Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

Copperhead · Jul 10, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
Here is the Lord pictured as with His bow and His arrows and coming in judgment (Revelation 6), and His whet sword (Revelation 19). These symbolisms in Revelation are not an untraditional teaching, it is a teaching as old as the scriptures themselves.

Well, not quite. When we want to ascertain what a word means in the context of a passage, a principle of Biblical Hermeneutics should be applied..... the Law of First Mention.

The first mention of "bow" in scripture is in Genesis 9:13. The Hebrew there is the same as bow which is the same meaning as the Greek in Revelation 6. Bible interpreters have used "rainbow" but the word itself "qeset" means bow as in archery or weapon. So the first mention of "bow" in scripture is regarding a covenant. So it would not be out of line to propose that "bow" in Revelation 6 has the meaning of the rider going out and enforcing a covenant as opposed to some idea that bow pertains to weapons.

So the rider on the white horse could very well be the false Messiah as many have proposed. Enforcing some sort of covenant or binding agreement on the various nations of the world, thereby conquering the world.

Now getting into the realm of pure speculation, it would seem realistic that some sort of covenant or unifying treaty is what is meant here if there seemed to be the idea that there was some threat coming from outside the earth itself. Many, and I include myself here, hold a position that it will be a supposed threat of invasion by extraterrestrials. I know that gets into the weird category, but the Lord Himself warned us that...

Luke 21:26 (NKJV) men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Any who have studied these weird UFO goings on realize that they are inter dimensional entities much as fallen angels are. They defy all known laws of Physics, as could fallen angels. So the UFO phenomenon is really real, but it is Satan inspired, not some sort of alien thing we can embrace as devotees of the UFO thing have proposed. We could be seeing here, Satan playing "good cop, bad cop". Unifying the world under his control via a ruse of protecting the earth against something that he is also behind.

This could be the pretext to unifying the world under a "bow" or covenant. President Ronald Reagan even set the stage for this idea in an address to the United Nations. We see a glimpse of this very thing in Psalm 2.....

Psalms 2:1-4 (NKJV) Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.

Just a little nugget to ponder regarding how "bow" is meant in Revelation. It could be a wrong interpretation.

Choose Wisely · Jul 10, 2018

Copperhead said:
Well, not quite. When we want to ascertain what a word means in the context of a passage, a principle of Biblical Hermeneutics should be applied..... the Law of First Mention.

The first mention of "bow" in scripture is in Genesis 9:13. The Hebrew there is the same as bow which is the same meaning as the Greek in Revelation 6. Bible interpreters have used "rainbow" but the word itself "qeset" means bow as in archery or weapon. So the first mention of "bow" in scripture is regarding a covenant. So it would not be out of line to propose that "bow" in Revelation 6 has the meaning of the rider going out and enforcing a covenant as opposed to some idea that bow pertains to weapons.

So the rider on the white horse could very well be the false Messiah as many have proposed. Enforcing some sort of covenant or binding agreement on the various nations of the world, thereby conquering the world.

Now getting into the realm of pure speculation, it would seem realistic that some sort of covenant or unifying treaty is what is meant here if there seemed to be the idea that there was some threat coming from outside the earth itself. Many, and I include myself here, hold a position that it will be a supposed threat of invasion by extraterrestrials. I know that gets into the weird category, but the Lord Himself warned us that...

Luke 21:26 (NKJV) men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Any who have studied these weird UFO goings on realize that they are inter dimensional entities much as fallen angels are. They defy all known laws of Physics, as could fallen angels. So the UFO phenomenon is really real, but it is Satan inspired, not some sort of alien thing we can embrace as devotees of the UFO thing have proposed. We could be seeing here, Satan playing "good cop, bad cop". Unifying the world under his control via a ruse of protecting the earth against something that he is also behind.

This could be the pretext to unifying the world under a "bow" or covenant. President Ronald Reagan even set the stage for this idea in an address to the United Nations. We see a glimpse of this very thing in Psalm 2.....

Psalms 2:1-4 (NKJV) Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.

Just a little nugget to ponder regarding how "bow" is meant in Revelation. It could be a wrong interpretation.

The seals talked about in revelation are the things that Jesus talked about in Matthew 24. The first seal is the rider on white horse......false Christ.

Matt 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The beast and the false prophet lead the world astray. The rider on the white horse is not Jesus the Christ.

