Trump on Russian gas imports to Germany

HereIStand · Jul 11, 2018

συνείδησις said:
I agree with Trump that there's a duplicity that needs to stop.

Sounds like you have the wrong thread.

συνείδησις · Jul 11, 2018

HereIStand said:
Trump has been criticized for the slightest possible business deal with Russia or his slowness in imposing sanctions on them. Meanwhile, Germany trades openly with the Russians on a grand scale.

Which they should because they're near neighbors. Enough of this cold war BS.

HereIStand · Jul 11, 2018

συνείδησις said:
Which they should because they're near neighbors. Enough of this cold war BS.

And fake Trump-Russia investigation(s) should end.

συνείδησις · Jul 11, 2018

HereIStand said:
Sounds like you have the wrong thread.

I think Trump is just playing his usual hardball to move Germany into the position of paying for their own defense. He knows they can't/won't do without Russian gas.

paul1149 · Jul 11, 2018

Nithavela said:
What has happened is that the US spends an insane amount of money on its military. You guys need to dial it down a lot, we need to dial it up a notch or two.

What has also happened was that the only time NATO actually went into action, it was in support of the USA; not in support of Europe.

Your current government is the one who pushed to sink the current UN resolution to support breast feeding because your government was lobbied by the baby formula industry. That wasn't even a week ago.

If that story is true - and this is the NYT - then I decry it as well. I hate bullying, but see the current trade/NATO issue as fair reciprocity, not bullying.

NATO is for everyone's mutual protection. The most immediate protection is for Europe, which is why our troops are stationed there.

As far as the US military budget, it would be nice to draw it down. But take a look at what China's been doing of late, including making the South China Sea an extended naval base. Or the nuclear ambitions of Kim Jong Un, who until only recently was flying missiles over Japan. And it was nice to finally be able to put ISIS in the hole where it belongs - another Trump accomplishment. The dangers in this world are real.

SoldierOfTheKing · Jul 11, 2018

Trump is prone to hyperbole. Probably he is merely pointing out Germany heavy dependence on Russian gas imports.

Nithavela said:
What has happened is that the US spends an insane amount of money on its military. You guys need to dial it down a lot, we need to dial it up a notch or two.

In contrast with say, Russian and Chinese military spending, which are for the defense of their respective countries, US military spending is for making defense contractors money. American weaponry is easily the most expensive in the world, which is not necessarily to say that it is the best.

Jack Slatts · Jul 12, 2018

mindlight said:
Trump thinks that Germany is "totally controlled by Russia" because of its high level of natural gas imports from Russia.

1) Is this true?
2) Why is he saying it ahead of a meeting with Putin and with NATO heads?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44780489

For 1) I don't think so.

For 2) IMO President Trump is begin aggressive with NATO allies in preparation for his acquiescence to Putin. He expects his base will see him as "tough", even though he will be kowtowing to a long time American enemy.

Nithavela · Jul 12, 2018

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Trump is prone to hyperbole. Probably he is merely pointing out Germany heavy dependence on Russian gas imports.

It's not that heavy.

Nithavela · Jul 12, 2018

συνείδησις said:
I think Trump is just playing his usual hardball to move Germany into the position of paying for their own defense. He knows they can't/won't do without Russian gas.

And I think that as usual, Trump will cave when the pushback to his hard ball is significant enough.

mindlight · Jul 12, 2018

Nithavela said:
It's not that heavy.

Gas makes up about 20% of energy needs in the country. So if the Russians take up the bulk of that it is still survivable if they switch the taps off in Summer. But in Winter when the solar is not high and demand is higher there is a strategic risk here. Particularly since Germany has closed down its nuclear industry.

Also there is a bit of moral dilemma here. Germany imposes sanctions on Russia for its annexation of the Crimea and many German businesses suffer from that. But it cannot shut down gas imports to make its point because it is dependent on them.

In many ways Germany provoked the debacle in the Ukraine that led to Crimeas annexation. But it is being inconsistent in its sanctions because of its dependency.

mindlight · Jul 12, 2018

paul1149 said:
If that story is true - and this is the NYT - then I decry it as well. I hate bullying, but see the current trade/NATO issue as fair reciprocity, not bullying.

NATO is for everyone's mutual protection. The most immediate protection is for Europe, which is why our troops are stationed there.

