Eve's Posterity

WebersHome · Jul 10, 2018

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● Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

It's pretty much agreed by most Christians that Eve's predicted offspring was realized in Christ.

● Gal 4:4 . .When the time had fully come, God sent His son, born of a woman. (cf. Heb 2:14)

● John 12:31-32 . . Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.

Who was the Serpent's offspring?

Well, as much as is known; spirit beings don't reproduce. So the Serpent's progeny probably shouldn't be thought of as literal. I suppose there are a number of ways to spiritualize this; but Judas Iscariot is certainly a likely candidate. (Luke 22:1-6, John 13:21-30, John 17:12)

NOTE: There's quite a bit of debate as to whether Jesus Christ was actually his mothers biological offspring; thus biologically related to Eve; which would make Jesus biologically related to Adam seeing as how Eve got her body from Adam's body.

● Acts 13:22-23 . . "I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will." Of this man's seed hath God, according to His promise, raised unto Israel a savior, Jesus.

● Rom 1:1-3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh

The koiné Greek word for "seed" in those two passages is sperma (sper' mah) which can refer to spiritual progeny as well as to biological progeny; for example:

● Gal 3:29 . . If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

That seed is obviously spiritual progeny. But the seed in Rom 1:1-3 is biological progeny because David's seed is "according to the flesh" in other words; his literal genetic material.

So then; unless somebody can prove-- clearly, conclusively, and without ambiguity; air tight and iron clad --that Jesus Christ wasn't biologically related to David; then it's a foregone conclusion that Adam was the first in Jesus Christ's biological genealogy.
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Doug Melven · Jul 10, 2018

WebersHome said:
Who was the Serpent's offspring?

See John 8:44
Jesus says the Pharisees are of there father the devil.

WebersHome said:
So then; unless somebody can prove-- clearly, conclusively, and without ambiguity; air tight and iron clad --that Jesus Christ wasn't biologically related to David; then it's a foregone conclusion that Adam was the first in Jesus Christ's biological genealogy.

He was Adam's step-som. See Luke's genealogy. Luke 3
The sin nature isn't passed on through the woman's seed, but through the man's. This is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin.

WebersHome · Jul 11, 2018

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Doug Melven said:
See Luke's genealogy.

Luke's genealogy goes thru David's son Nathan, which is not the son that inherited David's throne; that honor went to Solomon.

FYI: The purpose of Luke's genealogy is to show Jesus' biological line to David, while the purpose of Matthew's genealogy is to show Jesus' royal line to Solomon.
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WebersHome · Jul 11, 2018

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Duplicate post deleted by WebersHome.
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Doug Melven · Jul 11, 2018

WebersHome said:
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Luke's genealogy goes thru David's son Nathan, which is not the son that inherited David's throne; that honor went to Solomon.

FYI: The purpose of Luke's genealogy is to show Jesus' biological line to David, while the purpose of Matthew's genealogy is to show Jesus' royal line to Solomon.
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Luke's genealogy starts with Joseph, Mary's husband, and goes all the way back to Adam. Joseph was Jesus' stepfather.
Matthew's genealogy starts with Abraham and goes all the way to Joseph, the husband of Mary.
So Jesus Christ was of the seed of David according to the flesh. Romans 1:3 Matthew 1:1

Joseph was not Jesus' father, God was and is His Father.

WebersHome · Jul 11, 2018

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Doug Melven said:
Joseph was Jesus' stepfather.

In order for Mary's baby to have a legitimate place in Joseph's genealogy as per Matthew 1:1-17, he had to adopt the lad because step children do not have inheritance rights.
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sdowney717 · Jul 11, 2018

The Nephilim, when fallen angels came to earth and took human women, they birthed the Nephilim.
They are most definitely the seed of the serpent.
Nephilim were corrupting the earth, all flesh, had tremendous influence over the minds of evil men at the time of the flood. God destroyed all the corrupted men and animals and Nephilim.
Then later on the Nephilim appear again at the time of conquest of Canaan. Again God wiped them out, every single one to make room for Israel. His order to kill all of them can be understood that those nations were like those at the time of the flood of Noah, man, women, child, all were to be destroyed, they were all corrupted by the Nephilim.

Prior to Israel entering the land, God had set them to warring among themselves and killed off many of them.

Deuteronomy 3:11 “For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of the giants. Indeed his bedstead was an iron bedstead. (Is it not in Rabbah of the people of Ammon?) Nine cubits is its length and four cubits its width, according to the standard cubit.