As for the UFO comments, you can be sure it is Satan inspired as he already has an explanation in place for when the pretribulation rapture occurs.

iamlamad · Jul 11, 2018

Copperhead said:
Well, not quite. When we want to ascertain what a word means in the context of a passage, a principle of Biblical Hermeneutics should be applied..... the Law of First Mention.

The first mention of "bow" in scripture is in Genesis 9:13. The Hebrew there is the same as bow which is the same meaning as the Greek in Revelation 6. Bible interpreters have used "rainbow" but the word itself "qeset" means bow as in archery or weapon. So the first mention of "bow" in scripture is regarding a covenant. So it would not be out of line to propose that "bow" in Revelation 6 has the meaning of the rider going out and enforcing a covenant as opposed to some idea that bow pertains to weapons.

So the rider on the white horse could very well be the false Messiah as many have proposed. Enforcing some sort of covenant or binding agreement on the various nations of the world, thereby conquering the world.

Now getting into the realm of pure speculation, it would seem realistic that some sort of covenant or unifying treaty is what is meant here if there seemed to be the idea that there was some threat coming from outside the earth itself. Many, and I include myself here, hold a position that it will be a supposed threat of invasion by extraterrestrials. I know that gets into the weird category, but the Lord Himself warned us that...

Luke 21:26 (NKJV) men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Any who have studied these weird UFO goings on realize that they are inter dimensional entities much as fallen angels are. They defy all known laws of Physics, as could fallen angels. So the UFO phenomenon is really real, but it is Satan inspired, not some sort of alien thing we can embrace as devotees of the UFO thing have proposed. We could be seeing here, Satan playing "good cop, bad cop". Unifying the world under his control via a ruse of protecting the earth against something that he is also behind.

This could be the pretext to unifying the world under a "bow" or covenant. President Ronald Reagan even set the stage for this idea in an address to the United Nations. We see a glimpse of this very thing in Psalm 2.....

Psalms 2:1-4 (NKJV) Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.

Just a little nugget to ponder regarding how "bow" is meant in Revelation. It could be a wrong interpretation.

Anyone can make the first seal into almost anything their imagination brings up, if they are willing to take that verse out of its context. So sorry, but the context of the first seal is around 32 AD! What was a righteous entity on earth at that time? (the color white). It could ONLY be the church! This first seal is to represent the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the world. Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. They were limited in their theater of operation to one fourth of the earth. The bow without arrow may well mean the church has weapons of warfare, but they are NOT physical weapons.

John used the color white 17 times in Revelation. The other 16 were all to represent righteousness. There is simply no way John and the Holy Spirit would use it here to mean anything evil.

iamlamad · Jul 11, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
The seals talked about in revelation are the things that Jesus talked about in Matthew 24. The first seal is the rider on white horse......false Christ.

Matt 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The beast and the false prophet lead the world astray. The rider on the white horse is not Jesus the Christ.

As for the UFO comments, you can be sure it is Satan inspired as he already has an explanation in place for when the pretribulation rapture occurs.

NOT!

Choose Wisely · Jul 11, 2018

iamlamad said:
Anyone can make the first seal into almost anything their imagination brings up, if they are willing to take that verse out of its context.

So sorry, but the context of the first seal is around 32 AD! What was a righteous entity on earth at that time? (the color white). It could ONLY be the church! This first seal is to represent the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the world. Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. They were limited in their theater of operation to one fourth of the earth. The bow without arrow may well mean the church has weapons of warfare, but they are NOT physical weapons.

John used the color white 17 times in Revelation. The other 16 were all to represent righteousness. There is simply no way John and the Holy Spirit would use it here to mean anything evil.

And so you have.

No seals have been opened yet. That's quite an imagination.

iamlamad · Jul 11, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
And so you have.

No seals have been opened yet. That's quite an imagination.

Look at Rev. 5:6 and ask yourself what time it was. Jesus took that book into His hands around 32 AD. It is not my fault you have ignored that in your theory.

Red Sky at Morning · Jul 12, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
And so you have.

No seals have been opened yet. That's quite an imagination.

As I understand it, after the seven church ages a "door is opened in heaven" and the voice says "Come up hither" (Rapture).

