Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Rubiks · Jul 12, 2018

AvgJoe said:
Matthew 25:46 (AMP)

46 Then these[unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”

If the eternal punishment of the unsaved doesn't last forever, then the eternal life of the saved doesn't last forever either. Someone who has ceased to exist (been annihilated) can no longer be punished, therefore, the punishment is not eternal, thus, the life of the saved is not eternal either. For this verse to be true, annihilationism has to be false.

Eternal punishment can simply mean "ultimate, final" (with no hope for a future resurrection) Hebrews 5:9 mentions "eternal salvation" yet we are not perpetually being saved for all eternity.

Rubiks · Jul 12, 2018

The problem of taking verses that literally imply annihilation as a metaphor for eternal conscious torment is that it makes ECT unfalsifiable as a theological viewpoint. If early Jewish viewpoints on the afterlife had been uniform on ECT this would be an acceptable exegesis, but we don't find that at all. Jewish beliefs on Hell varied a lot. Annihilationism was the most common, but ECT and purgatorial universalism beliefs were also held to.

Dorothy Mae · Jul 12, 2018

Rubiks said:
Eternal punishment can simply mean "ultimate, final" (with no hope for a future resurrection) Hebrews 5:9 mentions "eternal salvation" yet we are not perpetually being saved for all eternity.

I do not agree. Final is not eternal. It cannot mean that. Eternal is a word that specifies a length of time. Final is over shortly. And Hebrews 5:9 says Jesus is the author of salvation eternal. So yes, salvation is eternal. Relationships are eternal too for those who are there with us in the Kingdom. Did anyone speak of "final punishment" instead of eternal? If not, then one cannot simply change the meaning of eternal. They are not the same words.

Dorothy Mae · Jul 12, 2018

Rubiks said:
The problem of taking verses that literally imply annihilation as a metaphor for eternal conscious torment is that it makes ECT unfalsifiable as a theological viewpoint. If early Jewish viewpoints on the afterlife had been uniform on ECT this would be an acceptable exegesis, but we don't find that at all. Jewish beliefs on Hell varied a lot. Annihilationism was the most common, but ECT and purgatorial universalism beliefs were also held to.

No verses say eteranl annihilation. What you are doing in INTERPRETING "death" and other words to mean anniilation, a rather Hindu concept if truth be told. Jesus warned against eternal punishment. Warnede against it. Described it as very bad, not eternal sleep. Otherwise what the Jewish concept is plays no role. What Jesus thought it was is all that matters. He described it as very bad and no hope of ending. I would not be so quick to disagree with his warnings and comfort the wicked.

Rubiks · Jul 12, 2018

How do those who hold to Eternal Conscious Torment interpret Revelation 21 (NRSV)

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,

“See, the home of God is among mortals.
He will dwell with them;
they will be his peoples
and God himself will be with them;
4 he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away.

As we read in Revelation 20:13-14 (NRSV)

nd the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2018

SonOfZion said:
All ten are sighted in the New Covenant
There remains therefore a Sabbatismos for the people of Elohim. Hebrews 4:9
Strongs Concordance: Sabbatismos, keeping Sabbath

As I said before and you keep reinforcing. You seek out your handful of out-of-context proof texts and ignore the rest of the Bible.
Here is what Strong's actually says.

G4520 σαββατισμός sabbatismos

From a derivative of G4521; a “sabbatism”, that is, (figuratively) the repose of Christianity
(as a type of heaven): - rest.
Total KJV occurrences: 1

Funny, I don't see "keeping Sabbath." there

Institute for scriptural research translation. There remains therefore a Sabbath observance for the people of God.
Just because the translators were biased, Greek thinkers like you
Acts of the Apostles 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Where do these vss say that uncircumcised Gentile Christians were permitted in the synagogues. If uncircumcised gentiles Christgians regularly attended synagogues why were there house churches? Church is mentioned 117 times in the NT.

Acts of Apostles 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Says absolutely nothing about uncircumcised gentiles Christians attending the synagogue. Paul was a Jew and was permitted to reason with the Jews and Greek proselytes in the synagogues..

