Soul goes to heaven before Resurrection? Soul goes to heaven after resurrection?

parousia70 said:

I disagree.
I am of the view that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

A great many Christians get off on the wrong foot by PRESUPPOSING that the bible teaches Resurrection of the Dead would be something tied to the "end of the NEW covenant age." For certain, the bible explicitly teaches there is no end to the New Covenant Age (Eph 3:21; Heb 13:20), and Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15:55-56 shows how Resurrection of the Dead saints out of Hades is tied TO THE END OF THE OLD COVENANT AGE. Paul indicates this, saying:

1 Cor 15:54-56
"then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; Where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

This simple passage, which all agree is the victory slogan at the time of the Resurrection of the Dead, clearly teaches that the victory over death came at the close of the MOSAIC LAW AGE, not some close of the New Covenant Age (again, there is no end of the New Covenant Age). It was sin and the Law of Moses which empowered sin that kept the dead from being released from Hades and taken to Heaven.



If one should deny that 1 Cor 15:54-56 is fulfilled then they MUST agree with the Roman Catholics on the doctrine of Purgatory, for the Hades of 1 Cor 15:55-56 does not become part of Hell until Revelation 20:12-15! For futurists, this means Hades ("Sheol" in hebrew and "Purgatorio" in Latin) is still in existence exactly as the Catholic Church teaches.

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You can take any view you want, but no Israelite EVER was given a hope of going to Heaven, OT, NT, or wherever. If you can find any scripture that plainly says any Hebrew ever had a chance of going to Heaven, I'll fry up a crow and eat it. I see nothing in your post that proves anything you think it proves. Some Jews (the meek) will inherit the earth. Some will inherit the prize of the Kingdom calling, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven and attaches to the New Earth. These will be Abraham, Moses, many other IT saints, the 12, the Acts church, both Jews and those Gentiles that were part of Israel because they were grafted into Israel. The NJ is absolutely NOT Heaven. The ONLY people in the Bible that will go to Heaven are those Gentiles, plus a few converted Jews, that make up the Church today, which is found ONLY in Paul's 7 epistles written after the end of Acts.

None of the all-Israel church discussed in Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, and Thessalonians will go to Heaven. Their hope is the New Jerusalem, a hope that no one has today. That all-Israel Acts Church ceased to exist at the same time that Israel was set aside, as a nation, at the end of Acts. This occurred in Acts 28:25-27 , when Paul totally blinded Israel (not partially, like in Romans 11:25 ), by his pronouncement of the curse of Isaiah 6:9-10 , for the 7th and last time in the Bible.

Everything taught by Paul, our only apostle, in his 7 Acts epistles (Rom, Cor, Thess, Gal, and Heb) can be found in prophecy and the OT.
Acts 26:22
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

In Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles, nothing is found in the OT scriptures, except those verses concerning Jesus Christ. Everything else was in the form a Mystery, a secret hid in God from every age and generation. Not that this myster is NOT the same as the one in Romans 16:25-26 , because it was hid in the scriptures of the prophets, vs 25.
Col 1:26 - see also Ephesians 3:9
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

So, nothing in Paul's 7 Acts books can be found in any of the other 59 books, but everything in Paul's 7 Acts books an be found in the OT. This means that nothing in Paul's Acts books can be used to argue against anything found in his post-Acts books. By implication, since Israel is presently set aside and we are members on the new church found only in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles, this means that nothing in Paul's Acts books can tell us anything about our future. This information can only be found in Paul's post-Acts books, which are all about the only church in existence today.

In essence, your quotes from Corinthians, Thessalonians, Hebrews, etc., are meaningless for today's church, which is Christ's actual Body, where He is the actual Head. You can't blend what is 100% in prophecy and is old with that which is 0% in prophecy and is brand new. Won't work.
Col 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

The Acts body, in 1Cor 12, was all about the gifts - vs 1. Also, in vss 16-17, it speaks of members being part of the head, the eyes and ears. Therefore the body during Acts was certainly not the same as the Body in Eph, since Christ IS THE HEAD, including the eyes and ears, in the post-Acts church of today

You have to make a decision as to which one you'll believe is meant for YOU, because they are totally different. If you choose Paul's post-Acts epistles and leave his Acts epistles totally behind, you will go to heaven. If you blend the two together, you will probably go through the White Throne Judgement and end up on earth, assuming you pass the White Throne Judgement. Your choice. If you continue believing all that Jewish junk in Acts is for you today, I can't see God giving you the eyes to see the true hope of your calling in Paul's prayer of Ephesians 1:16-23 , especially Ephesians 1:17-18 . Remember the universal truth that Many are called, but Few are chosen!!!

As long as you avoid the only truth for today, found only in Paul's post-Acts epistles, and cling to the null and void Acts epistles, based entirely on the false teachings of the mainstream denominational church system, you are definitely missing the boat.

claninja said:

Prior to Jesus, no one had ever gone into heaven:
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

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Poor translation.

Better translation, No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. Big difference.

MartyF said:

Poor translation.

