God's Omniscience and man's salvation

FreeGrace2 · Jul 11, 2018

"If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."

Since that is true, and He does know everything, I am asking those who believe that salvation can be lost to please explain why omniscient God would bother giving salvation to those who would later meet whatever criteria that results in loss of salvation.

I'm not interested in any debate. That's proven futile. But I am quite curious as to why God, who knows everything, would give salvation to anyone who would later lose it (by whatever means or criteria).

I'm also not interested in how salvation might be lost. Doesn't matter to this thread.

The only thing that does matter is WHY omniscient God would give salvation to anyone who would later end up losing it.

Thanks for any input that addresses this single issue.

Kevin Snow · Jul 11, 2018

What appears to us as someone who is saved most certainly can lose that appearance to us. The problem of losing salvation is entirely based on what we see and understand. And that never was to be understood as final or the truth as God sees it.

God knows our hearts. So in terms of what God gives, when he gives it he has given it for all time. So we know that no person who is truly saved will ever lose that gift of salvation. It is just that we are not able to see who is truly saved versus who believes only for a time.

And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. ~Luke 8:13

Their belief is not true. This is why they are not saved. But we can't necessarily tell who is truly saved or not. This is why it appears that they have lost salvation because they live as though they had it for a time.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 11, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
What appears to us as someone who is saved most certainly can lose that appearance to us. The problem of losing salvation is entirely based on what we see and understand. And that never was to be understood as final or the truth as God sees it.

Jesus taught directly that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. And since eternal life and salvation are synonymous, this isn't about appearances to humans. It's about Jesus saying those who believe ARE saved. Luke 8:12 - "lest they believe and be saved".

God knows our hearts.

This is the point of this thread.

So in terms of what God gives, when he gives it he has given it for all time. So we know that no person who is truly saved will ever lose that gift of salvation.

This is eternal security. Thank you.

It is just that we are not able to see who is truly saved versus who believes only for a time.

Now you've thrown a wrench into the mix. Where does the Bible teach that believing for only a time results in not being saved in the first place?

And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

Click to expand...

~Luke 8:13

Their belief is not true.

Is that what Jesus said? No. He said they "fall away" from believing. One who "believes for a while" and then ceases has fallen away from believing.

This is why they are not saved.

The Bible is very clear about those who believe (regardless of timeframe) ARE saved.

But we can't necessarily tell who is truly saved or not.

But we know the principle. If one believes in Christ, they ARE saved.

This is why it appears that they have lost salvation because they live as though they had it for a time.

So are you suggesting that the idea of loss of salvation is an appearance thing only?

That no one really loses salvation. But the appearance is lost?

Well, this isn't what the thread is about. I'm interested in those who actually believe that a saved person can lose their saved state.

Interestingly, I've not come across your viewpoint before.

But the Bible is clear that WHEN one believes, they possess eternal life; John 3:15, 5:24, 6:47.

So you've got a problem with Scripture.

Kevin Snow · Jul 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus taught directly that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. And since eternal life and salvation are synonymous, this isn't about appearances to humans. It's about Jesus saying those who believe ARE saved. Luke 8:12 - "lest they believe and be saved".

This is the point of this thread.

This is eternal security. Thank you.

Now you've thrown a wrench into the mix. Where does the Bible teach that believing for only a time results in not being saved in the first place?

Is that what Jesus said? No. He said they "fall away" from believing. One who "believes for a while" and then ceases has fallen away from believing.

The Bible is very clear about those who believe (regardless of timeframe) ARE saved.

But we know the principle. If one believes in Christ, they ARE saved.

So are you suggesting that the idea of loss of salvation is an appearance thing only?

That no one really loses salvation. But the appearance is lost?

Well, this isn't what the thread is about. I'm interested in those who actually believe that a saved person can lose their saved state.

Interestingly, I've not come across your viewpoint before.

But the Bible is clear that WHEN one believes, they possess eternal life; John 3:15, 5:24, 6:47.

So you've got a problem with Scripture.

You can believe in Christ falsely for the sake of appearances. Some would say that you never believed at all.

