2 thess 2:3 "Falling Away"? is it Blasphemy

TribulationSigns

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"national Israel" "covenant Israel". These are term you come up with. The woman is Israel. The text in Isaiah 9:6 says a "unto" us - not "for" us. So your question is not in concert with what the text says.

You have no idea who Israel is. Do you realize that Christ is Israel which we are his body as "woman" who is from above which is mother of us all? This is Israel! The national Israel was only a representative of the woman in the old testament period.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Wrong dispensation we are not under Gospel of Kingdom but 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
If you preach different then you are still cursed Galatians 1:8-9

If you do not believe in dispensations then you should build a boat like Noah and test your faith sacrificing your son like Abraham so you can be accounter righteous .

Ephesians 3:2

Can you please help me understand John 15:1-10

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬
 
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jgr

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Wrong dispensation we are not under Gospel of Kingdom but 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
 
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Chinchilla

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Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Matthew Mark Luke John are OT untill Jesus died . Our apostle is Paul.
 
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Chinchilla

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Can you please help me understand John 15:1-10

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬

Bearing fruit passage , now why you quote that ?

You won't ever understand the difference between bearing fruit and salvation unless you understand what Jesus talked about in Matthew 11:11

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Bearing fruit passage , now why you quote that ?

You won't ever understand the difference between bearing fruit and salvation unless you understand what Jesus talked about in Matthew 11:11

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

I think John 15:1-10 is pretty direct and self explanatory. Matthew 11:11 takes some interpretation of what exactly Jesus meant by the least in the kingdom of heaven. Of course there are many more scriptures to support John 15:1-10 like for example James 2:14-26. Both are saying that if someone doesn’t do works they will not be saved. That doesn’t mean that we are saved by works. James is saying we are saved by the type of faith we have. He mentions two types of faith in chapter 2. A faith that doesn’t produce works which is described as a dead and useless faith that is not a saving faith and a faith that does produce works that is a saving faith.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Bearing fruit passage , now why you quote that ?

You won't ever understand the difference between bearing fruit and salvation unless you understand what Jesus talked about in Matthew 11:11

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Here are more passages suggesting that believers can lose salvation.

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.


John 15:1-6


When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-21


Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.


Matthew 3:10


Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


Revelation 21:27


Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.


Ephesians 5:3-6


But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.


Matthew 25:31-46


Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!


Matthew 13:37-43


A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 24:45-51


All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.


Revelation 21:7-8


Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.


Matthew 18:3-10
 
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The Times

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Because those three passages are tied together by Jesus departing from earth at the Mt. of Olives and going to heaven; and Jesus arriving in heaven; and Jesus returning to earth at the Mt. of Olives.

You presented Acts 1:11 as your opening claim in post #148, to refute my claim in post #147.

My claim in post #147 was......

Jesus will come as a brilliant flash of light, when the first earth and the first heaven dissolve from his presence and he will blow the seventh Trumpet and to declare "Time no longer".

Jesus ascended into a cloud and was gone from the earth. Jesus arrived in heaven upon the clouds of heaven. I am not making an analysis of what all was involved in between, because there is no information given.

Your none reply to what is "a cloud" within biblical terminology is not adequate as a reply. Do you understand why it is not adequate?

You has stated that...Jesus will come as a brilliant flash of light, when the first earth and the first heaven dissolve from his presence and he will blow the seventh Trumpet and to declare "Time no longer".

That is not what I invented myself, but it is what scripture clearly and emphatically states as Biblical truth........

Keeping it in context to your post #148, that cited Acts 1:11, let us not beat around the bush any longer and to reveal how Jesus suddenly appeared to Saul of Tarsus (better known as Apostle Paul).

Acts 22:6
About noon as I was approaching Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me.

Remembering that the Acts of the Apostles is a chronological book of events, so let me please ask you the following question......

Did Saul of Tarsus see a natural cloud when Jesus re-appeared from behind the 3rd Heaven veil ?

Ezekiel 1:28
Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around.

What did Jesus say, his coming will be like?

Matthew 24:27
For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man comes.

Not forgetting what Matthew chapter 24 context is about, right? Right? ;)

Which I used the text of the bible to show what you stated is incorrect.