When the Nephilim died, being part angel, and part man, they were left to roam the earth as demonic spiritual powers. They lost their bodies and seek to posses another, which sometimes they do get into people.
The angels that sinned taking human women, God imprisoned till the judgement of the coming Day of God, so they are not free to roam around.

Jude
6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these (angels), having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.

TrevorL · Jul 12, 2018

Greetings WebersHome and Doug Melven,

WebersHome said:
It's pretty much agreed by most Christians that Eve's predicted offspring was realized in Christ

Yes I agree that Genesis 3:15 is realised in Christ and this is also speaking of his crucifixion and as it was only a bruise it also speaks figuratively of his resurrection.

WebersHome said:
There's quite a bit of debate as to whether Jesus Christ was actually his mothers biological offspring; thus biologically related to Eve

Yes I believe that Mary was his biological mother and God the Father was his father in the conception / birth process.

Doug Melven said:
The sin nature isn't passed on through the woman's seed, but through the man's. This is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin.

I believe that Jesus partook of the fallen human nature, as he is a descendant of Adam and Eve through his Mary mother. Jesus came in the flesh to overcome sin firstly in himself and then all its effects, both in himself and mankind. I suggest your suggestion is only speculation and not based upon Scripture.

Kind regards
Trevor

WebersHome · Jul 12, 2018

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Doug Melven said:
The sin nature isn't passed on through the woman's seed, but through the man's. This is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin.

The illusory truth effect (also known as the validity effect, truth effect and/or the reiteration effect) is the tendency to believe information to be correct after repeated exposure. This phenomenon was first identified in a 1977 study at Villanova University and Temple University.

In a nutshell: if people hear a lie often enough by people they trust; in time their minds will be conditioned to believe it's true.

I have heard preachers, Sunday school teachers, and radio Bible teachers attest that Jesus Christ was conceived by a virgin because the so-called "fallen nature" is passed on by men rather than women; but other than double speak, rationalizing, academic logic, and clever sophistry to defend their claims, none as yet have produced solid textual proof from the Bible-- proof that clearly, conclusively, air tight and without ambiguity substantiates the position.
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WebersHome · Jul 12, 2018

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Text deleted by WebersHome
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Doug Melven · Jul 12, 2018

TrevorL said:
I believe that Jesus partook of the fallen human nature, as he is a descendant of Adam and Eve through his Mary mother. Jesus came in the flesh to overcome sin firstly in himself and then all its effects, both in himself and mankind. I suggest your suggestion is only speculation and not based upon Scripture.

Romans 5 is quite explicit on this matter. Not once does Paul say Eve caused the sin nature.
V 12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world and death by sin, so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned.
Also see verses 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19.
In fact nowhere in the Bible will you see Eve being blamed for our sin nature, only Adam.
And if Jesus partook of the sin nature through Eve as you say, why the necessity of the virgin birth. Why couldn't Jesus just be an actual son of Joseph?
Also explain the significance of circumcision in the OT?

WebersHome · Jul 12, 2018

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Doug Melven said:
why the necessity of the virgin birth.

It was apparently God's wishes that Jesus Christ be the Son of God and the Son of Man. Had both his parents been human, that would've ruled God out.

I'm guessing that had Jesus gone to the cross as only a man, his sacrifice wouldn't have worked. It had to be both God and man up there.

FYI: The title "Son of Man" was neither new nor unique in Jesus' day. God addressed the prophet Ezekiel as son of man on at least 93 occasions; and in every case, the Hebrew word for man is 'adam (aw-dawm') which is the proper name of the human race God that created in the very beginning.

● Gen 5:2 . . Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

In other words: Eve was just as much Adam as Adam because she was formed from a tissue sample amputated from Adam's body; so that Eve's posterity, whether virgin-born or naturally-born, is Adam's posterity.

Doug Melven said:
explain the significance of circumcision in the OT?

That subject is off-topic here. Please take it somewhere else.
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TrevorL · Jul 13, 2018

Greetings again WebersHome and Doug Melven,

WebersHome said:
According to Romans 8:3; God's son didn't come in the likeness of holy flesh, rather, he came in the likeness of sinful flesh; and that is very interesting because Paul said that in himself-- that is; in Paul's flesh --dwelt no good thing. (Rom 7:18)

There seems to be a fine but nevertheless an important distinction between saying Jesus was “in the likeness of sinful flesh” and saying that he was “in sinful flesh”:
Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The distinction is that Jesus came in the same flesh and blood as us, fallen human nature, and this flesh could be described in all of us as “sinful flesh” because in all of Adam’s posterity who have reached teenage and adult years, they have sinned. Another rendition of “sinful flesh” is “flesh of sin”, where “sin” could be considered part of a theme of personification of “Sin” as a master, or the figure of metonymy. The important point is that Jesus had the same fallen nature, but unlike all others he never allowed Sin to be his master, and never sinned. He kept under control the lusts of the flesh at all times in contrast to Paul, who in Romans 7 at various stages in his life, found that Sin, that is the lusts of the flesh, was his Master.

