God).

Blood Bought 1953 · Jul 13, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Regarding John 10:27-30, it means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

Regarding Ephesians 1:13-14, it, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Possessing something eternal in itself does not require that someone will eternally keep possession of it. For example, imagine that one of the eternal precious stones of the heavenly city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:19) happened to be given to someone living now on the earth, and he kept it in his pocket. But after a few years, he got complacent about it, and sold it to a jeweler for a tremendous load of cash (cf. Hebrews 12:16-17). Does this mean that it was not eternal?

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On their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while Christians cannot do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in Him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).

Also, Jesus has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for Christians to repent and confess their sins to God, and be completely forgiven, if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Any Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5). He can ultimately lose his salvation, and be cast into the second death of the lake of fire (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14-15), if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26, Hebrews 6:11-12, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 24:9-13).

Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 2:13-14, and 1 John 4:4 do not contradict this. For these verses do not give any assurance that every Christian will overcome to the end. All that the 1 John verses give assurance of is that Christians can presently be overcomers. And all that Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, and Revelation 2:26 give assurance of is that those Christian who do overcome to the end will not have their names blotted out of the Book of Life, and will not be cast into the lake of fire.

An example of Christians "overcoming" (Greek: nikao: G3528) (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) to the end is found in Revelation 15:2, which refers to Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), instead of worshipping him to save their lives during his future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Christians will be able to spiritually overcome the future Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives unto the death (Revelation 12:11). But it is also possible for Christians to fail to overcome, and so in the end to lose their salvation from hell (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11), if they are fearful (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured and killed (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 2:10), to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus Christ and His Gospel, to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6), to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).

*******

Galatians 3:2-25 means that all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should stop trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For Galatians 3:2-25 says that the works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are works of the flesh instead of God's Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2-3). And Galatians 3:2-25 shows that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to do the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law place themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10). And Galatians 3:2-25 says that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was only a temporary schoolmaster, which Christians, both Jews and Gentiles (so that Paul, a Jew, can say "we"), are no longer under (Galatians 3:24-25, cf. Romans 7:6).

But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation

Anybody who thinks they are “ good enough” to merit salvation is damned—- count on it!

justbyfaith · Jul 13, 2018

Blood Bought 1953 said:
But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation

Anybody who thinks they are “ good enough” to merit salvation is damned—- count on it!

Our salvation is based on the merits of Christ alone.
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As the old hymn goes:

My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness, I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholly lean on Jesus' name.

On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand.
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There is the substitutionatry atonement and work of Christ; in which He applies His righteousness to our account, and our sins were applied to His account as He took our place in the punishment for our sin--

On another level, when we are born again, He comes to live in us, and this results in a practical righteousness as He lives His life in us and through us. The fruit of the Spirit is, among other things, goodness (Galatians 5:22-23).

That being said, we cannot become good enough in ourselves to obtain salvation...we are redeemed through the blood of Christ, which makes us good, but we are not redeemed by the fact that we are made good, we are redeemed through the root of the matter, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

We begin to place out hope in our own goodness and ability to keep the law to save us...and our trust is misplaced...we are following a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is the way of death (Proverbs 14:12, Proverbs 16:25). We, seeking to establish our own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. We have stumbled at that stumblingstone, seeking to obtain righteousness through the law rather than through faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 10:3-4, Romans 9:30-33.

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