Once saved, always saved?

zoidar · Jul 10, 2018

Jason0047 said:
In the world of art and general reality, people regard realistic drawings and paintings of people as representing what those people really looked like. If they start to distort the image of a person whereby it looks like they are in some kind of weird alternate dimension, then it is obviously not a realistic drawing or painting anymore. So the idea of perfection is a non-issue and it is an attempt to say that all art is subjective to the viewer (Which is a lie). While the taste of artwork is subjective to the viewer, the kind of artwork being presented is not subjective or open to a person's interpretation. Realistic artwork is a representation of the real world. Abstract art is not based upon the real world in every detail.

No. You don't know what Jesus really looked like. Even men who thought they seen Jesus in a vision or dream are seeing a false vision or lie. Why? Because it would break the commandment on idolatry. Also, it is pretty easy to figure out that Jesus was not a white guy. The Scriptures say Jesus was a Jew and Jews during that time were Middle Eastern looking in appearance.

"Even men who thought they seen Jesus in a vision or dream are seeing a false vision or lie. Why? Because it would break the commandment on idolatry."

Unless you have an unbiblical understanding of what idolatry is ...

I don't get at all your reasoning. If seeing Jesus in a vision would be idolatry, then it must have been idolatry for those who saw Jesus when he appeared among the 500 brothers and sisters after his resurrection.

Most paintings of Jesus does not look like comming from some alternate dimension.

Here is a realistic image of Stallone as Rambo. Is that image a lie?

Stallone as Rambo

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2018

zoidar said:
"Even men who thought they seen Jesus in a vision or dream are seeing a false vision or lie. Why? Because it would break the commandment on idolatry."

Unless you have an unbiblical understanding of what idolatry is ...

I don't get at all your reasoning. If seeing Jesus in a vision would be idolatry, then it must have been idolatry for those who saw Jesus when he appeared among the 500 brothers and sisters after his resurrection.

No. The twelve disciples (among others) knew what Jesus looked like, so it was not a false vision of Jesus that they had seen. If a black version of Jesus appeared to them, they would be like "Who are you?!"

We do not have the privilege of seeing what Christ looked like the 12 disciples did. Granted, there is a blessing in believing and or having faith without having seen the Lord; And that is the point I am getting at. Jesus considered it a blessing to believe and yet having not seen Him. In fact, the very essence of faith is defined as the substance things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

Note: When I say people today have false visions of Jesus, I am saying that they are seeing images from the devil. For the devil wants nothing more than for us to put our trust in visions instead of God's Word. Visions of Jesus (in our modern day era) are all false because they contradict Scripture in some way.

You said:
Most paintings of Jesus does not look like comming from some alternate dimension.

And that is my point. Most attempt to try to make Jesus into a real looking image. They are saying that this is Jesus. Yet, it is (a) A violation of Exodus 20:4-5 and (b) It is a lie because Jesus is not White, Black, Chinese, etc.

You said:
Here is a realistic image of Stallone as Rambo. Is that image a lie?

Stallone as Rambo

I would say that such a drawing is more abstract and it is not an actual realistic depiction of Rambo. It is a sketchy loose line drawing of Rambo. It is kind of like a kid's drawing. But if somebody did a line drawing of a muscular girl with horns and a gun and said that is Rambo, then that would be a lie. If somebody did a black version of Rambo as a line drawing, that would also be a lie. But line drawings like the one you showed is more in the abstract realm. The features are not exact but they give the impression that it could be Rambo. Again, it is more an abstract stylized drawing that captures a glimpse of the truth. Most representations of Jesus today (even the cartoon versions) all mirror their image off of the white version of Jesus (Which is a lie). Most drawings of Jesus (that are promoted by Christians) are not sloppy line drawings like the Rambo drawing you showed me. Most drawings are realistic. But you cannot honestly believe Jesus is a white Gentile or European looking person. It's absolutely silly to suggest otherwise. How on Earth did Jesus recognize the Canaanite woman (Who was a Gentile) if Jesus looked the same in skin tone color as her? Jews and Gentiles were different in skin tone color and in their facial features, etc. You are wanting me to believe that it is okay to promote an image that is clearly a lie. This is wrong.

zoidar · Jul 10, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Note: When I say people today have false visions of Jesus, I am saying that they are seeing images from the devil. For the devil wants nothing more than for us to put our trust in visions instead of God's Word. Visions of Jesus (in our modern day era) are all false because they contradict Scripture in some way.

The vision I had was made certain by the outcome of the Holy Spirit. That is how I know it was real. I talk from experience, you talk from reasoning. When Jesus talks to you, you know.

