Earthly Sanctuary Proves Pre-Sinai Existence of God's Law

EastCoastRemnant said:

I had this posted in GT but thought it would get more response here. If you disagree with my premise, please keep it to the context of the sanctuary and it's existence in Heaven... thanx

When Moses was commissioned by God to build the earthly tabernacle, he was told to pattern it EXACTLY after the one shown to him that existed in Heaven. This is corroborated by Johns vision where he sees the ark of the testimony opened in Heaven and the Law found therein. This shows that the Law of God was pre-existent to Sinai, at least back to Creation and possibly to the beginning of time as we know that God changes not.

Click to expand...

In the beginning was the Word.

EastCoastRemnant said:

I had this posted in GT but thought it would get more response here. If you disagree with my premise, please keep it to the context of the sanctuary and it's existence in Heaven... thanx

When Moses was commissioned by God to build the earthly tabernacle, he was told to pattern it EXACTLY after the one shown to him that existed in Heaven. This is corroborated by Johns vision where he sees the ark of the testimony opened in Heaven and the Law found therein. This shows that the Law of God was pre-existent to Sinai, at least back to Creation and possibly to the beginning of time as we know that God changes not.

Click to expand...

God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil).

These Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated in the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still are in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more. Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?

Here are a list of verses:

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).


The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.
This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

EastCoastRemnant said:

I had this posted in GT but thought it would get more response here. If you disagree with my premise, please keep it to the context of the sanctuary and it's existence in Heaven... thanx

When Moses was commissioned by God to build the earthly tabernacle, he was told to pattern it EXACTLY after the one shown to him that existed in Heaven. This is corroborated by Johns vision where he sees the ark of the testimony opened in Heaven and the Law found therein. This shows that the Law of God was pre-existent to Sinai, at least back to Creation and possibly to the beginning of time as we know that God changes not.

Click to expand...

No, not at all. Biblically ( not Whitely), the sabbath was given shortly before Sinai to Israel as a sign between THEY and God. The law all of it, the first covenant, also between ISRAEL and God. Are you contending that the ark of testimony is the same as the ark of the covenant ? Interesting, since the entire law was carried in the Ark. Which means when opened, ALL of the commands of the law were inside, including, what as an SDA, I called the ¨ceremonial and health¨laws, distinctions I haven´t found in scripture. Of course, there is a sanctuary in heaven, but it isn´t made of wood, or in a tent, or in a number of ways like what was on Earth. So, where does the literality end and the symbolism begin, and more importantly, how much do preconceived ideaś effect what we perceive ?

Jason0047 said:

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

We are under a New Covenant, with New Commands. Granted, while certain moral laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are still in effect (i.e. They have been repeated in the New Testament), the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more.

(Here are list of verses):

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).


The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.
This makes sense because as I said before Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Click to expand...

Jason0047 said:

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

We are under a New Covenant, with New Commands. Granted, while certain moral laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are still in effect (i.e. They have been repeated in the New Testament), the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more.

(Here are list of verses):

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).


The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.
This makes sense because as I said before Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Click to expand...

Excellent. The law we are to keep is Christś law or the Royal law. Every one of the 10 Cś are reiterated or modified numerous times, but one. The one given to the Jews as a sign between THEY and God. It is nowhere to be found.

Clint Edwards said:

Excellent. The law we are to keep is Christś law or the Royal law. Every one of the 10 Cś are reiterated or modified numerous times, but one. The one given to the Jews as a sign between THEY and God. It is nowhere to be found.

Click to expand...

Thanks.

I updated the grammar and clarity of what I wanted to say within that post just now.

May God bless you.

Well, I am busy and do have a life outside of this forum. So if I did not reply it was not because I did not know how. I was merely showing you by Scripture that your ideology is not true to begin with (and so your thinking on the Ark in Revelation is not correct). Just slowly re-read the verses that I already presented (and you will see that we are not under the Law of Moses). We are under a New Covenant with New Commands. It's why Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. It's why Paul says that the Law is good if one uses it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8).

As for the Ark mentioned in Revelation 11:19:
This is the Ark of the New Covenant and not the Ark of the Old Covenant. It says the Ark of his testament. What Testament are we under? The Old Testament or the New Testament? The New Testament.

The Bible says,

7 "For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
8 But God found fault with the people and said:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:7-13).

