Are 'White Lies' ever okay?

Ken Rank · Jul 12, 2018

dqhall said:
You might check this website:
https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/lying-bible-verses/

Just to be fair then... since Abraham is counted among the greats of the faith in Hebrews 11, and we are his seed, and his promise still holds... how do you reconcile him clearly being a child of God and one who told a lie?

Let me try again.... make it more personal. You live in Florida and are retired, so I am assuming you have had children, maybe grandchildren now? Go back in time when your child was 2. Herod has given the order to kill all children 2 and under and they come to your house and knock and ask, "Do you have a child two and under here?" What do you do? Do you say "No" to protect life, or do you say yes and hand him over knowing he will be beheaded and you'll never see him in this life again?

Ken Rank · Jul 12, 2018

Allie Short said:
Ken brings up a fantastic point- excluding white lies to preserve feelings, we still lie all the time to kids. Is that okay?

The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy are all blatant lies, yet we seem to accept these. Most people tell their kids that these things exist, but if we should never lie, then we would be sinning by telling children that they're real.

And we can take it one further... what do we do here:

Ken Rank said:
Let me make it more personal. You have had children, maybe grandchildren? Go back in time when your child was 2. Herod has given the order to kill all children 2 and under and they come to your house and knock and ask, "Do you have a child two and under here?" What do you do? Do you say "No" to protect life, or do you say "yes" and hand him over knowing he will be beheaded and you'll never see him in this life again?

It is a dramatic question but anytime we have a doctrine, we should be able to extend it out like this and have it remain consistent. In other words, if we say, "No, I would never lie" and then say "no, there is no 2 year old here" we are not being consistent. Personally, for my two year old, my wife... or the Jewish family living in the basement wanted by Nazis, I would lie to protect their lives.

Kenny'sID · Jul 12, 2018

There is biblical indication some, what I would call "deception", is ok.

Genesis 20:1-3

1Now Abraham journeyed from there to the region of the Negev and settled between Kadesh and Shur. While he was staying in Gerar, 2Abraham said of his wife Sarah, “She is my sister.” So Abimelech king of Gerar had Sarah brought to him. 3One night, however, God came to Abimelech in a dream and told him, “You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken, for she is a married woman.”…

Abraham was deceitful there, and as I understand it, because if the king knew it was his wife he'd a killed Abraham. And it appears God had no real problem with that, and even told the king he would die for taking her in spite of the deception/him not knowing she was married. then ended up just telling him to give her back, or else. None of us were there to know for certain, but indication is the lie didn't bother God at all.

So to say something like, "yeah I love those, I can do this or that with it, very handy item" probably not so bad, if bad at all.

Kevin Snow · Jul 12, 2018

Allie Short said:
Thanks for all your answers! I appreciate all the feedback.

Again as white lies are usually in simple situations, here's another situation which is similar but not harder.

Say you meet someone who wants to spend time with you, but you don't want to spend time with them, simply because your personalities don't work well together. When they ask why you can't hang out, you can either lie and say you're busy when you're not, or tell them that you don't like parts of their personality, which comes off as judgmental and hurtful, especially when you don't know them well.

What do you tell them then? I would never want to hurt someone but if lying is not acceptable, what good truth can you tell them?

I'm now remembering my sins because of what you said here. I once had a friend like this who was so ADHD and just unstoppably annoying that people would make fun of him in the hallway at school just in passing and people would hit him for no reason. My group of friends took pity on him and accepted him in our group but I'm telling you this kid was bonkers. All day long you had to say, "Tom stop. Tom stop. Stop. Tom STOP." And yes, you ended up punching him to get him to stop.

