The FULL Story

Anto9us

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No, but the weirdest 'qualification' to me seems to be that of TRIBULATION - THAT THERE WILL BE TRIBULATION 'SUCH AS HAS NEVER BEEN BEFORE AND SHALL NEVER BE AGAIN'.

I don't see 70 AD as something harsher than a global flood, maybe not as harsh as the Holocaust, or WW2 itself...

Is there something STILL TO COME that would match the 'never before - never will be again' criteria?

A human Son of Perdition and Restrainer in 2 Thessalonians' time -- if such was the meaning -- are people unknown to history; the events of 70 AD, though horrible, can in no stretch of hyperbole be seen as "tribulation like never before and never will be again".

A Roman-Jewish war from 66-70 AD is a smaller event than many wars since; does not even come close to the 'tribulation' of the bubonic plague or Black Death.
 
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parousia70

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Mat 24:21

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Comparing scripture with scripture quickly demonstrates this usage of "ever was nor ever shall be":

Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hyperbolic Hebraic idiom that the prophets of God used quite frequently.

St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:
"These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people." (Luke 21:22-23)

Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matthew 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).

Even so, AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

That bears repeating.

Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

Next objection?

I've been trying to disprove full preterism from scripture for over 15 years now and have thus far been unable to. Scripture has an answer to every objection I have been able to come up with... and so far you haven't raised any new objections I haven't raised (and found biblical answers for) myself.

So, what else ya got?
 
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Anto9us

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Maybe I don't have anything else -- if HYPERBOLE can be employed to the extent that it is among the Full Preterists -- I have no problem with Hyperbole being a figure of speech that the Bible sometimes uses, but Full Prets seem to reach for that tool at the drop of a hat, much too often.

2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:11
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2Pe 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2Pe 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Maybe you wanna go into the FULL PRET SPLAINAWAY of the great noise and the elements melting with fervent heat - I bet it may involve our old friend Hyperbole again.
 
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parousia70

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Maybe I don't have anything else -- if HYPERBOLE can be employed to the extent that it is among the Full Preterists -- I have no problem with Hyperbole being a figure of speech that the Bible sometimes uses, but Full Prets seem to reach for that tool at the drop of a hat, much too often.

Whenever I employ ANY interpretive tool it is because I have scriptural precedent to do so and I can, have and will cite such precedent in detail...You can accuse me of a lot, but claiming I employ any interpretive tool willy nilly, or at my own personal whim, is disingenuous at best, and outright slanderous at worst.

So far you have provided nothing of substance to rebut any of my answers to your objections, so I must assume all my answers thus far have overcome those objections of yours satisfactorily.

I simply look to scripture to interpret those words and phrases for me.

Scriptural Words and phrases NEVER have meaning in scripture outside the meaning scripture assigns them.

"Elements" (Grk Stoicheion) is used 7 times in the New Testament and is always used to signify the basic, rudimentary, "Elementary" principles of the Mosaic Law.

It is never used in scripture to mean the periodic table.
See for yourself:

Galatians 4:3
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world.

Galatians 4:9
But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Colossians 2:20
Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

Hebrews 5:12
[ Spiritual Immaturity ] For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

Its the Above 5 verses that describe the "Stoicheion" that were about melt away here:

2 Peter 3:10
[ The Day of the Lord ] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

2 Peter 3:12
looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?


Those elements of Mosaic Judaism did indeed LITERALLY burn and melt with fervent heat in 70AD, and it was the "Heavens and Earth" that God founded In Isaiah 51:16, AFTER He delivered the Hebrew people out of Egyptian Bondage and formed them into a new COVENANT nation in the Wilderness, that did indeed LITERALLY pass away with a great Noise at that time as well.
No Hyperbole at all.

Next?
 
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parousia70

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- I have no problem with Hyperbole being a figure of speech that the Bible sometimes uses

So you now agree that "ever was nor ever shall be" is hyperbole based on the scriptural evidence I have supplied.
Excellent.

2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Notice How the Glorified Jesus, From heaven, PROMISES the first century Peoples at Sardis that this "Thief in the night" coming would befall THEM in their day:

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Maybe you want to go into futurist SPLAINAWAY and claim the YOU in this passage is NOT the first century people of Sardis that this letter is directly addressed and was first delivered to?

Were they supposed to think it was NOT for them?
Was Jesus merely dispensing empty threats to them?

I maintain Jesus can be trusted to keep His promises, and His thiefs coming (which scripture teaches is a ONE TIME ONLY EVENT) befell them in their day, exactly as He promised them it would.
 
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