Dan the deacon · Jul 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus taught directly that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. And since eternal life and salvation are synonymous, this isn't about appearances to humans. It's about Jesus saying those who believe ARE saved. Luke 8:12 - "lest they believe and be saved".

This is the point of this thread.

This is eternal security. Thank you.

Now you've thrown a wrench into the mix. Where does the Bible teach that believing for only a time results in not being saved in the first place?

Is that what Jesus said? No. He said they "fall away" from believing. One who "believes for a while" and then ceases has fallen away from believing.

The Bible is very clear about those who believe (regardless of timeframe) ARE saved.

But we know the principle. If one believes in Christ, they ARE saved.

So are you suggesting that the idea of loss of salvation is an appearance thing only?

That no one really loses salvation. But the appearance is lost?

Well, this isn't what the thread is about. I'm interested in those who actually believe that a saved person can lose their saved state.

Interestingly, I've not come across your viewpoint before.

But the Bible is clear that WHEN one believes, they possess eternal life; John 3:15, 5:24, 6:47.

So you've got a problem with Scripture.

Dan the deacon · Jul 11, 2018

A person can leave the salvation they once had. The scripture is clear on this matter. On another thread someone said falling away is about those who were "Not saved" but faking. So what did they fall from?

FreeGrace2 · Jul 11, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
You can believe in Christ falsely for the sake of appearances.

This doesn't rise to the definition of "believe in Christ". It is only a statement, and a false one at that. Of course such would not save.

But I'm referring to those who HAVE believed and HAVE eternal life.

Some would say that you never believed at all.

If the Bible says that someone believed, it means they ARE saved.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 11, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
A person can leave the salvation they once had.

I understand your view. But I asked for Scriptural evidence for leaving salvation.

The scripture is clear on this matter.

This isn't evidence. It's just a claim. Please provide the Scripture that teaches that anyone can leave salvation.

On another thread someone said falling away is about those who were "Not saved" but faking. So what did they fall from?

Irrelevant question for this thread.

And please address the OP of this thread. Since God is omniscient, why would He give salvation to anyone who would later (for any reason) lose it?

Kevin Snow · Jul 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
This doesn't rise to the definition of "believe in Christ". It is only a statement, and a false one at that. Of course such would not save.

But I'm referring to those who HAVE believed and HAVE eternal life.

If the Bible says that someone believed, it means they ARE saved.

No it doesn't. It could easily be referring to the appearance of that belief because you can't tell the difference. Why does it say in James that even the demons believe and shudder? Obviously it is the kind of faith that is true which only brings the power to obey. So you are oversimplifying the word of God.

As it is, if someone says he has faith does that save him? Of course not, but it doesn't mean that you won't believe him when he says he has faith even though it is not true faith. He only believes that he believes, but he does not yet know that he believes.

Steve Petersen · Jul 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
"If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."

Since that is true, and He does know everything, I am asking those who believe that salvation can be lost to please explain why omniscient God would bother giving salvation to those who would later meet whatever criteria that results in loss of salvation.

I'm not interested in any debate. That's proven futile. But I am quite curious as to why God, who knows everything, would give salvation to anyone who would later lose it (by whatever means or criteria).

I'm also not interested in how salvation might be lost. Doesn't matter to this thread.

The only thing that does matter is WHY omniscient God would give salvation to anyone who would later end up losing it.

Thanks for any input that addresses this single issue.

Maybe all the premise are wrong.

Dan the deacon · Jul 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
This doesn't rise to the definition of "believe in Christ". It is only a statement, and a false one at that. Of course such would not save.

But I'm referring to those who HAVE believed and HAVE eternal life.

If the Bible says that someone believed, it means they ARE saved.

Amen

FreeGrace2 · Jul 11, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
No it doesn't. It could easily be referring to the appearance of that belief because you can't tell the difference.

On what basis, other than just one's opinion, do you make this claim.

What else would "believe" mean in the Bible, if not belief in Christ?

Why does it say in James that even the demons believe and shudder?

Easy. But let's look at the verse for full context.

James 2:19 - You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

The red words refer to the fact of monotheism, or that God is One.

The blue words indicate that the demons are quite aware of the fact that God is One.

The reason they believe in monotheism is because all angels were created and initially lived in heaven with God. So they know that God is One because they EXPERIENCED that fact.

