Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

Biblewriter · Jul 12, 2018

Dave L said:
So, we have more than one "end" of the world?

There are numerous ends of ages, which is the literal translation of the Greek word incorrectly rendered end of the "world."

Biblewriter · Jul 12, 2018

claninja said:
According to the book of Ezekiel, Gog, who was from Magog, was the chief prince of meshech and tubal
Ezekiel 38:2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal

Meschech and Tubal were merchant cities for Tyre:
Ezekiel 27:13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech were your merchants. They exchanged slaves and bronze utensils for your merchandise

Meschech was not a place of peace
Psalm 120:5-6 Woe to me, that I sojourn in Meshech, that I dwell among the tents of Kedar! Too long have I had my dwelling among those who hate peace.

-The oxford Bible places meshech and tubal in asia minor
-the Zondervan illustrated bible states the land of magog was in asia minor
-the new unger's bible dictionary places magog in turkey (asia minor)
-the new bible dictionary places meschech and tubal in asia minor

-ancient greek historian, Herodotus, places meschech and tubal in asia minor
-Hippolytus of rome connects magog to asia minor
-pliny the elder connects magog with asia minor.

As we can see, the evidence points that meschech and tubal were merchant cities located in asia minor during the time that Ezekiel received this vision. There are also several references that place magog in asia minor. It would be fair to say that Gog, from magog, was some kind of authority who was a ruler of meshech and tubal. I do not know if Gog was a human leader or some sort of spiritual being, and I do not wish to identify any further than that which the Bible doesn't identify.

I do not know detail by detail how Ezekiel 38-39 is/was fulfilled. So I don't wish to impose a personal understanding on the text, line by line. There are many, many different interpretations by full preterists, partial preterists, amils, premils, postmils,etc......none of them prove 100% how Ezekiel 38-39 is/was/or will be fulfilled.

But what I do know is:

1.) Gog, from the land of magog, was an authority over meschech and tubal, in Asian minor.

2.) Magog, Meshech, and tubal are no longer cities or kingdoms in asia minor, nor were they by the 1st century.

3.) God poured out his spirit in the last days at pentacost:

Acts 2:15-17
These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Meshech and Tubal were indeed in Asia minor during ancient times. But in the eleventh century or so, when the Turks invaded, almost the entire population fled before their advance. As they were coming from the south, the only path of escape was to the north, into what is currently Russia. This is recorded in detail in the book "Colophons of Armenian Manuscripts, 1301-1480,” by Avedias K. Sanjian, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1969. (A colophon is a note added at the beginning or end of a manuscript, telling who copied it. These are of historical interest because they often included comments about the conditions under which the manuscript was copied.)

Biblewriter · Jul 12, 2018

Dave L said:
If the "pre-trib Rapture" is biblical, it should have scripture directly supporting it. And no such scripture exists.

All theories about the timing of the rapture are based on interpretation. For although the Bible very explicitly says it will take place, it simply does not state when it will take place, in relation to other end time events.

Biblewriter · Jul 12, 2018

Dave L said:
Please produce scripture saying there is another rapture before the one Paul mentions.

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52)

“For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15)

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

Remember not to add to Revelation or take away. And not one passage teaches the pre-trib rapture view.

Nor does any such passage teach any other view of its timing. All arguments about a different timing for the rapture are based on a rank assumption that "the rapture" and the day of Christ's coming in power and glory to judge the world are the same event.

Biblewriter · Jul 12, 2018

Dave L said:
If Lahaye, Walvoord and others cannot support the pre-trib rapture theory with scripture, I don't know who can.

Actually, they do, all of them, support it by scripture. They simply admit, as you do not seem to admit, that their interpretation of its timing is based on interpretation, rather than on directly stated scripture.

Dave L · Jul 12, 2018

Biblewriter said:
Nor does any such passage teach any other view of its timing. All arguments about a different timing for the rapture are based on a rank assumption that "the rapture" and the day of Christ's coming in power and glory to judge the world are the same event.

Thanks for sharing. I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying. But I believe the resurrection happens first on the last day, followed by what people call the rapture. Then followed by the resurrection of the wicked, ushering the New Heavens and earth.