I do not believe that you have provided a compelling and sound argument of any tangible value, to even make the claim you had made in post #148, in attempting to refute my post #147.

On the positive side, I had provided you in post #150, a compelling and succinct explanation to what Acts 1:11 entails, to which other readers, with discernment can scrutinise to their hearts content.....

Post #150 link below.....

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-is-it-blasphemy.8072485/page-8#post-72934177
 
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Chinchilla

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Here are more passages suggesting that believers can lose salvation.

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.


John 15:1-6


When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-21


Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.


Matthew 3:10


Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


Revelation 21:27


Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.


Ephesians 5:3-6


But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.


Matthew 25:31-46


Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!


Matthew 13:37-43


A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 24:45-51


All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.


Revelation 21:7-8


Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.


Matthew 18:3-10

How long does a week last ?
 
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The Times

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Jesus comes not to inherit a piece of real-estate in the Middle East. Jesus comes as the brilliant flash of light to completely dissolve the first heaven and the first earth, at the final Judgement of the Dead, when the books are opened. (Revelation 20:11-15)

Apostle Paul does place two actions by Christ after the falling away from the faith and after the sons of Perdition are revealed from within the Church denominations and assemblies.

2 Thessalonains 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

1st Action (Warning shot across the Bow of the Wicked
Spirit of Christ's mouth, is through his Living Stones, the Elect who speak his truth, because the lies of the fallen enemy from within the Church, are consumed by Christ's truth.

2nd Action to completely destroy them, along with their earthly realm (1st Heaven and 1st Earth)
Destroying the wicked, along with the Earth (Extinction Protocol Event) is what Apostle Peter said would happen (2 Peter 3:10-13). The second witness to Apostle Peter is Zephaniah 1:17-18.

Remembering that this event that Paul declares as the third witness in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 is....directly linked to.....

The Day of the Lord
The context of Zephaniah 1:7-18 is.......
(1 Thessalonians 5:1-11; 2 Peter 3:10-13)

What does 2 Peter 3:10-13 say......

The Day of the Lord

(Zephaniah 1:7-18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11)

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of personsought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Christ's brilliant coming will signal the time of the Final Judgement of the Dead, where he will judge the Living (Elect remnant) and the dead, when the books are opened. (2 Timothy 4:1)

@Douggg I am afraid there is no real estate of any value to Jesus, in the place called Israel, in the Middle East, after the 1st Heaven and the 1st Earth are consumed by fire, never to rise again.

2 Timothy 4:8
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Apostle Paul and those around him who have long departed, look to that day, the Day of The Judgement of the Dead, when Jesus will return as a brilliant flash from the East, even to the West, to completely and utterly consume the 1st Heaven and the 1st Earth. As 2 Thessalonains 2:8 states, to destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Obviously Paul and those around him, are looking forward to that day, that is mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15, at the Final Judgement of the Dead, when the books are opened and the righteous Judge makes his final verdict concerning everything and everyone, at the final trumpet (7th), when time no longer is declared.

Satan, Hell, Death, Earthly kingdoms cannot continue at this point and all of them face the second death, that is the Lake of Fire.
 
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Douggg

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Your none reply to what is "a cloud" within biblical terminology is not adequate as a reply. Do you understand why it is not adequate?
This is a cloud...

upload_2018-7-12_20-13-12.jpeg
 
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Douggg

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That is not what I invented myself, but it is what scripture clearly and emphatically states as Biblical truth........
This, what you came up with.....

------------------.Jesus will come as a brilliant flash of light, when the first earth and the first heaven dissolve from his presence and he will blow the seventh Trumpet and to declare "Time no longer".

....unless you are parroting some equally confused person, yes, you invented it.
 
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Douggg

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Jesus comes not to inherit a piece of real-estate in the Middle East. Jesus comes as the brilliant flash of light to completely dissolve the first heaven and the first earth, at the final Judgement of the Dead, when the books are opened. (Revelation 20:11-15)

Apostle Paul does place two actions by Christ after the falling away from the faith and after the sons of Perdition are revealed from within the Church denominations and assemblies.

2 Thessalonains 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

1st Action (Warning shot across the Bow of the Wicked
Spirit of Christ's mouth, is through his Living Stones, the Elect who speak his truth, because the lies of the fallen enemy from within the Church, are consumed by Christ's truth.