I don't think we will get much further discussing this. You know what I believe, and I know what you believe. What we can do is agree to disagree, and focus on what is truly important, leading people to Christ, the Saviour who shed his blood for every man. I think that is what I'm going to do.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2018

zoidar said:
The vision I had was made certain by the outcome of the Holy Spirit. That is how I know it was real. I talk from experience, you talk from reasoning. When Jesus talks to you, you know.

I don't think we will get much further discussing this. You know what I believe, and I know what you believe. What we can do is agree to disagree, and focus on what is truly important, leading people to Christ, the Saviour who shed his blood for every man.

While anything is possible with God, I believe it is highly unlikely that the Holy Spirit would show you a vision of what Jesus looked like today because it would go against the command on idolatry. Usually people who have visions of Jesus today can easily be dismissed by the fact that they contradict Scripture in several places. For one, people making images of Jesus from their visions is a direct violation of Exodus 20:4-5. So this right there is all the proof one needs. Two, usually there is more to their vision or story that shows that it is contradictory to what the Bible says. Three, Revelation is the last vision given to us by John. There are to be no more added words or holy books to be included for us today. Your vision could potentially be written as a book to be added to the Bible because of the major super natural level to it. But this cannot be so. For we are not to add to His holy Word (See Revelation 22:18).

zoidar · Jul 11, 2018

Jason0047 said:
While anything is possible with God, I believe it is highly unlikely that the Holy Spirit would show you a vision of what Jesus looked like today because it would go against the command on idolatry. Usually people who have visions of Jesus today can easily be dismissed by the fact that they contradict Scripture in several places. For one, people making images of Jesus from their visions is a direct violation of Exodus 20:4-5. So this right there is all the proof one needs. Two, usually there is more to their vision or story that shows that it is contradictory to what the Bible says. Three, Revelation is the last vision given to us by John. There are to be no more added words or holy books to be included for us today. Your vision could potentially be written as a book to be added to the Bible because of the major super natural level to it. But this cannot be so. For we are not to add to His holy Word (See Revelation 22:18).

God intervenes in many strange ways in people's lives today. Each story is great in it's own way, but has no place in the Bible. There are later writings like of the church fathers that are important, yet the Bible is inspired by God. My experience lasted for a few seconds. There is no new message to add to the Bible, and if there were, then surely it would have been the deceiver speaking.

Imagican · Jul 11, 2018

Amazing how the 'world' has been blinded to the 'truth' pertaining to 'art'. Even that part of the 'world' that professes to be 'Christian'.

One of the FIRST great commandments of God forbid 'art'. Not simply to stifle creativity, but to prevent 'man' from 'turning away' and worshiping THINGS rather than God Himself.

And then we are instructed that 'darkness' cannot even comprehend 'the Light'. For those able to comprehend the "Light", it almost appears as 'insanity' that others cannot even comprehend basic 'truth'. Truth is ONLY subjective to those that don't KNOW it.

No different with the 'idea' of OSAS. For those that read the Bible and allow the influence of the Holy Spirit to guide them, there is absolutely NO possibility of any such doctrine. Yet those that have 'bought in to it' are able to find their 'proof' in the same book.

But in truth, it is nothing other than a doctrine designed to allow those that follow it to BELIEVE that they can receive salvation and then continue to LIVE their lives like 'the rest of this world'. Unable to see that one must IGNORE all the warnings and instruction against such ideology contained throughout the Bible. Amazing how so many can do this very thing. Not only as it concerns OSAS, but just about any theology imaginable.

Blessings,

MEC

FenderTL5 · Jul 11, 2018

We were saved on a hillside 2000~ years ago.
We are being saved as we live out our faith with fear and trembling.
We trust that we will be saved in the final judgement.

Imagican · Jul 11, 2018

Ever notice how EASY it is for men who are inspired to create 'symbols' to represent their beliefs or where they place their 'devotion'? Do you suppose that this influence is 'of God' or 'of some other inspiration'?

You know, logos, brands, emblems, etc.......... It seems that one of first orders of business for 'any' institution involves the 'creation' of an 'emblem'. From nations to the AMA or the local 'bowling team'. Many even create their own 'emblems' for their names by the way in which they pen them.

It is not a 'fluke of nature' that this situation exists. It has come about by INFLUENCE. Something has LED us to an insatiable desire to 'brand' ourselves or to SEPARATE ourselves from ALL others. And isn't that what BRANDING DOES?

Farmers 'brand' their cattle to show a 'separation' of their possession from that of others. Over time 'brands' have been used to separate one group of people from another. Slaves, convicts, etc.....all pertaining to POSSESSION. A separation of one thing from another.