Acts of the Apostles 22:19
And I said, Adonai, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on Thee:
You're the worst apologist ever

I suggest you refrain from personal insults. Only time I will say this.
Do you really think this verses supports your argument that uncircumcised gentiles Christians were welcomed in the synagogues? Paul persecuted Jews who were followers of Jesus.
.....These passages certainly do not support the argument that uncircumcised gentile Christians were welcomed in the synagogues.
Acts of the Apostles 4:3-22, 5:17-42: Peter and John arrested by Sadducees, questioned by
the Sanhedrin, and flogged (5:40 only)

6:8-8:1: Stephen is arrested by "the people…the elders and the scribes" (6:12 NRSV), questioned before the Sanhedrin, and stoned to death, supposedly sparking a "severe persecution against the church in Jerusalem" (8:1).
8:3, 9:2: Saul (whose Roman name was Paul) imprisons many Christians
9:23-24, 20:19, 23:12-14: Jews plot to kill Paul
12:1-5: King Herod (believed to be Agrippa I) executes James and imprisons Peter
13:44-51: Paul and Barnabas being driven out of Antioch of Pisidia.
14:5-6: Jews and Gentiles attempt unsuccessfully to stone Paul and Barnabas
14:19-20: Jews stone Paul nearly to death
16:16-24: Paul and Silas are flogged and imprisoned by Gentiles in Thessalonica.
17:1-15: Paul and others are chased out of successive towns by Jews
18:12-17: Paul is made to appear before the Roman proconsul Gallop in Achaia, who
dismisses the case as an internal dispute. Sosthenes is then beaten by the Jews
19:23-41: Worshippers of Artemis in Ephesus riot against Paul and his companions, but they are not harmed.
19:27-28:30: In his final journey to Rome, Paul is taken by Jews in Jerusalem to be killed, but is rescued by Roman soldiers who imprison him. He testifies before the Sanhedrin (22:30-23:11), and the governor Felix at Caesarea (24:1-27) before using his status as a Roman citizen (22:29) to have his case heard by the emperor.
In Paul's second epistle to the Corinthians, he asserts that he had been persecuted by the Jews on numerous occasions (2 Cor 11:23-26 NIV):

SonOfZion · Jul 12, 2018

Der Alter said:
As I said before and you keep reinforcing. You seek out your handful of out-of-context proof texts and ignore the rest of the Bible.
Here is what Strong's actually says.

G4520 σαββατισμός sabbatismos
From a derivative of G4521; a “sabbatism”, that is, (figuratively) the repose of Christianity
(as a type of heaven): - rest.
Total KJV occurrences: 1

The KJV translates Strong's G4520 in the following manner: rest (1x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

a keeping sabbath #1 Meaning

Why you are the worst apologist ever, because what you say, and what the Scriptures teach is so easily disproven, like you set-it up just to be refuted

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 4520: σαββατισμός

σαββατισμός, σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath)

1. a keeping sabbath.

Where do false doctrines come from: 1 Timothy 4:1

all liars shall have part in the lake of fire.

Rubiks · Jul 12, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
No verses say eteranl annihilation. What you are doing in INTERPRETING "death" and other words to mean anniilation, a rather Hindu concept if truth be told. Jesus warned against eternal punishment. Warnede against it. Described it as very bad, not eternal sleep. Otherwise what the Jewish concept is plays no role. What Jesus thought it was is all that matters. He described it as very bad and no hope of ending. I would not be so quick to disagree with his warnings and comfort the wicked.

If Death doesn't refer to annihilation, why do most Christians hold to the idea of an "immortal soul?" It seems pop Christianity is inconsistent on what death is.

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2018

Rubiks said:
begin

<Rubiks>How do those who hold to Eternal Conscious Torment interpret Revelation 21 (NRSV)
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
“See, the home of God is among mortals.
He will dwell with them;
they will be his peoples
and God himself will be with them;
4 he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away.
As we read in Revelation 20:13-14 (NRSV)
nd the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.<end>

end

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2018

SonOfZion said:
The KJV translates Strong's G4520 in the following manner: rest (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usagea keeping sabbath #1 Meaning
Why you are the worst apologist ever, because what you say, and what the Scriptures teach is so easily disproven, like you set-it up just to be refutedThayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4520: σαββατισμός
σαββατισμός, σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath)
1. a keeping sabbath.