It is at this point that Jesus breaks open the scroll and the judgements begin...

iamlamad · Jul 12, 2018

Red Sky at Morning said:
As I understand it, after the seven church ages a "door is opened in heaven" and the voice says "Come up hither" (Rapture).

It is at this point that Jesus breaks open the scroll and the judgements begin...

What does this scripture really say, if we ignore tradition and just read? It was still while John was alive (obviously) and it was JOHN caught up to heaven to show him things to come, so we would have Revelation to read. No one can find 2000 years of church history there! It is only imagined.

If you read through chapters 4 & 5, they tell us a story, give us timing, and the movement of time. Notice that this was a vision given around 95 AD, LONG after Jesus ascended, yet Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father, nor anywhere in the throne room. That gives us timing. Then the Holy Spirit (As the 7 spirits of God) WAS there, which also gives us timing. (Jesus had not yet ascended to send the Holy Spirit down). Finally, a search was made for one worthy, yet NO MAN was found. All this shows us this was a vision of the past: a time before Christ rose from the dead. In all of eternity past, present and future, there was only 32 years when the WORD was NOT at the right hand of the Father - and that was during the 32 years He was on earth.

Finally in chapter 5, we see a CHANGE in time. Another search was made for one worth, and this time JESUS was found! This tells us He had now risen from the dead to become the redeemer of mankind. Then John saw the moment Jesus arrived into the throne room, right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. And the moment He arrived the Holy Spirit was sent down.

All this is giving us the CONTEXT of the seals: Jesus went straight to the Father, got the book, and began breaking seals. Again, no one can find 2000 years in those verses or between them ever - for that was not the intent of the Author. All this was to show that the first seal - the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL - was opened around 32 AD. Then the next three seals, revealing the red horse, the black horse and the pale horse, ride together - to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the church. But God limited them in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth.

If we study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, we see that Paul tied the Day of the Lord to the rapture. They are back to back events that cannot be separated. The rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. And further, Paul shows us that the start of the Day - the worldwide earthquake "sudden destruction" will be the start of God's wrath. There is only ONE PLACE in Revelation where this scenario fits - and that is just before the 6th seal that starts the Day of the Lord.

Therefore, by scripture, we can know that the theory of a rapture in 4:1 is myth and cannot be backed up by scripture.

Choose Wisely · Jul 13, 2018

iamlamad said:
Therefore, by scripture, we can know that the theory of a rapture in 4:1 is myth and cannot be backed up by scripture.

I read the things you wrote and there's lots and lots of problems. I guess we can just start here. Since you are in the pretribulation rapture safe house, that tells me you should believe in the pretribulation rapture. You say that the rapture will trigger the Day of the Lord. I say that A rapture will trigger the Day of the Lord. It certainly can't be the pretribulation rapture because we are not going to know when He is coming. He is coming in an hour that we think not.

Matt 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

And yet we know that the Day of the Lord won't come as a surprise to the children of the light. Those that are there before the Day of the Lord will know when He is coming. They are told that there will be signs and they are to lookup for their redemption draws neigh. Those facts alone are enough to disprove what you are saying.
1 Thes 5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

The pretribulation rapture will be a secret rapture. The rapture that triggers the Day of the Lord will not be a secret.

Choose Wisely · Jul 13, 2018

Red Sky at Morning said:
As I understand it, after the seven church ages a "door is opened in heaven" and the voice says "Come up hither" (Rapture).

It is at this point that Jesus breaks open the scroll and the judgements begin...

Correct.......there has been no rapture. No seals have been opened. The first seal is the white horse which matches perfectly to the false Christs of Matt 24

iamlamad · Jul 14, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Correct.......there has been no rapture. No seals have been opened. The first seal is the white horse which matches perfectly to the false Christs of Matt 24

When will you ever learn? Go back to chapter 5 and look at the TIMING! Jesus ascended into heaven, the Holy Spirit was sent down, and John got to see that in vision form. Timing? Around 32 AD. The first seal then has the same timing! It is to represent the Church sent out with the Gospel.

John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, each other time to represent righteousness - yet you imagine, one out of seventeen, he would use it for evil. Of course the Beast would wish to color himself as white, but he did not write this book! Look back and find that God colored the Beast as fiery red.

Next, these first seals, 2, 3, and 4, align nicely with what Jesus said in His Olivet discourse. Yet the verses that match, Jesus said, "the end is not yet" showing us He was speaking of the church age, not end times.