Better translation, No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. Big difference.

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I have 60+ versions on e-Sword and NONE say what you said - I just wasted 10 minutes looking at them. They all say the same thing - John 3:13 - that no one except Christ has EVER ascended to Heaven. You need to read Revelation 22:18-19 and 2 Peter 1:20 before you start writing your own scripture

ac28 said:

You can take any view you want, but no Israelite EVER was given a hope of going to Heaven, OT, NT, or wherever. If you can find any scripture that plainly says any Hebrew ever had a chance of going to Heaven, I'll fry up a crow and eat it.

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Hebrews 11:13-16
13 These all died in faith, were assured of them, embraced them confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

I see nothing in your post that proves anything you think it proves.

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Can you be more specific?... I gave plenty of scripture to support my contentions.
Please quote each of those scriptures and show us why they don't mean what I contend they do and instead show us what you believe they do mean. Otherwise, you're just blowing hot air.

The ONLY people in the Bible that will go to Heaven are those Gentiles, plus a few converted Jews, that make up the Church today,

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Here's the Rub...You and I likely have more Abrahamic DNA running through our veins than even the most orthodox Jew you can find in Israel today.

Todays Jews are ALL, 100%, either Gentile converts to the Post Christain, man-made religion of the Babylonian Talmud, (foreign and separate from the Religion of Moses that was delivered by God), or descendants of past Gentile Converts to that post Christian Babylonian, Talmudic, religion invented by men out of whole cloth, hundreds of years AFTER Christ.

There is not one single Jew today who has any verifiable genetic link to even one single pre desolation Hebrew Person.
Not even one.
If there were, you could name Him... but you can't, can you?

Plus, They do not follow the law of Moses which renders them as Heathen on Gods eyes, entirely cut off forever from Israel..(Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

The Biblical truth is, The Church is Israel, and it existed from the time of Moses in the Wilderness unto today. (Acts 7:38)
The "Church" is the Jewish remnant of historic Israel --the faithful of the Jews. Always has been, always will be.

There is no Covenanted Israel apart from the Church.

Jesus' faithful Jewish followers were the "Church," and they went out, later on, to incorporate other nations/peoples into the Covenant--the newly made covenant with Israel and Judah (Heb 8:6-13).

The Bride of Christ IS the New Covenant church of the heavenly city. It is the faithful Jewish remnant of all times and, since the time of Paul's ministry, includes faithful gentiles.

ALL OTHER PEOPLES ARE LOST AND HAVE NO INHERITANCE, either here on earth or in heaven.

You need a different tact friend. Your "two peoples, two covenants" views are pure fantasy, would be totally unrecognizable to the Jewish Apostles of the Jewish Messiah, and have no basis in the Word of God.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

No, not at all.
Others have , thankfully, shown your errors clearly.

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Really? Who? Where?

Unless you can give specific examples, you are simply yet another purveyor of Hot Air Bloviations in this thread... seems to be going around.

i.e. we already have the full and final Scriptural proof of your errors, without even going into the origin of those errors. (partly because not necessary yet, and mostly because Yahweh did not call for that yet; when it is time to disclose it, it will be).

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Poppycock.

I wonder sometimes whether Heaven even has a time like on Earth. It seems to me that outside of the timescale of creation that there is a completeness not understandable to human minds. Where all has been will be done and all what will be done is done.

If some people are right in how they translate Colossians 3:3 part of us will be already there. I just don't think we can understand it until we are there.

Your title is interesting as it speaks of our soul. I know our spirit goes to heaven after death as that is where Jesus is. Now our soul....I cannot say. Like God, we are also triune.

Sam91 said:

I wonder sometimes whether Heaven even has a time like on Earth. It seems to me that outside of the timescale of creation that there is a completeness not understandable to human minds. Where all has been will be done and all what will be done is done.

If some people are right in how they translate Colossians 3:3 part of us will be already there. I just don't think we can understand it until we are there.

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A thousand years is as a day

claninja said:

I created the poll and don’t believe in dualism or the Philosophy of an immortal soul. But my intent is not to debate whether we have an immortal soul trapped in our body ore not. My intent is to discuss why would believers ascend to heaven before the resurrection when Jesus did not ascend until after the resurrection. Adding a further discussion of an immortal soul Would only detract from the OP. It would be more appropriate to start Another thread if anyone wants to discuss whether we have an immortal soul or not

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It's a catch 22 poll. The fact is that, for a person that KNOWS the existence of a separate soul is a pagan doctrine and not based on anything in the Bible, it is impossible to select either answer without lying. Maybe you should have included a 3rd answer, "Man does not have a soul. Man IS a soul."

As I understand your post, you are right in saying that our resurrection will be like that of Christ, except for the time.

The truth is that no one except Christ has EVER gone to Heaven, according to scripture.

Dan the deacon said:

A thousand years is as a day

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Sometimes.

Dan the deacon said:

Your title is interesting as it speaks of our soul. I know our spirit goes to heaven after death as that is where Jesus is. Now our soul....I cannot say. Like God, we are also triune.