EastCoastRemnant said:

Interesting that this supposed "missing Commandment" is mentioned multiple times in the NT, before and after the resurrection, I guess, you have just chosen to ignore that.

Do you propose that the Father and the Son have different laws? I thought Jesus says that everything He says is from the Father, that He says nothing of Himself, that the Father and Him are one? You do realize that when Christ mentioned the two greatest Commandments that He was repeating Old Testament scripture, right? To love God and our neighbour are the very premise of the Decalogue.

Where is the authority to separate one of the Decalogue from the others? If all 10 were written by God in stone, don't ya thing it would have garnered a mention in scripture that one was chiseled out? Come on, that doesn't even make logical sense. Why did the apostles, teach the gentiles on the Sabbath? Wouldn't that have been a great opportunity to showcase this "new", never before mentioned change of the Holy day?

When was it that God unSanctified and unHallowed the 7th day Sabbath again? Even just one verse would do, even though the Bible requires the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Click to expand...

Paul hints in his written works that we are not bound to keep the Saturday Sabbath.

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5).

Why would Paul say, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind in regards to the Sabbath?"

Paul says in Colossians 2 that Sabbaths are a shadow of things to come and that shadow that is cast is from the body of Christ. Paul says in Colossians 2 that we are not to judge according to Sabbaths or holy days.

16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
(Colossians 2:16-17).

If the Saturday Sabbath was in effect, Paul would never say something like: "Do not let any man judge you in respect of the sabbath days.

Also, Acts 15 deals with those trying to follow the Law of Moses as a requirement, and they concluded that they gave no such commandment (that they were to follow the Law of Moses).

Romans 7:6 says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

No commandment is given in the New Testament that we must now keep the Saturday Sabbath. On the contrary, the New Testament hints that we are no longer under the Saturday Sabbath command (although one can certainly keep it if they want to). But the Saturday Sabbath is no longer a binding command anymore. It was a command for Israel and not for the church. Jesus is our Sabbath rest now.

Hello Jason, nice to meet you. I have a few questions and comments for your consideration below.

Jason0047 said:

Just slowly re-read the verses that I already presented (and you will see that we are not under the Law of Moses).

Click to expand...

Which law of Moses are we not under (scripture only please)? You may need to be specific there are many laws from the BOOK of the Covenent. These however are not God's LAW, which are the 10 Commandments spoken and written by God on two tables of stone.

Jason0047 said:

We are under a New Covenant with New Commands.

Click to expand...

Indeed, what is the NEW COVENANT in your view? (scripture only please)

Jason0047 said:

It's why Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

Click to expand...

What law does Hebrews 7 say is changed (scripture only please)?

Jason0047 said:

It's why Paul says that the Law is good if one uses it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8).

Click to expand...

Which law is Paul talking about here and how is it to be used lawfully (scripture only please)?

Jason0047 said:

As for the Ark mentioned in Revelation 11:19: This is the Ark of the New Covenant and not the Ark of the Old Covenant. It says the Ark of his testament. What Testament are we under? The Old Testament or the New Testament? The New Testament.

Click to expand...

The word Testament and Covenant are the same word and mean the same thing. In the OLD Testament/Covenant the ARK of the Covenant housed God's 10 Commandments and obove the ARK of the COVENANT was the mercy seat and the presence of God. So the foundation of the Mercy seat and the presence of God was the 10 commandments. This was kept in the Most HOLY place of the earthly sanctuary which was a copy of the Heavenly..

What makes you think that the ARK of the COVENANT is not in the HEAVENLY SANCTUARY? God's Word is very clear about this...

HEBREWS 8:1-5 [1], Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such a high priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
[2], A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. [3], For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: therefore it is of necessity that this man have something also to offer.
[4], For if he were on earth, he would not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: [5], Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, says he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.

links to...

HEBREWS 9:1-8 [1], Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary. [2], For there was a tabernacle made; the first, in which was the lampstand, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary.
[3], And behind the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
[4], Which had the golden censer, and the ARK OF THE COVENANT overlaid round about with gold, in which was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; [5], And over it the cherubim of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. [6], Now when these things were thus prepared, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. [7], But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: [8], The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while the first tabernacle was yet standing

links to...

REVELATIONS 11:19 [19], And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and THERE WAS SEEN THE ARK OF HIS COVENANT: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

.............

Of course REVELATIONS 11:19 is referring to the ARK of the COVENANT as the earthly form of the OLD COVENANT was only a shadow or copy of the HEAVENLY and part of the HEAVENLY Sanctuary to which the earthly was poinitng to.

