Blood sacrifice...

Dorothy Mae · Jul 10, 2018

mkgal1 said:
That's awfully presumptuous of you, don't you think?

It's not that he's elevating his mind over God's.....he's merely disagreeing with your understanding. At-one-ment theories are just that. Theories. No one KNOWS truly the mind of God.

The man whom God reveals his mind to knows.

And uh, that God demanded animal sacrifice is not merely my personal understanding. The whole bible is full of it from Genesis to the lamb (an animal word) of God. There is no personal option/understanding option.

The Bible cannot be made to say whatever one wants for the honest man.

bling · Jul 10, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
“Empathy” is too light a word for the experience. It’s like saying childbirth is bothersome. Some words are too slight when it comes to expressing the real emotions felt. There was so much more than mere empathy at the time.

If you witnessed your child going through a long prolonged torture and murder how would you describe your feelings for your child?

mkgal1 · Jul 10, 2018

Quoting Brian Zahnd:

The crucifixion of Jesus is easily the most depicted event in human history. How many billions of crucifixes have been formed, fashioned, carved, and painted over the past two millennia? And yet what is it that is being depicted in these billions of crucifixes? On a purely objective level, it is the torture and murder of an innocent man at the hands of those who run the world by the means of violent power. The crucifixion is the damning indictment of the world as it has been arranged. What the cross tells us is that when the Son of God entered our world — the world created by Cain and all the kings who followed in his bloody wake — our systems of violent empire and sacrificial religion nailed him to a tree. This is the moment when the principalities and powers who run the world were put to open shame, and their claim of being wise and just was shown to be nothing but an empty sham. What they called wisdom and justice was nothing more than a cheap disguise to hide their naked lust for wealth and power. Paul says the rulers and authorities were shamed by the triumphant truth-telling of the cross.

Every crucifix reminds us that our systems of civilization built around an axis of power enforced by violence are not to be trusted. The myths, monuments, anthems, and memorials of every empire are designed to cleverly hide the bodies of the weak who have been trodden down by the mighty in their march to “greatness.” The cross is the unveiling. The cross is the great truth-telling. The cross is the guilty verdict handed down upon empire. The cross is the eternal monument to the Unknown Victim. Yes, the cross is where the world is forgiven, but not before the world is found guilty.

But trite and tidy answers about the meaning of Good Friday are how we domesticate the cross. This is the bane of atonement theories. Instead of the crucifixion remaining the pivotal event in a compelling story, it’s turned into a sterile formula. The cross is diminished to one of the Four Spiritual Laws or a waypoint on the Roman Road. This is how the cross is sanitized and made mechanical. The storyline is lost and the scandal is swept aside. ~ https://brianzahnd.com/2018/05/sign-saves-world/#more-6399

mkgal1 · Jul 10, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
The man whom God reveals his mind to knows.

That's a bit of an impasse, then, because there are others that disagree with your interpretation that attribute their understanding to God's revelation as well.

mkgal1 · Jul 10, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
And uh, that God demanded animal sacrifice is not merely my personal understanding. The whole bible is full of it from Genesis to the lamb (an animal word) of God. There is no personal option/understanding option.

But you still have to interpret what that means....and there are many theories (that are accepted in Christianity)....but no one can get dogmatic about it (because we simply cannot KNOW):

Here are a few of those theories (but I'm sure there're more):

Theories of atonement

mkgal1 · Jul 10, 2018

The Bible says that Jesus is the "radiance of God's glory, the exact representation of His being" (Hebrews 1:3)....so if we truly want to know the mind of God, it seems that we have to look to Jesus (and the cross).

Embracement Theory
This approach, while acknowledging the other theories, also sees the Divine voluntary self-giving as the ultimate embracement of humanity in its ultimate act of sin, viz, deicide, or the murder of God, thus canceling sin on the cross.

The depth of estrangement and contortion was manifest in the kind of death administered: the death of the cross. Yet, the real story is not that the world rejected Him; the real story is that He was willing to let the world reject Him. Divine self-emptying, divine servanthood, and divine crucifixion are powerful themes that shock the philosophy of religion. Nietzsche called the greatest of all sins to be the murder of God (deicide). There was nothing more sinful than that. On the reverse, the greatest of all righteousness fulfilled was in the self-giving of the Son of God. This self-giving brought an end to the history of hostility between man and God. It cancelled all debts. Man had committed the greatest of all crimes, and God had allowed it to be done to Him in the ultimate divine sacrifice. The Cross was where Justice and Love met vis-à-vis. It was where man affirmed his estrangement and God affirmed His belongedness. It was where God accepted man as he was. The one act of righteousness by the Son of God nullified forever the writ of accusation against all humanity.[24]~Wiki

bling · Jul 10, 2018

Chinchilla said:
I don't think that other verses containing this word would make sense if you replaced the word for pleasure for will .