One day I had older friends over who were some guy friends of my sister's when she was in high school and I was in middle school. We were all playing super nintendo and having a lot of fun. Then Tom comes over. We all stopped and I just couldn't imagine having him over with these really cool guys. So I..."got smart"

I went up to the door and I told him I couldn't play, even though that was exactly what we were doing. And then I made up a word on the spot in my head and told him, "We're having a berganzai right now and I can't leave. Come over tomorrow."(I pronounced it burganzee) I just couldn't tell him that I wasn't going to play with HIM even though I was playing with other guys. He challenged me and said "A what? I've never heard of that word. How do I spell it?" Immediately I told him without pausing, "b, e, r, g, a, n, z, a, i." He asked, "Burg-on-zai? That's not how you pronounce it!" I told him "It's polish" He said, "If I look it up in the dictionary will I find it?" And I told him "Yeah the Polish dictionary. Sorry I got to go. I'll see you later." And then I closed the door on him telling him goodbye.

Basically this is exactly what you are asking about and I'm telling you that so many years later, I feel bad for what I did now that I remember it. At the time we all laughed, "What did you say to him? A berganzai?" (burganzee as I pronounced it though I spelled it the way I did) And now it's become a word in my family for any excuse we make.

Even though we laughed and thought it was funny, I still feel bad about it after all these years. I was too afraid and unprepared to tell him the truth. I hope I can learn from this and not have to lie to make up excuses but that I can be open and honest with everyone about what is going on.

If you can remember all your sins you would regret them. So learn a lesson from me and prepare yourself now for honesty so that you can be honest when the time comes.

FatalHeart · Jul 12, 2018

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." -Revelations 21:8

Allie Short · Jul 12, 2018

FatalHeart said:
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." -Revelations 21:8

I appreciate your addition, and it makes sense. But what constitutes lying? If you tell your kids Santa Claus exists, is that a sin you need to avoid/repent of?

Ken Rank · Jul 12, 2018

FatalHeart said:
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." -Revelations 21:8

So, Abraham is a goner. Or... there is intent considered within the word "liar."

ubicaritas · Jul 12, 2018

Sometimes it is better to lie than to tell the truth, particularly if the other person does not have any right to the truth, or for other serious reasons.

ubicaritas · Jul 12, 2018

Allie Short said:
Ken brings up a fantastic point- excluding white lies to preserve feelings, we still lie all the time to kids. Is that okay?

The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy are all blatant lies, yet we seem to accept these. Most people tell their kids that these things exist, but if we should never lie, then we would be sinning by telling children that they're real.

I don't think the Easter Bunny or Santa are lies exactly, even if they are not literally true. Francis Church's famous newspaper article "Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" is one possible explanation for why this is so.

FatalHeart · Jul 12, 2018

So, "Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: 'So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.'" -Romans 3:4. Meaning it's not like anyone is going to exist who doesn't at some point lie or have lies in them. I mean, that's basically the sinful nature, but it also says, "Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body." Ephesians 4:25. Elsewhere it was echoed before in Leviticus, "You must not steal. You must not lie or deceive one another." So it's obvious Jesus isn't saying anyone who lies is going to hell no matter what, but what it is conveying is just what the rest of the book conveys, that you should put off falsehood and speak the truth. "Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God." Ephesians 4:25. "Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: ... in truthful speech and in the power of God;" So, no, you shouldn't lie or deceive. We can posit places where we would lie, to save a life, and I am guilty of that in certain respects. Whether it will be judged or not, how I felt, I would always do it again the same way, or, maybe, because of the peculiar instance, speak the truth and leave the decision in the hand of the weaker person. XD But I'm sure since God doesn't lie and God is truth that lies aren't something from God. Because Jesus makes such a stern statement it would be wise to go through the rest of the book and do a study on it if you are having issues finding a line.

Ken Rank · Jul 12, 2018

ubicaritas said:
I don't think the Easter Bunny or Santa are lies exactly, even if they are not literally true. Francis Church's famous newspaper article "Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" is one possible explanation for why this is so.

Respectfully... if Santa isn't real and doesn't visit our homes, then when we tell our children that we are not telling the truth. Now, whether "not telling the truth" falls into the category of "lie" is your call based on your own convictions. But, whatever you decide, that story remains "not the truth."