Jesus on the other hand was able to condemn Sin and the arena or judicial court in which Jesus condemned Sin was in his own flesh. He rendered the lusts of the flesh of no effect, being able to counter them by the Word of God, as per the example of his trials in the wilderness. His meditation and understanding of the Word of God strengthened to counter the lusts of the flesh in each instance.

I suggest that there is an important teaching in the verse that you quote:
Romans 5:12 (KJV): Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
There is an important sequence mentioned above. Adam sinned, he was sentenced to die, to return to dust Genesis 3:19, and as a result all his descendants came under the result of this, they were born mortal, subject to decay and death. Even a babe who has not sinned can die of disease or other tragedy. I understand the last phrase “for that all have sinned” is stating that the sentence of death is validated because all people when grown to maturity do sin and have sinned.

This then leaves the basis of what was accomplished in Jesus. He partook of the same nature, and was subject to death. But he never sinned, and as a result that he voluntarily submitted to the death of crucifixion and as a result the sentence on Adam in Eden was reversed. God’s righteousness required that Jesus should not descend to the dust and also because of the Father’s love for His Son and His fellowship, the grave could not hold Jesus.
Acts 2:22–28 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Kind regards
Trevor

WebersHome · Jul 13, 2018

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● Gen 4:1 . . Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying: I have gained a male child with the help of the Lord.

It's not unreasonable to believe that Eve assumed her first son was the seed predicted to crush the Serpent's head as per Gen 3:15; but alas, that was not to be.

● Gen 4:2a . . She then bore his brother Abel.

Cain and Abel are very interesting and share a lot in common. In fact, they share so much in common that their individual personalities must be an enigma to behavioral scientists.

Neither man came from a large gene pool because there were no grandparents. Their genealogy stopped abruptly right in their own home with mom and dad and went back no farther. They both had the same parents, lived in the same home in the same neighborhood, grew up with the same customs, ate the same food, associated with the same people, breathed the same air, survived in the same environment, went to the same church, and worshipped the same God.

Both men worked at honorable professions and their skills were essential to the Adams' survival. Man at this time was a vegetarian so Cain farmed and raised the family's food; while Abel kept them clothed and shod by tending flocks for leather; and possibly fleece too.

Yet those men were noticeably very different from each other. Abel was an inspired man (Luke 11:50-51) but Cain, though religious; was not. And he was violent too. (1John 3:11-12)

Both men were living souls as per Gen 2:7, and both men existed by means of the breath of life as per the same verse. But souls are not the result of cookie-cutter manufacturing processes. Souls are individuals with a mind of their own.

Individuality is one of the unsolved mysteries of life. How does the human brain's three-pound lump of flabby organic tissue produce self awareness and a sense of uniqueness? I don't know; it's very curious.
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sdowney717 · Jul 15, 2018

Cain did evil works before Cain murdered Abel.
Cain was of the devil, aligned with Satan.
So something happened to Cain before He hated his brother, something evil got into him.
He had relationship with the devil, likely communed with Satan instead of God. Satan did not cease deceiving men after they were kicked out from Eden.

1 John 3:11-12 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,
12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

WebersHome · Jul 28, 2018

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● Luke 1:32 . . the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

It's not difficult to prove that Mary's little boy was David's biological progeny.

● Acts 13:22-23 . . "I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will." Of this man's seed hath God, according to His promise, raised unto Israel a savior, Jesus.

● Rom 1:1-3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh

The koiné Greek word for "seed" in those two passages is sperma (sper' mah) which is a bit ambiguous because it can refer to spiritual progeny as well as to biological progeny; for example:

● Gal 3:29 . . If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed.

That seed is obviously spiritual progeny. But the seed in Acts 13:22-23 and Rom 1:1-3 is biological progeny because David's seed is "according to the flesh".

Now, a problem associated with David's throne is that it passes down thru his son Solomon (1Kgs 1:28-35). Well, Solomon is in Joseph's genealogy (Matt 1:6) and we know for sure that Joseph was not Jesus' biological father (Matt 1:18-25. Luke 1:26-35). So then, how did Jesus get a legitimate place in Solomon's genealogy if not by birth?