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Untrue. Man IS a soul. He does not have a soul.

parousia70 said:

Hebrews 11:13-16
13 These all died in faith, were assured of them, embraced them confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.



Can you be more specific?... I gave plenty of scripture to support my contentions.
Please quote each of those scriptures and show us why they don't mean what I contend they do and instead show us what you believe they do mean. Otherwise, you're just blowing hot air.



Here's the Rub...You and I likely have more Abrahamic DNA running through our veins than even the most orthodox Jew you can find in Israel today.

Todays Jews are ALL, 100%, either Gentile converts to the Post Christain, man-made religion of the Babylonian Talmud, (foreign and separate from the Religion of Moses that was delivered by God), or descendants of past Gentile Converts to that post Christian Babylonian, Talmudic, religion invented by men out of whole cloth, hundreds of years AFTER Christ.

There is not one single Jew today who has any verifiable genetic link to even one single pre desolation Hebrew Person.
Not even one.
If there were, you could name Him... but you can't, can you?

Plus, They do not follow the law of Moses which renders them as Heathen on Gods eyes, entirely cut off forever from Israel..(Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

The Biblical truth is, The Church is Israel, and it existed from the time of Moses in the Wilderness unto today. (Acts 7:38)
The "Church" is the Jewish remnant of historic Israel --the faithful of the Jews. Always has been, always will be.

There is no Covenanted Israel apart from the Church.

Jesus' faithful Jewish followers were the "Church," and they went out, later on, to incorporate other nations/peoples into the Covenant--the newly made covenant with Israel and Judah (Heb 8:6-13).

The Bride of Christ IS the New Covenant church of the heavenly city. It is the faithful Jewish remnant of all times and, since the time of Paul's ministry, includes faithful gentiles.

ALL OTHER PEOPLES ARE LOST AND HAVE NO INHERITANCE, either here on earth or in heaven.

You need a different tact friend. Your "two peoples, two covenants" views are pure fantasy, would be totally unrecognizable to the Jewish Apostles of the Jewish Messiah, and have no basis in the Word of God.

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It's difficult to be specific since nothing you have said rings of truth. All the scripture you've quoted is misused. I'll prove a few of your vast number of errors.

They're aren't 2 peoples today. Since the nation of Israel was set aside and ceased to exist in Acts 28:25-28 , everybody is on the same footing today. Today, both Jews and Gentiles must obey Paul's Gospel in 1Corinthians 15:1-4 in order to get saved. Everyone today is an individual.

There's not even 1 covenant today. Can you show me a smoking gun verse that proves that the Gentiles EVER were under either the old covenant or the new covenant? I didn't think so. Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:8 both say that the NC is for Israel. No mention of Gentiles, anywhere. The ONLY purpose of the NC is, through the Holy Spirit, put the law in every Jew's inward parts, so he will be able to keep the law and love doing it.

You have totally confused the New Jerusalem with actual Heaven. The NJ comes down out of Heaven and attaches to the New earth. The phrases, "heavenly city" and "heavenly country" both pertain to its nature, not its location. There is never any indication that it will ever move from there. It essentially is part of the New Earth. 180 degrees different than the Heaven found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. That is the real highest heaven, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God. It is called the heaven of heavens in many OT passages,, e.g., Deuteronomy 10:14 , 1 Kings 8:27 , 2 Chronicles 6:18 . It is called "heavenly places" In Ephesians, which means the supra-heavens. Anyone that can't see the difference, I have this bridge for sale.

The word, "Abraham" appears 29 times in Paul's Acts epistles amd appears "0" times in Paul's post-Acts epistles. Our ONLY father, today, is God. We go to Heaven, but Abraham does not. The church today has nothing, zilch, nada, zero, to do with Israel. A common phrase, "it is written", appears 31 times in Paul's Acts epistles. but "0" times After-Acts. The church today is 100% void of Israel

The Acts church, along with many OT saints and the 12, are the occupants of the New Jerusalem and they make up the Bride. The church today, which literally makes up Christ's Body, will obviously be part of the Bridegroom, along with Christ, who is the Head.
Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

I must stop.The other stuff you wrote is Waaay off the path of truth.

Nothing you said you believe is available to you. The ONLY stuff that you can claim is in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles.

Everything I said in my previous long post can be backed up with scripture. Did you read it?

The significance of the Second Curtain is that that the way to God's dwelling place is opened by Jesus Christ as a sign of reconciliation between God and men. However no one has reached God's dwelling place yet.

Revelation 15:8 (NIV2011)
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

ac28 said:

Untrue. Man IS a soul. He does not have a soul.

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Man is body, spirit and soul.

ac28 said:

I have 60+ versions on e-Sword and NONE say what you said - I just wasted 10 minutes looking at them. They all say the same thing - John 3:13 - that no one except Christ has EVER ascended to Heaven. You need to read Revelation 22:18-19 and 2 Peter 1:20 before you start writing your own scripture

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Try the New Living Translation.