You may need to revisit the scriptures. God's Word disagrees with your teaching here.

The Ark of the Covenant revealed in Heaven is the same one that the earthly one was a copy of and is a part of the Heavenly Sanctuary and God's plan of salvation.

Hope this helps

Jason0047 said:

Paul hints in his written works that we are not bound to keep the Saturday Sabbath.

Click to expand...

Well that has absolutely no truth in it whatsoever. Paul never hinted anywhere that people are free to break any of God's 10 commandments. In fact, all through the NEW TESTAMENT we only see him proclaiming obedience to God's LAW through faith and by example he also kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath Holy as did Jesus and all the other disciples.

ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, WE ESTABLSIH THE LAW.

NEED MORE SCRIPTURE CLICK ME……

There is not one scripture in all the bible that says God's 4th Commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

Jason0047 said:

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5). Why would Paul say, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind in regards to the Sabbath?"

Click to expand...

Firstly, where does it say in Romans 14 or any book of Romans, that Romans 14:5 is talking about God's 4th Commandment Sabbath?

Romans 14 is talking about food and fasting connected to Holy days, it has nothing to do with God's 4th Commandment. In fact Sabbath vs Sunday was never an issue of contention during this time period.

Romans 14 is about esteeming different days over food and fasting not wheather or not to obey God's 4th Commandment which was never a topic of contention.

Jason0047 said:

Paul says in Colossians 2 that Sabbaths are a shadow of things to come and that shadow that is cast is from the body of Christ. Paul says in Colossians 2 that we are not to judge according to Sabbaths or holy days. 16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17).

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COL 2 is talking about the Shadow laws in ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT that are now fulfilled in Christ. The CONTEXT being circumcision v11-14 and the annual Jewish festivals and offerings. This has nothing to do with God's 10 commandments or the 4th commandment. There was also MOSAIC annual Sabbaths (Lev 23) different to the weekly that could fall on any day of the week attached to Jewish festivals.

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You have your Shadow laws from the Mosaic book of the Covenant mixed up with God's eternal law (10 commandments). You may need to seek Jesus and start studying God's Word for yourself now Jason.

Jason0047 said:

Also, Acts 15 deals with those trying to follow the Law of Moses as a requirement, and they concluded that they gave no such commandment (that they were to follow the Law of Moses).

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What laws of Moses was Acts 15 dealing with? It was not the 10 Commandments. Lets look at the scriptures at the CONTEXT and the whole topic and QUESTION the chapter is trying to address...

ACTS 15:1-2 [1], And certain men who came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YOU BE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES YOU CANNOT BE SAVED. [2], When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, SHOULD GO UP TO JERUSALEM UNTO THE APOSTLES AND ELDERS ABOUT THE QUESTION.

Q. WHAT WAS THE TOPIC AND CONTEXT OF CONTENTION in ACTS 15?
A. v1 EXCEPT YOU BE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES YOU CANNOT BE SAVED

Q. WHAT WAS THE QUESTION (CONTEXT) TO BE ADDRESSED IN ACTS 15?
A. IF the MOSAIC ordinance of CIRCUMCISION was a requirement of SALVATION!

ACTS 15 has absolutely NOTHING to do with the 10 commandments or God's 4th Commandment.

Jason0047 said:

No commandment is given in the New Testament that we must now keep the Saturday Sabbath.

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Well that has absoluetely no truth in it whatsoever. Every one of the 10 commandments are repeated all through the OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT scriptures.

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Now my friend please show one scritpure that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us a KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is (Romans 3:20; 7:7; James 2:8-11; 1 John 3:4). If we KNOWINGLY break it just like any other of the 10 commandments we stand guilty before God in SIN.

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SIN is still the same as it has always been which is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

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If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

Hope this helps.

EastCoastRemnant said:

Again Jason goes off track and does not address the Sanctuary question. How was Moses shown the Temple in Heaven to pattern the earthly after unless it was pre-existant to Sinai? The earthly sanctuary contained ALL the elements of the Heavenly, including the Law beneath the Mercy Seat of God. God did not make up the Law at Sinai, He gave it to mankind from the Heavenly Courts.