Dave L · Jul 12, 2018

Biblewriter said:
Actually, they do, all of them, support is by scripture. They simply admit, as you do not seem to admit, that their interpretation of its timing is based on interpretation, rather than on directly stated scripture.

Walvoord and LaHay admit in writing that no direct statement of scripture teaches a Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, or Post-Trib rapture. I posted direct quotes earlier but can reproduce them if needed.

seventysevens · Jul 12, 2018

Dave L said:
Thanks for sharing. I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying. But I believe the resurrection happens first on the last day, followed by what people call the rapture. Then followed by the resurrection of the wicked, ushering the New Heavens and earth.

You'll need to study the First Fruits harvests , Barley harvest , and wheat harvest to understand that the Resurrection that Paul spoke of in Thess 4 is not on the last day , you do not know nor understand why the rapture happens , the resurrection of the wicked happens after satan and death are cast into the lake of fire,explicitly for judgment then they are cast into the lake of fire

Biblewriter · Jul 12, 2018

Dave L said:
There are no Direct Scripture References supporting the pre-trib rapture. You are on the same footing as any other cult that reads into scripture things that are not there.

And when you claim that the rapture will not be before the seventieth week, you are doing exactly the same thing.

Dave L · Jul 12, 2018

Biblewriter said:
All theories about the timing of the rapture are based on interpretation. For although the Bible very explicitly says it will take place, it simply does not state when it will take place, in relation to other end time events.

It takes place after the dead in Christ are raised.

“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

The gospels teach the resurrection happens on the last day.

seventysevens · Jul 12, 2018

Dave L · Jul 12, 2018

Biblewriter said:
And when you claim that the rapture will not be before the seventieth week, you are doing exactly the same thing.

There is no gap in the 70 weeks. If there were, they would not be 70 weeks.

Dave L · Jul 12, 2018

seventysevens said:
You'll need to study the First Fruits harvests , Barley harvest , and wheat harvest to understand that the Resurrection that Paul spoke of in Thess 4 is not on the last day , you do not know nor understand why the rapture happens , the resurrection of the wicked happens after satan and death are cast into the lake of fire,explicitly for judgment then they are cast into the lake of fire

The resurrection happens at the end of the world, followed by the rapture, followed by the New Heavens and earth.

seventysevens · Jul 12, 2018

Dave L said:
There is no gap in the 70 weeks. If there were, they would not be 70 weeks.

Your counting method is like saying if you don't take all vacation days all at once , the rest don't exist

You don't understand what the text is saying

seventysevens · Jul 12, 2018

Dave L said:
The resurrection happens at the end of the world, followed by the rapture, followed by the New Heavens and earth.

again you just do not understand WHY a rapture happens, if you did you would not say that

Dave L · Jul 12, 2018

seventysevens said:
Your counting method is like saying if you don't take all vacation days all at once , the rest don't exist
You don't understand what the text is saying

70 weeks are not seventy weeks if you add thousands of more weeks to them.

Biblewriter · Jul 12, 2018

BABerean2 said:
The first 1800 years of "Christendom" would not agree with you, as confirmed below by pretrib author Tim LaHaye.

I have repeatedly posted, right here in Christian Forums, in posts seen and responded to by this poster, hard proof that this is simply not correct, regardless of who said it.

seventysevens · Jul 12, 2018

Dave L said:
70 weeks are not seventy weeks if you add thousands of more weeks to them.

Your counting method is like saying if you don't take all vacation days all at once , the rest don't exist

You don't understand what the text is saying

Dave L · Jul 12, 2018

seventysevens said:
again you just do not understand WHY a rapture happens, if you did you would not say that

Again, there is no direct bible support for a pre-trib rapture.

claninja · Jul 12, 2018

Biblewriter said:
Meshech and Tubal were indeed in Asia minor during ancient times. But in the eleventh century or so, when the Turks invaded, almost the entire population fled before their advance. As they were coming from the south, the only path of escape was to the north, into what is currently Russia. This is recorded in detail in the book "Colophons of Armenian Manuscripts, 1301-1480,” by Avedias K. Sanjian, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1969. (A colophon is a note added at the beginning or end of a manuscript, telling who copied it. These are of historical interest because they often included comments about the conditions under which the manuscript was copied.)

Thank you for this information. But this does not show that tubal or meschek were cities in 11th century.

Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

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