Finally, I challenge you to find ONE WORD at the first seal that even hints of anything evil. You won't find it, for it is to represent the church.

Copperhead · Jul 14, 2018

Read the first chapter.... John is in exile on the Island of Patmos (Revelation 1:9). That did not happen until well after 32AD and many think it was during the reign of Domition (81-96 AD). Eusibius and many other early Church writers claim that it was during this time that John was on Patmos. Now, do we take the word of the early writers, many of whom either knew John or the disciples of John or someone in the 21st century?

iamlamad · Jul 14, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
I read the things you wrote and there's lots and lots of problems. I guess we can just start here. Since you are in the pretribulation rapture safe house, that tells me you should believe in the pretribulation rapture. You say that the rapture will trigger the Day of the Lord. I say that A rapture will trigger the Day of the Lord. It certainly can't be the pretribulation rapture because we are not going to know when He is coming. He is coming in an hour that we think not.

Matt 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

And yet we know that the Day of the Lord won't come as a surprise to the children of the light. Those that are there before the Day of the Lord will know when He is coming. They are told that there will be signs and they are to lookup for their redemption draws neigh. Those facts alone are enough to disprove what you are saying.
1 Thes 5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

The pretribulation rapture will be a secret rapture. The rapture that triggers the Day of the Lord will not be a secret.

Believers are not "overtaken," they are raptured. While, or at the same moment in time, that those in darkness are feeling the sudden destruction (Which I believe is an earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising), those in the light get raptured out of the sudden destruction. The saints get saved from His wrath, while those left behind feel His wrath. Paul tells us that the DAY comes as a thief in the night. That is because HIS COMING is as a thief in the night. What we won't know is the day or the hour of the day. Right now, we know it is close.

By the way, what is "secret" about a loud trumpet blast, and loud shout? It is not secret. It is the timing that is secret. We will not know the day. Perhaps though, as the day approaches, He will tell His own to get ready.

yet we know that the Day of the Lord won't come as a surprise to the children of the light. Not true, for the Day comes as a thief in the night, meaning no one will know. However, God will not set any appointments for us with His wrath, so we get raptured while those left behind get wrath.

Therefore I disagree with you. You have not disproved anything. It seems we read these verses differently.
I believe Paul is speaking of the same moment of time: a moment after God raises the dead. When the dead are raised, it will cause and earthquake. I think the 6th seal earthquake is Paul's "sudden destruction."

Since the 70th week does not begin until the 7th seal, of course I believe the rapture will be prewrath and pretrib.

Copperhead · Jul 14, 2018

Yeah, I have pretty much been pre-trib all of my believing lifetime but I have never bought into some "secret" removal of the Church nonsense. Folks will be very aware of it when it happens. It may come as a surprise to many, but it sure won't be a secret. Even Satan has put a lot of energy in coming up with explanations for when it happens to dismiss it. If it were some sort of secret, then why waste any time or effort in dismissing it.

I think you are on to something about a major earthquake happening at the resurrection that precedes the catching up and removal of the righteous. This sort of thing happened in Matthew 27:51-53. I believe, as do many of the earth Church writers, that these saints who were resurrected were taken by Yeshua to the Father, which is the requirement of the High Priest (Yeshua) to take the first fruits of the harvest to the Father (Leviticus 23). Yeshua is indeed the First Fruits of the Resurrection, but He is our High Priest and NOT the First Fruits of the Harvest.

Dr. Norman Geisler has documented extensively the early Church writers comments on this, that they confirm this is what Yeshua did with those saints who arose in Matthew 27.

http://defendinginerrancy.com/early-fathers-resurrection-saints/

Choose Wisely · Jul 14, 2018

iamlamad said:
Believers are not "overtaken," they are raptured.

I have read and reread........what am I missing? I can't find anywhere I said that believers are overtaken. Please show where I quoted this.

iamlamad said:
By the way, what is "secret" about a loud trumpet blast, and loud shout? It is not secret. It is the timing that is secret. We will not know the day. Perhaps though, as the day approaches, He will tell His own to get ready.