I know Jason, et al, don't have an answer to the Sanctuary question and can only reiterate the "hints" they see in the NT. Here a hint for them... the 7th day Sabbath existed since Creation and we are told in Isaiah that we will be celebrating it on the new earth as well. Blessed are they that do His Commandments and have right to the tree of life.

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Pretty scary IMO if this so called hint is wrong, considering God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is. (Romans 3:20).

Thats a pretty big gamble on your salvation and not one you want to get wrong come judgment day. especially when there is no scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

LoveGodsWord said:

Well that has absolutely no truth in it whatsoever. Paul never hinted anywhere that people are free to break any of God's 10 commandments. In fact, all through the NEW TESTAMENT we only see him proclaiming obedience to God's LAW through faith and by example he also kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath Holy as did Jesus and all the other disciples.

ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, WE ESTABLSIH THE LAW.

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There is not one scripture in all the bible that says God's 4th Commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.



Firstly, where does it say in Romans 14 or any book of Romans, that Romans 14:5 is talking about God's 4th Commandment Sabbath?

Romans 14 is talking about food and fasting connected to Holy days, it has nothing to do with God's 4th Commandment. In fact Sabbath vs Sunday was never an issue of contention during this time period.

Romans 14 is about esteeming different days over food and fasting not wheather or not to obey God's 4th Commandment which was never a topic of contention.



COL 2 is talking about the Shadow laws in ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT that are now fulfilled in Christ. The CONTEXT being circumcision v11-14 and the annual Jewish festivals and offerings. This has nothing to do with God's 10 commandments or the 4th commandment. There was also MOSAIC annual Sabbaths (Lev 23) different to the weekly that could fall on any day of the week attached to Jewish festivals.

DETAILED SCRIPTURE SUPPORT HERE CLICK ME...

You have your Shadow laws from the Mosaic book of the Covenant mixed up with God's eternal law (10 commandments). You may need to seek Jesus and start studying God's Word for yourself now Jason.



What laws of Moses was Acts 15 dealing with? It was not the 10 Commandments. Lets look at the scriptures at the CONTEXT and the whole topic and QUESTION the chapter is trying to address...

ACTS 15:1-2 [1], And certain men who came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YOU BE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES YOU CANNOT BE SAVED. [2], When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, SHOULD GO UP TO JERUSALEM UNTO THE APOSTLES AND ELDERS ABOUT THE QUESTION.

Q. WHAT WAS THE TOPIC AND CONTEXT OF CONTENTION in ACTS 15?
A. v1 EXCEPT YOU BE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES YOU CANNOT BE SAVED

Q. WHAT WAS THE QUESTION (CONTEXT) TO BE ADDRESSED IN ACTS 15?
A. IF the MOSAIC ordinance of CIRCUMCISION was a requirement of SALVATION!

ACTS 15 has absolutely NOTHING to do with the 10 commandments or God's 4th Commandment.



Well that has absoluetely no truth in it whatsoever. Every one of the 10 commandments are repeated all through the OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT scriptures.

SCRIPTURE SUPPORT HERE LINKED CLICK ME...

Now my friend please show one scritpure that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us a KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is (Romans 3:20; 7:7; James 2:8-11; 1 John 3:4). If we KNOWINGLY break it just like any other of the 10 commandments we stand guilty before God in SIN.

................

SIN is still the same as it has always been which is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

Hope this helps.

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Sorry. Acts of the Apostles 15 does not support what you say.

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

The blue part of this verse above here is saying that the Pharisees desired that it was needful for them to be circumcised.

The red part of this verse above here says that it was needful for them to keep the law of Moses.

Colossians 2:14 says Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. Then in verse 16 we read about how Paul says that no man shall judge us in respect of sabbath days, and other ceremonial old commands. Now, if the Saturday Sabbath was still a binding command for us today (Note: I did not say that Sunday is the Sabbath), then Paul would never say for us that we can judge no man in regards to the Sabbath like you are doing.

Paul says in Romans 14 that some regard every day the same and some regard one day over another. Paul does not end Romans 14 by saying that we should keep the Saturday Sabbath. In fact, there are Christians who deny the works of Paul as being divinely inspired because of this reason. They are called Ebionites. So no. I am not buying that the Saturday Sabbath is still a binding command for New Covenant believers. Sure. You can obey the Saturday Sabbath if you like, but it is not a binding command for Christians (Meaning: In the sense that if you do not stop from your work and worship the Lord from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, you are condemned).

