Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Der Alte · Jul 11, 2018

[Previous post continued]

[3]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Does the UR crowd think God is going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does the UR crowd think that Jesus will give His followers an finite period of glory then they will eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”

[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]

In this verse “aionas” is paired with “without end.” “aionas” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” by definition here means eternal.

[18]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[19]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” People could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[20]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]John 8:51
(51) Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé unto the aion] see death."

According to noted Greek scholar MarvinVincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.
.....I repeat while aion/aionios are used to refer to things which are not eternal, to my knowledge, unlike the passages I have listed, aion/aionios are never associated with other adjectives and phrases which show them to be a finite period.

SonOfZion · Jul 11, 2018

Der Alter said:
You evidently do not know the meaning of diatribe.

Diatribe-"a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something."
So please inform me whom, or what have I attacked forcefully and bitterly? Since you cannot do that you owe me an apology.
One should not accuse others of doing which they themselves have been and are doing.[/indent]

One should not demand of others that which they cannot or will not do themselves.

What a modern Jew believes is irrelevant. I quoted from three unimpeachable historical Jewish sources; The Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. You ignored them and blew them off as a tirade.

You quoted at least 21 verses in this post. You blew off all the scripture I quoted and called my post a tirade and a wall of text. Then you demanded that I quote only one verse. Based on your action this post should be called a tirade and a wall of text.
Everything in my post which was not a quote from scripture or a cited source was my own words. OTOH this post is virtually nothing but copy/paste from the gurus you follow.

Der Diatribe

It is Diatribe, a forceful and bitter attack on the character of the Almighty, Profaning His Name - You are not attacking me, but His Word, thus Him... Say anything you want about me you like, just don't think you will not be called out on your Diatribe against Him, Because that is what it is in REALITY... and if you were able to see all of your errors have been refuted already.

And the only apology that should be forthcoming is from you to The Almighty for profaning His Name.

But you can't! Because you willingly refuse to understand!

Der Alte · Jul 11, 2018

SonOfZion said:
...Here the word “meats” is translated for the Greek word “broma” (Strong’s #1033). Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon gives the definition of broma as, “That which is eaten, food, meat.” So we see that broma in Mark 7v19 does not explicitly mean meat in a carnivorous sense, as in the muscular tissues of animals. The first definition of meat Webster’s Dictionary.
Definition of meat
1a : food; especially : solid food as distinguished from drink.
b : the edible part of something as distinguished from its covering (such as a husk or shell)
1 Peter 1:16, Leviticus 11:44 What is Food and what is not food, what is sanctified by the Word of Elohim, and what is not. 1 Timothy 4:5

Mar 7:19
(19) Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging [καθαρίζω] all meats?

G2511 καθαρίζω katharizō kath-ar-id'-zo
From G2513; to cleanse (literally or figuratively): - (make) clean (-se), purge, purify.
Total KJV occurrences: 30

The word translated "purge" in Mk 7:19 means "cleanse, clean, purify" it does not mean to defecate. Defecating does not "cleanse, clean" or "purify" anything.

SonOfZion · Jul 11, 2018

Der Alter said:
Mar 7:19
(19) Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging [καθαρίζω] all meats?

G2511 καθαρίζω katharizō kath-ar-id'-zo
From G2513; to cleanse (literally or figuratively): - (make) clean (-se), purge, purify.
Total KJV occurrences: 30
The word translated "purge" in Mk 7:19 means "cleanse, clean, purify" it does not mean to defecate. Defecating does not "cleanse, clean" or "purify" anything.

Purging all Broma

Broma can be peas and carrots, It can be a fish, it can be bread as it was in this Context, anything that is eaten as Biblical food... It goes into the belly, and goeth OUT (Where does it come out?) cleaning the system, Purging the food that was eaten.

The accusation was that YESHUA's disciples, didn't wash their hands before eating - That was Against their Traditions Mark 7:13 and was not a commandment.

They believed that if unclean dust was on your hands, and most did not use utensils, and you ate that dust, you were unclean/defiled, just because you didn't wash your hands.

The only thing YESHUA said was cleansed was insignificant, that supposed dust from their unwashed hands, as it was not able to enter into the heart. Mark 7:2 Matthew 15:20

To suggest that YESHUA taught against the Torah, would have made Him a sinner, If YESHUA had said, Everything is now permissible to eat, made clean by going through the body.. But in Context, He didn't. Far from it. Deuteronomy 18:15, Acts of the Apostles 7:37 "like unto me"

Not a prophet that would go around doing away with Moses/Torah

SarahsKnight · Jul 11, 2018

Hawkins said:
You mean to say the the term eternal isn't eternal. Or how possible that it's an explain away instead?