2nd Action to completely destroy them, along with their earthly realm (1st Heaven and 1st Earth)
Destroying the wicked, along with the Earth (Extinction Protocol Event) is what Apostle Peter said would happen (2 Peter 3:10-13). The second witness to Apostle Peter is Zephaniah 1:17-18.

Remembering that this event that Paul declares as the third witness in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 is....directly linked to.....

The Day of the Lord
The context of Zephaniah 1:7-18 is.......
(1 Thessalonians 5:1-11; 2 Peter 3:10-13)

What does 2 Peter 3:10-13 say......

The Day of the Lord

(Zephaniah 1:7-18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11)

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of personsought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Christ's brilliant coming will signal the time of the Final Judgement of the Dead, where he will judge the Living (Elect remnant) and the dead, when the books are opened. (2 Timothy 4:1)

@Douggg I am afraid there is no real estate of any value to Jesus, in the place called Israel, in the Middle East, after the 1st Heaven and the 1st Earth are consumed by fire, never to rise again.

2 Timothy 4:8
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Apostle Paul and those around him who have long departed, look to that day, the Day of The Judgement of the Dead, when Jesus will return as a brilliant flash from the East, even to the West, to completely and utterly consume the 1st Heaven and the 1st Earth. As 2 Thessalonains 2:8 states, to destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Obviously Paul and those around him, are looking forward to that day, that is mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15, at the Final Judgement of the Dead, when the books are opened and the righteous Judge makes his final verdict concerning everything and everyone, at the final trumpet (7th), when time no longer is declared.

Satan, Hell, Death, Earthly kingdoms cannot continue at this point and all of them face the second death, that is the Lake of Fire.
Jesus returns in Revelation 19. Then in Revelation 20 is the 1000 year, millenium reign, then the Great White Throne Judgment, then the New Heaven and New Earth eternity.
 
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The Times

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@Douggg does that mean your line of reasoning has come to a screeching hault.

Wow....an actual natural cloud Ha (Acts 1:11)

Wow.... no valid or coherent reply from you to my post #172.

Well what can say....I need to seriously consider purchasing some real estate in the Middle East, because real estate prices will skyrocket when a messiah's spaceship lands on the mount of olives.

I'm just kidding!

The opposite will happen!
 
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The Times

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Jesus returns in Revelation 19. Then in Revelation 20 is the 1000 year, millenium reign, then the Great White Throne Judgment, then the New Heaven and New Earth eternity.

Please answer me, why don't you have a valid and succinct reply to my post #172.
 
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TribulationSigns

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This is a cloud...

You need to learn how to find God's definition for cloud in Scripture. It is not what you think it is.

Revelation 11:12 KJV
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Does that mean the two witnesses (Christians) will literally go up into heaven and be among the literal clouds? No. We go to Scripture because God defined the cloud as God's glory!

The cloud in scripture symbolizes God's Glory. I did not say that. God Did.

Exodus 40:35
  • "And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the Glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle".
Numbers 16:42
  • "And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared."
1st Kings 8:11
  • "So that the Priests could not stand to minister because of the Cloud, because the Glory of the Lord had filled the house of the Lord."
And many other such verses. The cloud signifies the Glory of God! This is a time of judgment upon this house when the priests will not be able to minister by reason of the Glory of God.

Therefore, in Revelation 11:12, when we read that the believers (aka Two Witnesses) are told to come out of unfaithful church, they are to come to heaven (kingdom) where God is, our stronghold, and they stand up from death in the streets of a great city (Church - Babylon the Great) and go into a cloud. It SIGNIFYING that they are in the Glory of God. God is now going to judge the unfaithful city desolate, and He doesn't want His people there to be caught up in it but commanded them to come out and come into HIS GLORY as the enemies beheld. In other words, the believers will then PROPHESY that the church, as a congregation all over the world, is under judgment because of the abominations. So they are now in God's glory to do so! That is why the enemies in the church beheld them and afraid of them! It is happening right now. The rapture is not yet until the seventh angel sounds few verses later in verse 14-15! That is why Christians will be HERE on earth to witness the fall of an unfaithful harlot (church) and when the judgment is finished, our last trump and the rapture will occur.
 
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