As far as the US military budget, it would be nice to draw it down. But take a look at what China's been doing of late, including making the South China Sea an extended naval base. Or the nuclear ambitions of Kim Jong Un, who until only recently was flying missiles over Japan. And it was nice to finally be able to put ISIS in the hole where it belongs - another Trump accomplishment. The dangers in this world are real.

America is a global player and is incurring costs in theatres where NATO is not really present e.g. Asia - Pacific.

Europe has no interest in being a military player in this region and except for the British and French is not equipped for it. If it came to an article 5 conflict America would mainly be fighting with its local allies there. So a European defence budget of about 2 % is commensurate with Europes actual defence needs facing Russia, policing the Med and North Atlantic and guarding against Islamic terrorism. But Americas budget needs to be slightly higher because its interests are global.

What makes no sense to me is Trumps determination to undermine good relations with Europe and Americas European alliance.

His pressure may backfire here on the continent. Russia has something we need at a price we can afford while America wants to double our costs to fight enemies we do not have being the reality here.

These are dangerous times and world stability is best ensured by maintaining a European - American alliance. Also Europe should be paying its way but 2 % is the meaningful target here.

mindlight · Jul 12, 2018

Jack Slatts said:
For 1) I don't think so.

For 2) IMO President Trump is begin aggressive with NATO allies in preparation for his acquiescence to Putin. He expects his base will see him as "tough", even though he will be kowtowing to a long time American enemy.

What do you think he needs to kowtow for? Help in resolving Middle Eastern issues, cooperation in Korea, a mid term election victory ;-)

mindlight · Jul 12, 2018

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Trump is prone to hyperbole. Probably he is merely pointing out Germany heavy dependence on Russian gas imports.

In contrast with say, Russian and Chinese military spending, which are for the defense of their respective countries, US military spending is for making defense contractors money. American weaponry is easily the most expensive in the world, which is not necessarily to say that it is the best.

But F-35s and super carriers are pretty cool.

mindlight · Jul 12, 2018

paul1149 said:
It is true that you will be much dependent on who you get your energy from. Japan's lack of energy is what prompted the attack on Pearl Harbor. To understand Trump's tactics here, you have to look at the full picture. He has chided the EU nations for taking a free ride in NATO, and for inequitable tariffs against the US. Rather than deal with those problems, Germany is turning toward Russia for solutions. As with Russia, Germany is resisting or rejecting the US sanctions on Iran. Other sources of gas are available, including a pipeline under construction coming up from the South.

Trump is trying to draw Germany back to closer relations with the US, but on on more equitable financial basis. The hammer he wields is potential tariffs on Germany's auto industry, which is its huge moneymaker. So far it doesn't seem to be working in Merkel's case, but the US has nothing to lose by imposing 20% tariffs on German cars. It will bring the US more jobs and a better balance sheet. But it will be devastating to the German economy.

The pipeline from the South bringing Sunni oil and satisfying the interests of his Saudi ally.

Putting tariffs on German cars won't destroy the German car industry which is global and competitive. But it may jeopardise American relationships with Europe.

I agree a more diverse energy supply is strategically better. But Russian gas is cheap and less costly to the environment.

συνείδησις · Jul 12, 2018

mindlight said:
I agree a more diverse energy supply is strategically better. But Russian gas is cheap and less costly to the environment.

Cheap gas could come from Iran.

mindlight · Jul 12, 2018

συνείδησις said:
Cheap gas could come from Iran.

That is a whole new can of worms in the background here. America has decided unilaterally to rewrite a treaty agreed with its allies and with Iran. I did not like the original treaty either but it seems to me that Trump is guilty of a blatant kowtowing to the Saudis here. But Iranian money is probably being used to develop a bomb and is definitely being used to fund wars in Yemen and Syria and terrorists like Hezbollah who hate Israel. Iranian actions in Syria supported the Assad regime which is the only actor there defending the Christian church. Iran wants to put its own gas/oil pipeline through a Shia Iraq and then sympathetic Syria to the Med and the European market. Clearly this would jeopardise Sunni oil monopolies. But are the Sunni Arabs any better than the Iranians when it comes to democracy, terrorism and funding wars!!? So there is a mess of positives and negatives here which do not look like unravelling anytime soon. I really do not know if Trump is right to try and change the game here and I suspect many of his motives. But the status quo is also rubbish so who knows!!!