To me it's just another "the Bible is wrong but you are right" argument.

Uh, no, actually. @Rubiks just laid it out clearly for you with an example from Scripture of the word "eternal" that obviously is not speaking of being ongoing in process but rather refers to the result. All you did was ignore it and just pretend Rubiks is being belligerent or disingenuous. He clearly answered you with an example of there being another obvious meaning of "eternal" in Scripture and you chose to insult his intelligence and sincerity.

And the "eternal punishment" verse from Matthew isn't the only one in the Bible or even just the four gospels that speak of the fate of believers and unbelievers, you know.

Der Alte · Jul 11, 2018

SonOfZion said:
Purging all Broma
Broma can be peas and carrots, It can be a fish, it can be anything that is eaten as Biblical food... It goes into the belly, and goeth OUT (Where does it come out?) cleaning the system, Purging the food that was eaten.

This is the "I'm right and you're wrong. Am too! Nuh huh!" argument. You have not proved anything only giving your opinion.
.....Note how you have twisted the words of scripture to make them appear to support your assumptions/presuppositions. "cleaning the system" Jesus did not say it "cleanses the system."
.....καθαριζον cleanses παντα all τα the βρωματα food.
.....Note the word "all" not just peas and carrots. The word καθαρίζω occurs 30 times in the NT. In 29 of those verses it is translated as some form of "cleanse." It never refers to expelling something. If all a person eats is kosher food there is nothing about the food that needs cleansing.

The accusation was that YESHUA's disciples, didn't wash their hands before eating - That was Against their Traditions Mark 7:13 and was not commandment.
They believed that if unclean dust was on your hands, and most did not use utensils, and you ate that dust, you were unclean/defiled, just because you didn't wash your hands.
The only thing YESHUA said was cleansed was insignificant, that supposed dust from their unwashed hands, as it was not able to enter into the heart. Mark 7:2 Matthew 15:20

To suggest that YESHUA taught against the Torah, would have made Him a sinner, If YESHUA had said, Everything is now permissible to eat, made clean by going through the body.. But in Context, He didn't. Far from it.

Jesus was and is God He can abrogate any part of the Torah He chooses to.

SonOfZion · Jul 11, 2018

Der Alter said:
This is the "I'm right and you're wrong. Am too! Nuh huh!" argument. You have not proved anything only giving your opinion.
.....Note how you have twisted the words of scripture to make them appear to support your assumptions/presuppositions. "cleaning the system" Jesus did not say it "cleanses the system."
.....καθαριζον cleanses παντα all τα the βρωματα food.
.....Note the word "all" not just peas and carrots. The word καθαρίζω occurs 30 times in the NT. In 29 of those verses it is translated as some form of "cleanse." It never refers to expelling something. If all a person eats is kosher food there is nothing about the food that needs cleansing.

Jesus was and is God He can abrogate any part of the Torah He chooses to.

To suggest that YESHUA taught against the Torah, would have made Him a sinner, If YESHUA had said, Everything is now permissible to eat, made clean by going through the body.. But in Context, He didn't. Far from it. Deuteronomy 18:15, Acts of the Apostles 7:37 "like unto me"

Not a prophet that would go around doing away with Moses/Torah, abrogating any part of it. Matthew 5:18 Has heaven and earth passed Away Yet?

Did YESHUA not only Teach against Moses Leviticus 11 but He also went around breaking the Sabbath. John 5:18

Thought He fulfilled the law, so we wouldn't have to keep it, A man born/made under the law Galatians 4:4

Answer John 5:18 Another time this word translated as brake in John 11:44 is used is when Lazurus comes out of the tomb, wrapped in grave clothes, and YESHUA says Break him

Lao - Loose

YESHUA loosed the traditions they had about what one could and could not do on the Sabbath...

as He loosed the traditions of eating with unwashed hands.

But Never, Did He break the Torah, Teach others to Do So, A sinner not like unto Moses, and He could not be the Savior, Sinless and Separate from sinners, to say otherwise is to deny HIM

Der Alte · Jul 11, 2018

SonOfZion said:
To suggest that YESHUA taught against the Torah, would have made Him a sinner, If YESHUA had said, Everything is now permissible to eat, made clean by going through the body.. But in Context, He didn't. Far from it. Deuteronomy 18:15, Acts of the Apostles 7:37 "like unto me"

Not a prophet that would go around doing away with Moses/Torah, abrogating any part of it. Matthew 5:18 Has heaven and earth passed Away Yet?