At Gen 48:5-7, Jacob adopted his own two biological grandsons Manasseh and Ephraim; thus installing them in positions equal in rank, honor, and power to his twelve original sons; thus legally increasing Jacob's total number of sons from twelve to fourteen.

Jacob's motive for adopting Joseph's two sons wasn't for himself; it was in sympathy for his beloved wife Rachel being cut off during her child-bearing years, which subsequently prevented her from having any more children of her own. Ephraim and Manasseh bring Rachel's legal total up to six: two of her own, two by the maid Bilhah, and two by Asenath.

Now, fast-forward to the New Testament where the angel of The Lord spoke to Joseph in a dream and instructed him to take part in naming Mary's virgin-born baby.

"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus" (Matt 1:21)

Joseph complied.

"And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matt 1:25)

So Christ went in the books as Joseph's son because that's how it worked in those days when a man stood with a woman to name her child (cf. Luke 1:59, Luke 2:21). And from that day on; Joseph was regarded by all, including Mary, as Jesus' father. (Matt 13:55, Luke 2:27, Luke 2:41, Luke 2:48)

Thus: Christ became Solomon's descendant by means of adoption, just as Ephraim and Manasseh became Rachel's descendants by means of adoption. This was the only legitimate way that Jesus could ascend Solomon's throne because stepchildren don't have inheritance rights.

NOTE: Just in case there's a man looking in on this considering adopting his wife's children from a previous marriage; you need to be aware that should the two of you later divorce; she can legally make you pay child support for another man's kids because when you adopt them, the law and the courts regard them as yours; so you'd better give that some serious thought before taking the plunge.
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WebersHome · Aug 6, 2018

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Q: Did Eve have the so-called fallen nature?

A: She sure did. The proof of it is Eve's move to cover her pelvic area the same as Adam did.

Q: From where did she get the fallen nature?

A: In the past, I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit had something to do with Eve's altered state of mind; but now I seriously doubt it because when Eve tasted the forbidden fruit, nothing happened. She remained shameless and went about in the buff as usual. It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit that something altered Eve's conscience; so I'm pretty sure that the underlying cause is far more serious than the chemistry of that fruit.

Q: Well, if it wasn't the fruit, then from where did she get it?

A: It's believed by a pretty large percentage of Christians that the fallen nature is inherited from one's parents. But Eve was already in existence before Adam tasted the fruit; so he could not, nor did he, pass it to her biologically by means of procreation..

Q: If not the fruit, and if not Adam, then from where?

A: We're left with two alternatives: either God did it to her or the Serpent did it.

My money is on the Serpent, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2)

He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and is able to tamper with the human body and the human mind, e.g. Luke 13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.

"Surely I was sinful at birth; sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Ps 51:5)

David's statement tells me that the Devil is able to tamper with zygotes in such a way that people come into existence with the sinful nature right from the gun. To my knowledge the Devil can't be everywhere at once, and seeing as how thousands of people are conceived every minute all over the world, then it's a pretty sure bet that he has at his disposal legions of invisible helpers to assist him in bringing sinful babies to life.

● Isa 61:1 . .The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound

Who are the captives? What prison? Who are the bound? The entire planet and everybody on it.

● 1John 5:19 . . We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

According to Eph 2:4, everybody, Christians included, have been victims of the power of death. The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield it the moment that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly that power worked on Adam and Eve. As soon as he tasted the fruit, they immediately set to work clothing their naked bodies.

NOTE: If what I've posted is true, then in order to prevent Jesus from being born with the fallen nature, it was only necessary to stop the Devil from getting to him in the womb.
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Ron Gurley · Aug 6, 2018

Joseph provided the legal line to Jesus the Christ.
Mary provided the blood line to Jesus the Christ.

Doug Melven · Aug 6, 2018

WebersHome said:
Q: If not the fruit, and if not Adam, then from where?

A: We're left with two alternatives: either God did it to her or the Serpent did it.

It was the fruit. God told Adam that the day he ate of that tree he would die.
When Adam and Eve ate of the tree they both died that day in accordance with God's promise.
We know they died because now they felt guilty.
And in Romans 5 Eve is never blamed for making us sinners, that was all Adam.
Even though Eve had a sin nature, it was not passed on to offspring from her.
Thus the necessity for the Virgin birth.
Also, only the man was to be circumcised, a shadow of the cutting away of the flesh/sinful nature which Christ fulfilled.
When we are in Christ, our old man is crucified.

Eve's Posterity

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