One Cherry picked source which is refuted by Strong's which I posted earlier and Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek. posted here

σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ (σαββατίζω; Plut., Mor. 166a cj.; Just., D. 23, 3) sabbath rest, sabbath observance fig. Hb 4:9 a special period of rest for God’s people modeled after the traditional sabbath (CBarrett, CHDodd Festschr. ’56, 371f [eschat.]).—S. on κατάπαυσις HWeiss, CBQ 58, ’96, 674–89. M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 909). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

aiki · Jul 12, 2018

https://www.christianforums.com/blo...e-of-eternal-conscious-torment-in-hell.53738/

SonOfZion · Jul 12, 2018

Der Alter said:
One Cherry picked source which is refuted by Strong's which I posted earlier and Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek. posted here

σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ (σαββατίζω; Plut., Mor. 166a cj.; Just., D. 23, 3) sabbath rest, sabbath observance fig. Hb 4:9 a special period of rest for God’s people modeled after the traditional sabbath (CBarrett, CHDodd Festschr. ’56, 371f [eschat.]).—S. on κατάπαυσις HWeiss, CBQ 58, ’96, 674–89. M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 909). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

The Literal meaning, Sabbath Observance,

Sabbaton - Sabbath (Noun)

Sabbatismos - Keeping Observing Sabbath ( A Nouned Verb)

The verb appears many times in the LXX and in all cases its meaning is "to keep the Sabbath"

Sabbatismos - A common word in the first century. (You don't think that the writer of Hebrews just made up a new word do you?) How was the word understood by those that used it? Every time it means to OBSERVE the Sabbath

Exodus 16:30 LXX

καὶ ἐσαββάτισεν ὁ λαὸς τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ ἑβδόμῃ (Sabbatisin)

Hebrews 4:9 4:9 ἄρα ἀπολείπεται σαββατισμὸς τῷ λαῷ τοῦ θεοῦ (Sabbatismos)

Various forms of it are used in the Septuagint (LXX) in at least four places (Exodus 16:30; Leviticus 23:32; Leviticus 26:34; 2 Chronicles 36:21). Each use in the LXX, when referring to men, refers to Sabbath-keeping/Observing

[Staff edit].

Dorothy Mae · Jul 12, 2018

Rubiks said:
If Death doesn't refer to annihilation, why do most Christians hold to the idea of an "immortal soul?"

I don’t understand this question. There is no concept of annihilation upon death for the Christian. After death comes judgement not annihilation. So we believe the opposite.

It seems pop Christianity is inconsistent on what death is.

That I can’t answer. Biblical Christianity and Judaism is death and judgement. Hinduism has annihilation.

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
begin

Looks like the punishment is eternal in duration and punishment in quality. Eternal sleep or annihilation is a reward for the wicked. It is what they are all hoping for.

end

That is how people, in this century, who have been indoctrinated in annihilationism interpret it but that is not how 1st century native Greek speakers understood it.

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew. Chap. III
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.”

Dorothy Mae · Jul 12, 2018

Rubiks said:
How do those who hold to Eternal Conscious Torment interpret Revelation 21 (NRSV)

Those who hold to eternal justice instead of the wicked escape all justice have no problem with any scripture.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,

“See, the home of God is among mortals.
He will dwell with them;
they will be his peoples
and God himself will be with them;
4 he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away.

As we read in Revelation 20:13-14 (NRSV)

nd the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Anyone whose name is not in the lambs book of life, for reasons listed elsewhere, is sent to eternal punishment where the worms don’t die and the fire doesn’t go out. Why do you think those who believe there is justice have a problem with this? You should cause no one is annihilated. They are sent somewhere, not disintegrated.

Dorothy Mae · Jul 12, 2018

Der Alter said:
Looks like the punishment is eternal in duration and punishment in quality. Eternal sleep or annihilation is a reward for the wicked. It is what they are all hoping for.
That is how people, in this century, who have been indoctrinated in annihilationism interpret it but that is not how 1st century native Greek speakers understood it.