When the pretrib rapture occurs the world will not see Him. He will be hiddien.
Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
As for what is secret about a loud trumpet blast and loud shout? Those things happen in heaven. What it heard on earth?
Song of Solomon 2
12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

iamlamad said:
yet we know that the Day of the Lord won't come as a surprise to the children of the light. Not true, for the Day comes as a thief in the night, meaning no one will know. However, God will not set any appointments for us with His wrath, so we get raptured while those left behind get wrath.

You are absolutely incorrect. Here's what God says about it.
1 Thes 5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
The Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night to none believers. Believers are given signs to look for. They are also told to look up, their redemption draws nigh.......when the things of Matt 24 begin to come to pass. For you say to anything else is a complete disagreement with the Word of God.
As for the pretribulation rapture, the Goodman will not know when He is coming. He will come when you think not. The unbelieving world is not looking for Him to come. Only believers are looking and they are told he will come in an hour that you think not........there will be no signs.
Matt 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

iamlamad said:
Therefore I disagree with you. You have not disproved anything. It seems we read these verses differently.

Well, I read that the Day of the Lord will not be a surprise to the believer. I read where we are told to look up, for our redemption draws nigh when we see the signs begin to come to pass. I'm not quite sure what you make of those verses, but if its anything other than that then we do disagree and apparently you will be disagreeing with the Word....So you should consider that.

iamlamad said:
I believe Paul is speaking of the same moment of time: a moment after God raises the dead. When the dead are raised, it will cause and earthquake. I think the 6th seal earthquake is Paul's "sudden destruction."

That's ok with me. That's the rapture that occurs at the Day of the Lord. It will be like the days of Lot. That is not the pretribulation rapture that is the early summer harvest when it will be like the days of Noah. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

iamlamad said:
Since the 70th week does not begin until the 7th seal, of course I believe the rapture will be prewrath and pretrib.

The 70th week begins after the Gentiles are raptured pretrib. Then the seals are opened and God turns his attention to Israel. That's what the 70th week is about........Israel. It is the TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE. There is a difference between tribulation and wrath. We can see that in Matt 24. Immediately after the tribulation of those days ....... Then the wrath occurs. So, how can it be a pretribulation rapture if that the tribulation of those days is over before the Son of Man comes?

The mistake you are making is believing that the rapture that you see at the 6th seal is the pretribulation rapture. It is not. It is the rapture of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. We can prove that by the 144,000 first fruits. If the 1st fruits are pumpkins, the harvest will be pumpkins. Since the 1st fruits are of the 12 tribes so will the harvest be. We can see this harvest in Rev 14. The remnant will be left in Israel, the rest of the 12 tribes are gone prewrath..........but not pretrib. The Gentiles are gone pretrib.
If you are looking in Revelation to figure out when the pretrib rapture will occur.....its not clearly shown because how could He show you and then tell you he is coming in an hour that you think not. He does show you when a rapture occurs prior to the day of the Lord. But that's not the pretrib rapture.

Choose Wisely · Jul 14, 2018

Copperhead said:
Yeah, I have pretty much been pre-trib all of my believing lifetime but I have never bought into some "secret" removal of the Church nonsense. Folks will be very aware of it when it happens. It may come as a surprise to many, but it sure won't be a secret. Even Satan has put a lot of energy in coming up with explanations for when it happens to dismiss it. If it were some sort of secret, then why waste any time or effort in dismissing it.

It will be a secret, in that the world will not see Him. And you're right Satan has an explanation in place.......alien abductions. Did you know in the 1950's there were so many calls about aliens that they had to shut down the switchboards in Washington. The lie is in place and the world will come together under the one............GIVEN.........the stephanos crown.
Rev 6
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

He will be in charge of the United Nations.

Copperhead · Jul 14, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
It will be a secret, in that the world will not see Him. And you're right Satan has an explanation in place.......alien abductions. Did you know in the 1950's there were so many calls about aliens that they had to shut down the switchboards in Washington. The lie is in place and the world will come together under the one............GIVEN.........the stephanos crown.
Rev 6
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

He will be in charge of the United Nations.

Yeah, I have to agree. The alien thing really is going to factor into things. Just about every New Age channeler and UFO advocate has gone to great lengths in explaining how many people will need to be removed from the planet before mankind can transition to a higher level.

Copperhead · Jul 15, 2018

iamlamad said:
Therefore, by scripture, we can know that the theory of a rapture in 4:1 is myth and cannot be backed up by scripture.