Kaon · Jul 12, 2018

Ken Rank said:
Can you show me where the bible says don't lie? Please don't grab "bearing false witness" because that is not the same and I can explain why if you need me to. Remember, Abraham lied about Sarah being his wife.

Now, I am not advocating lying folks... but if you are going to say "we can never lie" then I would suggest, especially if you are a parent, that you are already a liar. A lie is telling a untruth, and so if you lied to your child because the content of something they were about to see was beyond their years and you wanted to protect them from it... you still lied. If you told them Santa Claus was real, you lied. If you told them the zit on their face didn't look bad when you knew it did, you lied.

What if a Nazi came to your door almost 80 years ago and asked if you had Jews hiding in your basement? If you said no, when you did have them, you lied EVEN THOUGH the lie protected life because you knew the real question was, "are you hiding Jews we can kill?"

The Lord hates lying lips, but those who speak the truth are His joy. - Proverbs 12:22

Do not let kindness and truth leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart. So you will find favor and good repute in the sight of God and man - Proverbs 3:3-4

But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken falsehood, your tongue mutters wickedness - Isaiah 59:2-3

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies - John 8:44

You destroy those who speak falsehood; the Lord abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit - Psalms 5:6

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death - Revelation 21:8

When we lie, we dissolve our faith in the Most High God. Everyone has a day to be delivered, but if it isn't that day, the Most High God will 1) stop the movement of the heavens, 2) level an entire empire, 3) prevent the burn of fire, and 4) soften the heart of beasts sent to destroy us if He needs to.

ubicaritas · Jul 12, 2018

Ken Rank said:
Respectfully... if Santa isn't real and doesn't visit our homes, then when we tell our children that we are not telling the truth. Now, whether "not telling the truth" falls into the category of "lie" is your call based on your own convictions. But, whatever you decide, that story remains "not the truth."

Have you ever read, "Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus"?

Truth doesn't always have to do with verifiable facticity. For some people, their conceptualization of truth is known through idealism or romanticism rather than positivism.

Halbhh · Jul 12, 2018

Allie Short said:
I've been reading through former threads on lying, but those situations always seem life or death, like 'if I'm hiding fugitives is it okay to lie to the bad guys' kind of scenarios.

I've read some scripture that says to either tell the truth or be silent- but I had a situation recently where it was difficult to do either.

So say in a hypothetical situation, someone gets you a Christmas present that you already bought for yourself a few weeks ago. After Christmas, you haven't touched it and they ask you if you've used it yet- but you've used yours.

According to the scripture, you can either stay silent, which would be awkward and confusing, or you can tell the truth- no, and you won't use it because you bought it yourself.

The third option is a half-lie half-truth; you've used the item, but not the one they got for you.

Both biblical options have the potential to hurt the other person's feelings, which is why I'm struggling to come up with an answer for this.

Any opinions on this? I know the situation is small and somewhat silly, but that's when a lot of 'white lies' come around. I know white lies are still lying, but what would the correct option be when the truth can come off as hurtful?

There is a principle form Christ that is so much better to gain than even the best personal practice answer someone else may give.

Here's the way to know for any situation seemingly complex what is the right or wrong of it --

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you, for this sums up the law and the prophets."
--Christ Jesus our Lord in Matthew 7:12

You merely have to imagine yourself in their situation. Reverse the roles.

That's all.

So for your situation in question, merely put yourself in their shoes -- with the reverse role, we imagine you gave them the redundant gift, and now imagine the answer you'd most want them to say to you.

For me, reversing the roles and asking myself 'what would I want from them', then I know instantly what I want the most is for them to be warm and friendly.

Therefore, myself I want them to tell me whatever part of the real information they want, but the crucial thing is that they are warm and friendly and loving.

Shoot, I'd be delighted even for them to say "That gift was crap!" and laugh, as long as I can feel they love me, and we are smiling, laughing together! See?

(Also, loving others is itself the 2nd greatest commandment, Christ said.)