And isn't that the difference between God and Satan? God wants a 'body'. Unity. Satan wants to divide and conquer.

For 'the body' is not meant to be a unification of individuals or individual 'groups'. The 'body' is meant to be a 'whole'.

Ever notice how important it is to 'gangs' to put their 'mark' or 'symbol' EVERYWHERE?

Ultimately, aren't ALL symbols 'graven images'?

Blessings,

MEC

Bible Highlighter · Jul 11, 2018

zoidar said:
God intervenes in many strange ways in people's lives today. Each story is great in it's own way, but has no place in the Bible. There are later writings like of the church fathers that are important, yet the Bible is inspired by God. My experience lasted for a few seconds. There is no new message to add to the Bible, and if there were, then surely it would have been the deceiver speaking.

Dreams can sometimes just be images of a place or something happening. In other words, they can be pictures. They convey a message even without words. I believe not all dreams are from God, either. I am grateful to God that I did not have a dream or vision of Jesus or something. For me: Such imagery would not be true because we do not know what Jesus looked like.

My suggestion is to pray for 40 days on asking God to reveal to you things within His Word in regards to the truth, your vision, and idolatry. If you have nothing to worry about and you believe you are correct 100%, then doing such a prayer for 40 days will not change what you already believe. But if I am right (and I believe I am), and you are truly seeking to know the truth on this matter and you are willing to pray about this, I know God will reveal to you what I have come to know.

May God bless you, and may you please be well.

zoidar · Jul 11, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Dreams can sometimes just be images of a place or something happening. In other words, they can be pictures. They convey a message even without words. I believe not all dreams are from God, either. I am grateful to God that I did not have a dream or vision of Jesus or something. For me: Such imagery would not be true because we do not know what Jesus looked like.

My suggestion is to pray for 40 days on asking God to reveal to you things within His Word in regards to the truth, your vision, and idolatry. If you have nothing to worry about and you believe you are correct 100%, then doing such a prayer for 40 days will not change what you already believe. But if I am right (and I believe I am), and you are truly seeking to know the truth on this matter and you are willing to pray about this, I know God will reveal to you what I have come to know.

May God bless you, and may you please be well.

I will have to think about your suggestion. Would you be willing to do the same thing? It's not that I couldn't do it but there are a few more serious matters I need to fast for and pray for. The questions about visions and images are not really one of those things I have a burning desire in my heart to pray for, for two reasons. Firstly I feel I know what I need to know about it, and secondly I don't think they are very important questions.

Thank you Jason! May the Lord bless you, and keep you! May the Lord shine His light upon you!

Christ love,

P

Doulos 7 · Jul 11, 2018

woden said:
This idea is popular among some faiths, but is it really the case? For starters, to be saved involves what? To accept Jesus and all that entails. What he did for us (all of mankind) in coming to do his Father's will and to the point of sacrificing his life for us. Most Christians would accept this.

However, some schools of thought will suggest that once we have been `saved` we are always in this condition. Does this mean, then, that we can use our free will to do what we like, without consequences, and still retain the favour of God and His Son?

How would you answer and what are your thoughts?[/QUOT IF this teaching were true Paul's writings were to no avail (Galatians 5:4). And there is no need to study (2 Timothy 2:15)!

Bible Highlighter · Jul 11, 2018

zoidar said:
I will have to think about your suggestion. Would you be willing to do the same thing? It's not that I couldn't do it but there are a few more serious matters I need to fast for and pray for. The questions about visions and images are not really one of those things I have a burning desire in my heart to pray for, for two reasons. Firstly I feel know what I need to know about it, and secondly I don't think it's very important questions.

Thank you Jason! May the Lord bless you, and keep you! May the Lord shine His light upon you!

Christ love,

P

I will admit that movies about Jesus are a little bit of a grey area for me. While I would not use them as a means to evangelize someone (because I would fear they would fall into idolizing that version of Jesus), I am not 100% against their use because they have helped me to see the Scriptures in such a way that was very helpful (Especially the Gospel of John (2003) film starring Henry Ian Cusick).

Speaking of Christian movies: Here are list of my top favorites (if you have not seen them):

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-you-find-to-be-the-most-rewatchable.8055027/

Anyways, to answer your question: Yes, I would be willing to pray for 40 days about this matter on visions, idolatry, and regards to the truth (on this matter - on the use of pics of Jesus) as long as you did so. For I am also comfortable with what I know on this topic, but I would make the sacrifice for you. Let me know if you decide to take up my challenge.

Blessings to you in the Lord.

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Once saved, always saved?

zoidar

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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zoidar

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zoidar

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FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.

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Imagican

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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