Well, one of the requirements in the Torah for anything to be established or rejected is the testimony of two or more witnesses. We have those, the Tanakh (OT) and the NT. And I would contend, there is far more evidence of a pre-trib removal of the righteous in the Tanakh than in the NT. After all, the Bereans were commended by the HS for searching the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true. All they had was the Tanakh, as the NT had not been compiled yet.

For you to assert that it is a myth, then you would have to prove that from the Tanakh as well as the NT. All things must be confirmed on the testimony of two or more witnesses.... the Tanakh and the NT. Contrary to your assertion, the removal of the righteous before the events start to transpire is throughout the Tanakh, in both pattern and prediction.

And the fallacy is assuming that the point that YHWH is unleashing wrath upon the earth is after the seals. The events start with the first seal being opened by Yeshua. The implication is that they would not happen until He opened the seals, therefore, it is by His hand that the events are transpiring on the earth. The HS has stepped aside, having delivered the bride (the Church) to the Messiah, and now the Messiah is opening the seals that allow calamity to befall those that remain upon the earth. Setting the stage for punishment to fall upon those who side with Satan and reject Messiah.

None of this is intended for the Bride. Therefore, the HS has removed and delivered the Bride to Messiah before His actions start this chain of events.

iamlamad · Jul 15, 2018

Copperhead said:
Yeah, I have pretty much been pre-trib all of my believing lifetime but I have never bought into some "secret" removal of the Church nonsense. Folks will be very aware of it when it happens. It may come as a surprise to many, but it sure won't be a secret. Even Satan has put a lot of energy in coming up with explanations for when it happens to dismiss it. If it were some sort of secret, then why waste any time or effort in dismissing it.

I think you are on to something about a major earthquake happening at the resurrection that precedes the catching up and removal of the righteous. This sort of thing happened in Matthew 27:51-53. I believe, as do many of the earth Church writers, that these saints who were resurrected were taken by Yeshua to the Father, which is the requirement of the High Priest (Yeshua) to take the first fruits of the harvest to the Father (Leviticus 23). Yeshua is indeed the First Fruits of the Resurrection, but He is our High Priest and NOT the First Fruits of the Harvest.

Dr. Norman Geisler has documented extensively the early Church writers comments on this, that they confirm this is what Yeshua did with those saints who arose in Matthew 27.

http://defendinginerrancy.com/early-fathers-resurrection-saints/

When I study Revelation, there is only one place Paul's writing in 1 Thes. 5 can fit, and that is at the 6th seal. What Paul wrote, and what John wrote, fit hand in glove.

iamlamad · Jul 15, 2018

Copperhead said:
Well, one of the requirements in the Torah for anything to be established or rejected is the testimony of two or more witnesses. We have those, the Tanakh (OT) and the NT. And I would contend, there is far more evidence of a pre-trib removal of the righteous in the Tanakh than in the NT. After all, the Bereans were commended by the HS for searching the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true. All they had was the Tanakh, as the NT had not been compiled yet.

For you to assert that it is a myth, then you would have to prove that from the Tanakh as well as the NT. All things must be confirmed on the testimony of two or more witnesses.... the Tanakh and the NT. Contrary to your assertion, the removal of the righteous before the events start to transpire is throughout the Tanakh, in both pattern and prediction.

And the fallacy is assuming that the point that YHWH is unleashing wrath upon the earth is after the seals. The events start with the first seal being opened by Yeshua. The implication is that they would not happen until He opened the seals, therefore, it is by His hand that the events are transpiring on the earth. The HS has stepped aside, having delivered the bride (the Church) to the Messiah, and now the Messiah is opening the seals that allow calamity to befall those that remain upon the earth. Setting the stage for punishment to fall upon those who side with Satan and reject Messiah.

None of this is intended for the Bride. Therefore, the HS has removed and delivered the Bride to Messiah before His actions start this chain of events.

I think you miss-understood. The rapture is a sure thing. written clearly. But the mainstream evangelicals imagine that John being called up to heaven in Rev. 4:1 is where the rapture will take place in Revelation. All I was saying is, that theory is myth. That was JOHN being called up to heaven, and it took place around 95 AD. It has nothing to do with the church being called up.

I place the rapture a moment before the great earthquake at the 6th seal. John did not see the rapture, but saw the church in heaven as the great crowd too large to number right after the 6th seal.

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