Abrogating dietary laws is not "doing away with Moses/Torah." Thank you for your opinion about what Jesus really meant when He said "cleansing all food." No matter how you try you cannot make it mean something else. If someone was eating only kosher there would be no food to cleanse. If Jesus was only talking about eating with dirty hands why did He mention food?

Did YESHUA not only Teach against Moses Leviticus 11 but He also went around breaking the Sabbath. John 5:18Thought He fulfilled the law, so we wouldn't have to keep it, A man born/made under the law Galatians 4:4

Answer John 5:18 Another time this word translated as brake in John 5:18 is used is when Lazurus comes out of the tomb, wrapped in grave clothes, and YESHUA says Break him
Lao - Loose

I don't have any idea what you are talking about here.

YESHUA loosed the traditions they had about what one could and could not do on the Sabbath...
as He loosed the traditions of eating with unwashed hands.
But Never, Did He break the Torah, Teach others to Do So, A sinner not like unto Moses, and He could not be the Savior, Sinless and Separate from sinners, to say otherwise is to deny Him.

Thank you for your unsupported opinion. Repeating your opinion over and over does not make it any more valid.

Chinchilla · Jul 11, 2018

Rich man was not annahilated he begged Lazarus for cup of water didn't he ?

συνείδησις · Jul 11, 2018

SonOfZion said:
To suggest that YESHUA taught against the Torah, would have made Him a sinner, If YESHUA had said, Everything is now permissible to eat, made clean by going through the body.. But in Context, He didn't. Far from it. Deuteronomy 18:15, Acts of the Apostles 7:37 "like unto me"

Not really. He stated a truth that all things are clean, but didn't instruct his disciples to break the law. He did a similar thing with the Samaritan women when he said the time had arrived to worship the father in spirit and truth rather than in Jerusalem, which was required by law.

SonOfZion · Jul 11, 2018

Der Alter said:
Abrogating dietary laws is not "doing away with Moses/Torah." Thank you for your opinion about what Jesus really meant when He said "cleansing all food." No matter how you try you cannot make it mean something else. If someone was eating only kosher there would be no food to cleanse. If Jesus was only talking about eating with dirty hands why did He mention food?

I don't have any idea what you are talking about here.

Thank you for your unsupported opinion. Repeating your opinion over and over does not make it any more valid.

Two things (maybe more), Food is what is the Bible says is food, and thou may protest (sure you will), but sorry, YHWH never approves of kitten and puppy stew no matter how much you pray over it, don't eat them!!!

(because they are never sanctified by the word of God as food, everything God made is Good, not everything is food, Eat some hemlock and get back to me if you don't believe - anyways. - even Noah knew, Seven Pairs of the Clean Animals into the Ark, One Pair of the unclean, and when he made a sacrifice to YHWH after getting off the Ark, it wasn't a pig, then them pot bellied varmints would have been extinct already.

Nor Did Abraham ever offer an Unclean Animal as a Sacrifice. Genesis 26:5

Peter NEVER ate anything unclean, and said it was REQUIRED to be Holy (set-apart) not to do so yourself

1 Peter 1:16 Leviticus 11:44

To the reader, reading Peter, It is Written, where that at?

That's Wise of you to ask.

It's In the chapter about what is Food and What is not Food, The Entire Chapter

So in a observant mind, one who had not forsaken the Torah for knowledge Hosea 4:6

Would know He is referring to what one should eat and not eat to be Set-Apart Holy.

Quoting the verse to draw attention to the Context, a common practice in the Brit Chadashah

Even YESHUA Eloi Eloi lama Sabachthani to draw the attention to Psalms 22

Now

If you want to talk about the vision, where Peter learned that he was not to call any man common or unclean we can go through that also...

give it a shot

The difference is seeing the Scriptures through Hebrew eyes, that of the writers of the Brit Chadashah, How they lived their lives, and not the Greek version that slanderously says that YESHUA came to do away with His Torah and that He did Not come to do as He said that He would, and make it honorable. Matthew 5:17 Pleroo - Fill to the Full, Cause to Abound Isaiah 42:21 well Pleased to do so for His Righteousness Sake.

συνείδησις said:
Not really. He stated a truth that all things are clean, but didn't instruct his disciples to break the law. He did a similar thing with the Samaritan women when he said the time had arrived to worship the father in spirit and truth rather than in Jerusalem, which was required by law.