Tiberius Lee · Jul 12, 2018

paul1149 said:
A "few" jobs? That's what you think it would amount to? Fine. Have it your way. Trump's message is that the US has been paying to protect the EU from Russia - which is what NATO is all about - and that the EU nations have been delinquent in paying their share for decades, and that Germany now is moving its finances and political alignment closer to Russia, the very nation the US is paying to protect them from. I don't see a flaw in his reasoning. If Russia is not a problem, then the US should stop spending to protect Europe. Another thing that may well happen is a drawdown of US troops stationed in EU.

Aha this is how Trump supporter change and manipulate facts. NATO was not created to protect EU from Russia, nor US is paying billions of dollars to protect EU from Russia. NATO was founded by US to protect Western Alliance from Russian and later also from Chinses aggression. US military presence in EU has nothing to do with protecting EU, but a strategic advantage US has over Russia or Chines aggression or to deployed US force to any parts of the world much faster then moving hardware or military personal from mainland US.

Jack Slatts · Jul 13, 2018

mindlight said:
What do you think he needs to kowtow for?

I have no idea why he does it. I can just see him kowtowing to Putin. Like when he refused to let any American media into the White House for a meeting with Putin, but did let in Russian media. And considering Putin is ex-KGB, the odds are probably pretty good that at least one of those Russian "media" was KGB.

a mid term election victory ;-)

Perhaps. It appears that much of President Trump's base is infatuated with Putin, so maybe kowtowing to Putin will make them happy? How do you feel about it?

mindlight · Jul 13, 2018

Jack Slatts said:
I have no idea why he does it. I can just see him kowtowing to Putin. Like when he refused to let any American media into the White House for a meeting with Putin, but did let in Russian media. And considering Putin is ex-KGB, the odds are probably pretty good that at least one of those Russian "media" was KGB.

Isn't this one of the features of the Trump presidency. The outsider in the Washington establishment who believes that a lot of the intelligence community may be out to get him while Americas Cold war enemies the Russians have been respectful and helpful by contrast. But to go beyond the immediate ego massaging to accusations of collusion regarding elections is more of a jump.

Perhaps. It appears that much of President Trump's base is infatuated with Putin, so maybe kowtowing to Putin will make them happy? How do you feel about it?

Putin is not a pawn of the gay lobby like Obama was and has promoted the church in Russia as a replacement for the Communist party in the new Russian military ecclesiastical complex. I think a lot of the religious Republican base can emphasise with that. Also Trumps boost to military spending and his appointment of conservative Supreme justices confirms him as their candidate in similar vein to Putin. Given the health of the American economy right now and this base military / religious support he may well do better in the mid terms and even in a re-election bid than many pundits suggest.

Currently he is a welcome guest in my country. Any American president should receive due respect in my view so I deplore the liberal left protestor language about Trump. Also Britain is keen for good relations with the USA following BREXIT. I like many Brits cannot agree with many of his policies e.g. on Climate control and immigration but he should understand the underlying warmth that a lot of Brits have for America and its presidency.

Tiberius Lee · Jul 13, 2018

mindlight said:
Isn't this one of the features of the Trump presidency. The outsider in the Washington establishment who believes that a lot of the intelligence community may be out to get him while Americas Cold war enemies the Russians have been respectful and helpful by contrast. But to go beyond the immediate ego massaging to accusations of collusion regarding elections is more of a jump.

Putin is not a pawn of the gay lobby like Obama was and has promoted the church in Russia as a replacement for the Communist party in the new Russian military ecclesiastical complex. I think a lot of the religious Republican base can emphasise with that. Also Trumps boost to military spending and his appointment of conservative Supreme justices confirms him as their candidate in similar vein to Putin. Given the health of the American economy right now and this base military / religious support he may well do better in the mid terms and even in a re-election bid than many pundits suggest.

Currently he is a welcome guest in my country. Any American president should receive due respect in my view so I deplore the liberal left protestor language about Trump. Also Britain is keen for good relations with the USA following BREXIT. I like many Brits cannot agree with many of his policies e.g. on Climate control and immigration but he should understand the underlying warmth that a lot of Brits have for America and its presidency.

If it is true what you said then this is really sad that Christian right have blind eye on all of Putin's behavior, as long as he replace communist party with church or President Trump’s own personal behavior as long as he appoint a conservative supreme court justice.

Christ had something to say about that.

Matthew 16:26 "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

Trump on Russian gas imports to Germany

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