What James didn't say was that demons "have faith in monotheism". They simply believe what they have seen.

The green word is the effect of knowing that God is One.

Obviously it is the kind of faith that is true which only brings the power to obey. So you are oversimplifying the word of God.

No, you are misunderstanding the Word of God, exemplified by the misuse of James 2:19. It is in NO WAY related to saving faith at all.

No one will ever be saved by believing that God is One.

btw, all the demons KNOW that Jesus is the Messiah. Why aren't they saved?

1. Jesus Christ didn't die for any angel.
2. no demon has ever put his faith in Christ for salvation.

As it is, if someone says he has faith does that save him?

I'm not talking about what one SAYS. I'm talking about what one BELIEVES.

And the Bible consistently SAYS that those who believe in Christ ARE SAVED.

Of course not, but it doesn't mean that you won't believe him when he says he has faith even though it is not true faith.

Do you know what "true faith" even is? Please proceed.

He only believes that he believes, but he does not yet know that he believes.

Please read your statement. Do you see how confused it is?

To claim that someone doesn't know that he believes is nonsense.

If a person doesn't know what they believe, they are simply quite confused.

If they don't know what they believe about any particular subject, then they DON'T believe IN that particular subject.

And, if someone does believe in a particular subject, then they DO KNOW that they believe in it.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 11, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
Maybe all the premise are wrong.

OK, what do you think the premise is?

bling · Jul 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
"If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."

Since that is true, and He does know everything, I am asking those who believe that salvation can be lost to please explain why omniscient God would bother giving salvation to those who would later meet whatever criteria that results in loss of salvation.

I'm not interested in any debate. That's proven futile. But I am quite curious as to why God, who knows everything, would give salvation to anyone who would later lose it (by whatever means or criteria).

I'm also not interested in how salvation might be lost. Doesn't matter to this thread.

The only thing that does matter is WHY omniscient God would give salvation to anyone who would later end up losing it.

Thanks for any input that addresses this single issue.

God makes promises and always keeps the promises He makes, but God cannot promise we will of our own free will maintain our Love for God and God is not going to force us to continue Loving Him.

Kiterius · Jul 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
"If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."

Since that is true, and He does know everything, I am asking those who believe that salvation can be lost to please explain why omniscient God would bother giving salvation to those who would later meet whatever criteria that results in loss of salvation.

I'm not interested in any debate. That's proven futile. But I am quite curious as to why God, who knows everything, would give salvation to anyone who would later lose it (by whatever means or criteria).

I'm also not interested in how salvation might be lost. Doesn't matter to this thread.

The only thing that does matter is WHY omniscient God would give salvation to anyone who would later end up losing it.

Thanks for any input that addresses this single issue.

Because FG2, he wants to have you serve him as a saved person for a time.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 11, 2018

bling said:
God makes promises and always keeps the promises He makes, but God cannot promise we will of our own free will maintain our Love for God and God is not going to force us to continue Loving Him.

And this is not related to our salvation. We are saved by faith in Christ, not by loving God. All who are trusting Christ for salvation should love God, of course.

I would never argue otherwise.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 11, 2018

Kiterius said:
Because FG2, he wants to have you serve him as a saved person for a time.

Actually, the doctrine of election is only and all about service.

There is nothing in Scripture about "serving Him for a time".

Nor is there anything about being "saved for a time" either.

Kiterius · Jul 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Actually, the doctrine of election is only and all about service.

There is nothing in Scripture about "serving Him for a time".

Nor is there anything about being "saved for a time" either.

Logically if the sovereign God saves you it's because he wants you to serve him as a saved person Decedent.

Steve Petersen · Jul 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, what do you think the premise is?

Given the suppositions of the OP, either God isn't omniscient and so doesn't know who will lose salvation

OR

Once salvation is gained, it can't be lost.

Now, if the Bible seems to contradict itself in this regard, that is another thread.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 11, 2018

Kiterius said:
Logically if the sovereign God saves you it's because he wants you to serve him as a saved person Decedent.

Of course He does. And not just "for a while".

But salvation is described as being eternal so we know that once saved, it's for eternity.

God's Omniscience and man's salvation

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