Nowhere will you see any command stressing the Saturday Sabbath in the New Testament.
So while you can see Jesus, Paul, and others keep the Sabbath, it does not mean it is a binding command. Remember, Jesus needed to fulfill the Law, and Paul became a Jew so that he might win the Jews. Their attendance of the Sabbath does not equate with it being a binding command.

EastCoastRemnant said:

Shaky ground to be standing on. God Commanded it with fire, earthquake and thunder but you'd set it aside for a mere hint from Paul?

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When I say hints from Paul, I am saying they are like billy clubs hitting a person over the head letting them know the obvious (If they are open to seeing such an obvious thing).

Besides, you are not offering an alternative explanation to as to why Paul would say, "Do not judge any man in regards to sabbath days" or "some regard all days a like and others regard one day over another." These kinds of words for me are like blood and a dead body in a crime scene. They are clear evidences or clues to the truth.

You said:

Read verse 12 of that chapter... Paul is not giving license to sin but is saying that we are all subject to the judgement in what we have chosen. It is only God that can judge Righteously, it is not for me to say what will befall you in judgement but to merely tell you what the Bible says and leave your end between you and God.

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Verse 12 does not prove the binding command of the Saturday Sabbath. Nice speech but it does not prove that Romans 14 is saying that the Saturday Sabbath is still binding. On the contrary, Romans 14 strongly suggests that the Saturday Sabbath is not binding anymore because Paul says that there are those who regard all days a like and others who regard one day over another. Paul does not condemn those who regard all days a like. Surely this would be the time to say something to these kinds of people if they were wrong for thinking all days are a like.

You said:

These are all ceremonial references and speak nothing of the 7th day Sabbath. This referring to other men judging us when it is God who judges. Why did the apostles continue to teach and preach on the Sabbath to gentiles?

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You have an active imagination. Nowhere do the apostles teach to keep the Saturday Sabbath. Please list just one verse in the NT. You will not find one. Sure, you will find believers gathering in Scripture on Sunday (the first day of the week), and you will find believers who kept the Sabbath, but that does not mean it is still a binding command. We can keep the Sabbath, but it is not a binding command.

You said:

Of course he would because there is a monumental difference between the 7th day Sabbath instituted at Creation and the ceremonial laws God put on the Jews to teach them about His character (Law) and to point forward to Christ.

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No. Paul says we are not to judge according to Sabbath days. Yet, you are judging me according to a particular Sabbath day (i.e. the weekly Saturday Sabbath). So you are breaking Paul's command here.

You said:

The law od Moses was the ceremonial laws written by Moses and kept on the OUTSIDE of the Ark... God's Law, written with His own finger, was kept inside the Ark, under the Mercy Seat.

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While believers today are under a New Covenant (that went into effect with Christ's death), the New Covenant for Israel as a nation takes place on a different epoch of time in our future. For when you read about how God will make a new covenant with the house of Israel in Jeremiah 31:31, this is not going to happen here upon this Earth.. This new covenant will be made with Israel during the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ. How so?

"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31:34).

This will be a world will they will no longer teach every man his neighbor whereby they shall say, "Know the Lord: for they sall all know Him (the Lord) from the least of them to the greatest.

You said:

I would agree, noit only are we not to physically murder someone, but now we understand that even being angry towards someone is a violation of that Law, not the letter only but the spirit. Both are now binding and we gain the victory through Christ in us, the Hope of Glory.

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No. You are not getting it. Romans 7:6 says we are to serve in a new way and not in the oldness of the letter. You are still thinking we have to serve the oldness of the letter by the fact that the Law of Moses is still something we have to serve. Paul condemns circumcision in Galatians 5:2 by saying that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Circumcision is a part of the Old Law and not the New Law. Also, the temple veil was torn from top to bottom at Christ's death letting us know that the Aaronic priesthood order and it's sacrifices was no longer binding or in effect anymore. Jesus is now our Passover Lamb and Heavenly High Priest. The laws on animal sacrifices and the priesthood are no more. In fact, Jesus was not even a priest after the Aaronic priesthood order but he was of a different priesthood.

You said:

Again I would ask you to provide more than just a "hint" from God. The Bible doesn't say that Jesus is our Sabbath rest... you are assuming that from scripture that says that we are to rest in Jesus.

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Then you never truly understood this piece of Scripture.

8 "For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." (Hebrews 4:8-11).

Or this one,

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28).