I can worship Him in Spirit and Truth anywhere Psalms 119:142 If there was a Temple standing, the requirement to go to Jerusalem would still stand, but will someday Zechariah 14:16 To worship the King - How did Daniel Worship YHWH in babylon without a Temple, the babylonians destroyed the one in Jerusalem, Then as now, there is no need to go to Jerusalem since the Temple was Destroyed in 70 AD, not that His Torah was done away with....Hebrew eyes vs. Greek eyes Zechariah 9:13 , So bring it on Proverbs 28:4, the only thing you have to lose is your Greek thinking.

and Passover and become a Son of Zion

vinsight4u · Jul 11, 2018

vinsight4u · Jul 11, 2018

Hank77 · Jul 11, 2018

SonOfZion said:
They believed that if unclean dust was on your hands, and most did not use utensils, and you ate that dust, you were unclean/defiled, just because you didn't wash your hands.

No that is not what their tradition was, still is, and is still done.
I learned this from a practicing Jew who is the son of an Orthodox rabbi.

What is being spoken about here as a tradition is a washing and drying of the hands three times. The water is poured from a little pitcher onto the hand and rubbed onto the other hand. Then the hands are dried. This is done three times. It's a tradition of the Pharisees that they say is from the Oral Law.

Serbian_W0lf · Jul 11, 2018

The hellfire is called the enternal fire for a reason.

The afterlife is forever, both for those in heaven and those in hell.

A soul can not be destroyed.

Heck, there is even a verse in the bible saying that people will get tortured day and night forever and ever and gnath their teeth.

Der Alte · Jul 11, 2018

SonOfZion said:
Two things (maybe more), Food is what is the Bible says is food, and thou may protest (sure you will), but sorry, YHWH never approves of kitten and puppy stew no matter how much you pray over it, don't eat them!!!

You have already lost when you are forced to make absurd statements like this trying to prove your argument. "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." [1 Cor 10:23] All things! Not some things! While all things are lawful, I still have common sense so I can choose to eat or not eat.

(because they are never sanctified by the word of God as food, everything God made is Good, not everything is food, Eat some hemlock and get back to me if you don't believe - anyways. - even Noah knew, Seven Pairs of the Clean Animals into the Ark, One Pair of the unclean, and when he made a sacrifice to YHWH after getting off the Ark, it wasn't a pig, then them pot bellied varmints would have been extinct already.

Making absurd statements does nothing to to convince me that you are right.

Nor Did Abraham ever offer an Unclean Animal as a Sacrifice. Genesis 26:5
Peter NEVER ate anything unclean, and said it was REQUIRED to be Holy (set-apart) not to do so yourself
1 Peter 1:16 Leviticus 11:44
To the reader, reading Peter, It is Written, where that at?
That's Wise of you to ask.
It's In the chapter about what is Food and What is not Food, The Entire Chapter
So in a observant mind, one who had not forsaken the Torah for knowledge Hosea 4:6
Would know He is referring to what one should eat and not eat to be Set-Apart Holy.
Quoting the verse to draw attention to the Context, a common practice in the Brit Chadashah
Even YESHUA Eloi Eloi lama Sabachthani to draw the attention to Psalms 22
Now

All irrelevant . Please show me where any NT writer commanded gentile Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonika, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea and all the other gentile cities and countries mentioned in the NT they must obey the dietary laws and all the other ceremonial laws in the OT? Show me where the gentile Christians in all those places were taught or had in their possession copies of the Tanakh? Unless they were taught Torah they could not have been required to obey it.

If you want to talk about the vision, where Peter learned that he was not to call any man common or unclean we can go through that also...

If God did not include making unclean food clean in Peter's vision why did He command Peter three times to rise and eat? Why did Peter say 3 times that he had never eaten any unclean, if he understood the vision had nothing to do with food? If God was only talking about making men clean why did He use animals and not men in the vision? Peter later understood that if God could and did make all food clean, He certainly made all men clean as well. Now PROVE me wrong.

The difference is seeing the Scriptures through Hebrew eyes, that of the writers of the Brit Chadashah, How they lived their lives, and not the Greek version that slanderously says that YESHUA came to do away with His Torah and that He did Not come to do as He said that He would, and make it honorable.

Now all you have to do is show me where any of the NT writers taught this to the gentile Christians in all the cities and countries mentioned in the NT. Prove not assume!

Matthew 5:17 Pleroo - Fill to the Full, Cause to Abound Isaiah 42:21 well Pleased to do so for His Righteousness Sake.