Real lies break the rule Christ said in Matthew 7:12.

If you merely give someone an overly positive comment about whatever, we all know that not what people call a "lie" (except humorously, as a joke).

An actual "lie" (the real thing) is when a person says what they know is false in order to put someone else at a disadvantage or put oneself at an advantage relative to them, even just in terms of information. Of course some things people call "white lies" can indeed be real lies, by this measure. And some of them not. A real lie is somewhat like theft -- stealing what isn't ours. The rule for all situations is consistently Mat 7:12. Christ knew we would need this principle.

salt-n-light · Jul 12, 2018

Allie Short said:
I've been reading through former threads on lying, but those situations always seem life or death, like 'if I'm hiding fugitives is it okay to lie to the bad guys' kind of scenarios.

I've read some scripture that says to either tell the truth or be silent- but I had a situation recently where it was difficult to do either.

So say in a hypothetical situation, someone gets you a Christmas present that you already bought for yourself a few weeks ago. After Christmas, you haven't touched it and they ask you if you've used it yet- but you've used yours.

According to the scripture, you can either stay silent, which would be awkward and confusing, or you can tell the truth- no, and you won't use it because you bought it yourself.

The third option is a half-lie half-truth; you've used the item, but not the one they got for you.

Both biblical options have the potential to hurt the other person's feelings, which is why I'm struggling to come up with an answer for this.

Any opinions on this? I know the situation is small and somewhat silly, but that's when a lot of 'white lies' come around. I know white lies are still lying, but what would the correct option be when the truth can come off as hurtful?

It depends on how much of a necessity to provide information.

Do I need to even talk to the bad guys?

Do I need to jump on telling information for the sake of being transparent?

It would be case by case. I don’t support white lies, it’s still a lie, but not every situation calls for being transparent. Like the gift yeah no harm in telling them the truth even if it’s sucks. But at other times, if they didn’t ask, then I don’t know how wise it would be to cause more concern than it needs to.

Especially thoughts, everyday I’m faced with a situation that although I can point out truth, even if there’s an opportunity that I can speak from my heart and be honest, some instances it’s wiser to refrain, or to give it time, and some it’s wiser to just speak up. Everyone would have to just discern when it’s needed.

So yeah I agree be silent or tell the truth.

BNR32FAN · Jul 12, 2018

Allie Short said:
I've been reading through former threads on lying, but those situations always seem life or death, like 'if I'm hiding fugitives is it okay to lie to the bad guys' kind of scenarios.

I've read some scripture that says to either tell the truth or be silent- but I had a situation recently where it was difficult to do either.

So say in a hypothetical situation, someone gets you a Christmas present that you already bought for yourself a few weeks ago. After Christmas, you haven't touched it and they ask you if you've used it yet- but you've used yours.

According to the scripture, you can either stay silent, which would be awkward and confusing, or you can tell the truth- no, and you won't use it because you bought it yourself.

The third option is a half-lie half-truth; you've used the item, but not the one they got for you.

Both biblical options have the potential to hurt the other person's feelings, which is why I'm struggling to come up with an answer for this.

Any opinions on this? I know the situation is small and somewhat silly, but that's when a lot of 'white lies' come around. I know white lies are still lying, but what would the correct option be when the truth can come off as hurtful?

I don’t think it would hurt someone’s feelings if you haven’t used a gift because you already had one. The best thing to do would’ve been to immediately say oh wow thanks I bought one of these a while back and I use it all the time. It’s not hurtful to say that you already have one this happens all the time.

Martyr's Crown · Jul 12, 2018

Dave L said:
If asked about hiding Jews in your attic in Nazi Germany, would you answer yes or no? Love would answer No. But legalism would answer Yes.

I used to think it was okay to lie when hiding jews during the second world war, but now I think it could have gone differently. There was an incident where one Christian lady hiding jews in her home was asked about whether she was hiding any jews, she said Yes, and they couldn't find them. As God was protecting them.