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew. Chap. III
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.”

I agree and therefore annihilation is no punishment but will be considered a reward by the wicked.

SonOfZion · Jul 12, 2018

Justin also stated,

For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians (Dialogue. Chapter 80).

Justin believed in soul sleep, If you don't, don't even imagine you are a Christian. Which eliminates just about every believer

To deny it, was to deny the resurrection, similar to SDA, Jehovah's Witnesses

Justin did not believe that the Sabbath was set-apart from the beginning. Genesis 2:3

he believed that it first came into existence with Moses as punishment

He left Ephesus, went to Rome where he wrote to Trypho in 140

In Ephesus there were two groups of believers, those that kept the Sabbath, which Justin opposed, and his group which did not, not finding favor leaves to Rome.

Where all heresies are born, and becomes a saint of the RCC and Eastern Orthodox and the protesting daughters.

Dies with two others, called a martyr, more of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, thinking you know more than you do.

joseph smith is looked at by mormons as a martyr for their faith, just like christendom looks at him as a martyr for theirs. Acts of the Apostles 20:29

Whereas Polycarp, a disciple of John, His followers kept the Sabbath and the Feasts

https://www.worldslastchance.com/winds-of-doctrine/yahuwahs-feasts-kept-by-apostles.html

Polycrates, an early Christian martyr, learned from Polycarp, one of John’s disciples, to keep the feasts. When Victor sought to enforce the observance of Easter, Polycrates wrote him a letter in which he lists important Christian fathers who kept Passover, not Easter:

Therefore we keep the day undeviatingly, neither adding nor taking away, for in Asia [Minor] great luminaries sleep, and they will rise on the day of the coming of the Lord, when he shall come with glory from heaven and seek out all the saints. Such were [the apostle] Phillip. . . There is also John who lay on the Lord’s breast. . . . And there is also Polycarp at Smyrna, both bishop and martyr, and Thraseas, both bishop and martyr, from Eumenaea. . . . [Also] Sagaris,. . . .Papirius,. . . .and Melito. . . . all of these kept the fourteenth day of the Passover according to the gospel, never swerving, but following according to the rule of the faith. (Polycrates, Letter to Victor, Bishop of Rome, quoted in Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History)

Sam91 · Jul 12, 2018

I am not sure of my opinion. The Bible speaks of the second death but I recall the parable Jesus told of the rich man speaking to Lazarus from hell. He was begging for some water. So that speaks of an ongoing circumstance.

Whichever it may be I am sure that God is right in His Perfect Justice.

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2018

SonOfZion said:
Justin also stated,
For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians (Dialogue. Chapter 80).
Justin believed in soul sleep, If you don't, don't even imagine you are a Christian. Which eliminates just about every believer
To deny it, was to deny the resurrection, similar to SDA, Jehovah's Witnesses
Justin did not believe that the Sabbath was set-apart from the beginning. Genesis 2:3
he believed that it first came into existence with Moses as punishment
He left Ephesus, went to Rome where he wrote to Trypho in 140
In Ephesus there were two groups of believers, those that kept the Sabbath, which Justin opposed, and his group which did not, not finding favor leaves to Rome.
Where all heresies are born, and becomes a saint of the RCC and Eastern Orthodox and the protesting daughters.
Dies with two others, called a martyr, more of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, thinking you know more than you do.
joseph smith is looked at by mormons as a martyr for their faith, just like christendom looks at him as a martyr for theirs. Acts of the Apostles 20:29
Whereas Polycarp, a disciple of John, His followers kept the Sabbath
justin the heretic martyr

No, zero, none evidence.

Dorothy Mae · Jul 12, 2018

Rubiks said:
If Death doesn't refer to annihilation, why do most Christians hold to the idea of an "immortal soul?" It seems pop Christianity is inconsistent on what death is.

Death does not refer to annihilation at any time in the scripture. The idea of an immortal soul is the opposite to annihilation so I still do not see why you are asking this question.

Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

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