I learned to speak Greek in Germany the year of Sputnik 1 and I formally studied both Greek and Hebrew at the graduate level about 2 decades after that. I doubt very seriously that anyone who could not parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it could instruct me on Greek, in any way.

I can worship Him in Spirit and Truth anywhere Psalms 119:142 If there was a Temple standing, the requirement to go to Jerusalem would still stand, but will someday Zechariah 14:16 To worship the King - How did Daniel Worship YHWH in babylon without a Temple, the babylonians destroyed the one in Jerusalem, Then as now, there is no need to go to Jerusalem since the Temple was Destroyed in 70 AD, not that His Torah was done away with....Hebrew eyes vs. Greek eyes Zechariah 9:13 , So bring it on Proverbs 28:4,

All irrelevant proof texting. Not in-context scriptural study.

the only thing you have to lose is your Greek thinking.

All you have to do is show me where this was taught by any NT writer. And while you are at it show me where any gentile Christian was taught Torah or that they had copies of the Torah they could read. If you can do that then we can talk about it. If not your entire argument is meaningless.

SarahsKnight · Jul 11, 2018

vinsight4u said:
At times, the OT refers to soul as being a person. The soul that sinneth shall die - has do with with the first death, not the second one. It is about God will not punish in the coming attack on the nation of Israel or such - those that are righteous. The soul - as in the person that sinneth - he shall die. not the son - due to the sins of the father - nor the father, due to the sins of his son

Um, it still says the soul is capable of death. There is no logical reason why Ezekiel 18:10 would be stated this way if any part of the person - the soul, the body, whatever - lives on or is inherently immortal.

Serbian_W0lf said:
A soul can not be destroyed.

Aaaaand at least one verse directly contradicts this, in any context. Matthew 10:28.

Do advocates for eternal torment really expect us to buy these kinds of arguments? It utterly confounds me sometimes that I hear people chanting the same old mantras and cliches spoken from the pulpit that have either no good Scriptural basis or are outright contradicted by Scripture to favor the traditional view of hell, and yet some of them will suggest or passive-aggressively condemn others who believe differently as false Christians (and therefore going to that same hell of eternal torments, too).

But then, behold the persuasive power of the very first lie ever told, that mankind "will not surely die" (or will just suffer a special kind of death in which they are still living forever in hell), that unfortunately did not stay in the Garden of Eden.

SonOfZion · Jul 11, 2018

Der Alter said:
All irrelevant . Please show me where any NT writer commanded gentile Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonika, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea and all the other gentile cities and countries mentioned in the NT they must obey the dietary laws and all the other ceremonial laws in the OT? Show me where the gentile Christians in all those places were taught or had in their possession copies of the Tanakh? Unless they were taught Torah they could not have been required to obey it.

Of the four things that would openly show that a person had changed, had become a believer to be admitted into the congregation, Two of them are Dietary

Acts of the Apostles 15:20 1) Polution of idols 2) Fornication 3) Things Strangled 4) Blood

Strangled is not a Kosher way to kill an animal

Nor are you to eat the blood, drained in a Kosher kill..

So, two of the first four things a new believer was to obey is about the Dietary Law

Are there only four things for believers, no murder, no stealing, being a false witness, since they are not mentioned?

Ridiculous

Absolutely not, They would learn the rest of Torah, Moses when they went to the Synagogue on the Sabbath to hear him Preached Acts of the Apostles 15:21

Besides these first commands to believers, Peter emphasizing the point again in 1 Peter 1:16, Leviticus 11:44 That It matters what you eat. Isaiah 66:17 keep eating unclean things and find out for yourself.

Preached in Every City on the Sabbath Acts of the Apostles 15:21

Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonika, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea

Did you ask this because you knew or didn't know, that was a great set-up

Really, show you just one place?

Amazing

DM25 · Jul 11, 2018

AvgJoe said:
This~~~> https://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html

I have read that, and while gotquestions can be helpful for many topics, they are not the actual word of God itself. This topic is something they are getting wrong and in that article they don't even have that much scripture to back up their claims. All they are doing to pose their argument is relying on emotions and baseless assumptions about what "many annihilationists think" and how they feel about the idea and the psychology around it, rather than refuting the argument with scripture and clear biblical evidence. It is a very biased article.

DM25 · Jul 11, 2018

vinsight4u said:
Isaiah 34:10

“It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”

JoeP222w said:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Where does smoke come from? A fire that has been put out.... When fire gets put out, the result is smoke coming up. So this is not a good argument for the actual fire lasting forever. The smoke of the fire symbolizes the evil that has perished, and that will be gone forever.

Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

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