I believe the same would go for anyone telling the truth, or you would be sure God would be taking care of them.

fat wee robin · Jul 12, 2018

Dave L said:
If asked about hiding Jews in your attic in Nazi Germany, would you answer yes or no? Love would answer No. But legalism would answer Yes.

I am alive because I lied ,and I do not apologise for that . Lying is sometimes a neccessary survival tool .
Are you going to tell your children that you are not at home ,when a stranger turns up at the door ? Sometimes I despair of christians who do not think through the conseqences of what they believe is correct .
Lying about others is False witness , and always wrong .Lying to save yourself or your family is correct in many circumstances ,and none of these naive people would be alive if they or their ancestors had not lied .
Lying when you have commited a crime, adds to your fault , as it involves others .

fat wee robin · Jul 12, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
I'm now remembering my sins because of what you said here. I once had a friend like this who was so ADHD and just unstoppably annoying that people would make fun of him in the hallway at school just in passing and people would hit him for no reason. My group of friends took pity on him and accepted him in our group but I'm telling you this kid was bonkers. All day long you had to say, "Tom stop. Tom stop. Stop. Tom STOP." And yes, you ended up punching him to get him to stop.

One day I had older friends over who were some guy friends of my sister's when she was in high school and I was in middle school. We were all playing super nintendo and having a lot of fun. Then Tom comes over. We all stopped and I just couldn't imagine having him over with these really cool guys. So I..."got smart"

I went up to the door and I told him I couldn't play, even though that was exactly what we were doing. And then I made up a word on the spot in my head and told him, "We're having a berganzai right now and I can't leave. Come over tomorrow."(I pronounced it burganzee) I just couldn't tell him that I wasn't going to play with HIM even though I was playing with other guys. He challenged me and said "A what? I've never heard of that word. How do I spell it?" Immediately I told him without pausing, "b, e, r, g, a, n, z, a, i." He asked, "Burg-on-zai? That's not how you pronounce it!" I told him "It's polish" He said, "If I look it up in the dictionary will I find it?" And I told him "Yeah the Polish dictionary. Sorry I got to go. I'll see you later." And then I closed the door on him telling him goodbye.

Basically this is exactly what you are asking about and I'm telling you that so many years later, I feel bad for what I did now that I remember it. At the time we all laughed, "What did you say to him? A berganzai?" (burganzee as I pronounced it though I spelled it the way I did) And now it's become a word in my family for any excuse we make.

Even though we laughed and thought it was funny, I still feel bad about it after all these years. I was too afraid and unprepared to tell him the truth. I hope I can learn from this and not have to lie to make up excuses but that I can be open and honest with everyone about what is going on.

If you can remember all your sins you would regret them. So learn a lesson from me and prepare yourself now for honesty so that you can be honest when the time comes.

Well you see I would never lie like that to someone ,as I think it is cruel ,so it is wrong very .
But that then leads to the reason for the lie . As for the 'present story' ,one just needs to say thankyou , that's all .

Martyr's Crown · Jul 12, 2018

Considering what is told about Abraham, we really don't know about whether pharao would have killed him if he did tell the truth about Sarah being his wife.

Also keep in mind; Since he was considered a righteous man before God's eyes, don't you believe God would have protected him from getting killed and instead made pharao showing favour towards Abraham? He has done this before with one of his prophets, he made the king show him favour when he came to his kingdom.

"this Ezra came up from Babylon: and was a skilled scribe in the Law of Moses, which the Lord God of Israel had given. The king granted him all his request, according to the hand of the Lord his God upon him". (Ezra 7:6)

I don't think God was pleased with Abraham lying to pharao, as he could also have trusted God instead of lying at this time. This does show us Abraham was a fellow human who got frightened for his life and maybe doubted a bit in God's protection being over him and his wife? It still doesn't mean it was right, and it doesn't show God approved of this as fine either.

In the 10 Commandments it also tells us that we shouldn't "Lie", so this makes it clear for us that God isn't pleased with anyone who lies. He is also the Truth.

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