There are no English words that have the exact mean for most Greek words, so you have many or a few alternatives English words for one Greek word groups of Biblical scholars do their best put sometimes do not agree.

RSV translation of Is. 53: 10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to bruise him… works, but other words might fit better in other places.

Chinchilla said:
I think that Jesus was made sin and God took pleasure from getting rid of the sin .
2 Corinthians 5:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Wow here we go again.

Do you feel Christ became a sinner or what does that mean to you?

First off 2 Cor. 5:21 in the NIV and has as a footnote: b.2 Corinthians 5:21 Or be a sin offering since

The word translated “sin” just has to do with sin and does not mean just “sin” but you have to come up with something to explain it, so the NIV translators just give you another possibility.

What do you think: “to be sin on our behalf” means, since other places we know Christ is our sin offering and would fit the explanation in the Greek? Isaiah 53:10 supports the definition of it being a “guilt offering” and not making him “sin” meaning something else?

Chinchilla said:
God also said that he put him to grief .

Did God grief also?

mkgal1 · Jul 10, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
And uh, that God demanded animal sacrifice

So why not now? Why is this practice seen as so detestable these days (in most countries)? I'm fairly certain other religions haven't discontinued animal sacrifices because of Jesus being the "last sacrifice".

Dorothy Mae · Jul 10, 2018

bling said:
If you witnessed your child going through a long prolonged torture and murder how would you describe your feelings for your child?

Empathy does not come to
mind.

Dorothy Mae · Jul 10, 2018

mkgal1 said:
That's a bit of an impasse, then, because there are others that disagree with your interpretation that attribute their understanding to God's revelation as well.

You didn’t read my post. That God demanded animal sacrifice is NOT my personal interpretation. I understand why. The only impasse is when some refuse the obvious. God demanded animal sacrifice is no one’s personal interpretation. That those who refuse to admit this don’t understand why is obvious. They refuse the obvious. The more sophisticated info is beyond such.

Dorothy Mae · Jul 10, 2018

mkgal1 said:
So why not now? Why is this practice seen as so detestable these days (in most countries)? I'm fairly certain other religions haven't discontinued animal sacrifices because of Jesus being the "last sacrifice".

Other faiths don’t serve the Living God.

Inkfingers · Jul 10, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
So regardless of how God’s sees it, and i’m not saying He agrees with that, you prefer your understanding of justice over His. It’s clear to me that you elevate your mind over His. I know this because there is no evidence of coming to Him
in humility. Instead you outright reject what doesn’t match your concept of justice.

A concept of injustice informed by God who has his prophets rail against injustice.

Tell me, how do you know whether you have the right interpretation without using your own reason?

mkgal1 · Jul 10, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
You didn’t read my post. That God demanded animal sacrifice is NOT my personal interpretation. I understand why. The only impasse is when some refuse the obvious. God demanded animal sacrifice is no one’s personal interpretation. That those who refuse to admit this don’t understand why is obvious. They refuse the obvious. The more sophisticated info is beyond such.

Maybe you're misunderstanding my post as well....because I'm referring to "the why" of the cross that is our interpretation (based on several different, but accepted, Christian theories).

Making claims of having the superior belief doesn't really do anything to advance your argument (and labeling and self-identifying with adjectives like "sophisticated" doesn't really make it a reality).

Dorothy Mae said:
Other faiths don’t serve the Living God.

You're missing my point.

In the OT days, it was common practice for just about ALL religions to make sacrifices of all kinds to their gods (even human sacrifices were common!).

For example:

Moloch was one of the false gods that Israel would worship during its periods of apostasy. This false deity is associated with Ammon in 1 Kings 11:7, "Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon."

One of the practices of the cult that worshipped Moloch was to sacrifice their children. Of course, this was forbidden by God's word: Lev. 18:21 says, "Neither shall you give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God; I am the Lord." (See also Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5; 2 Kings. 23:10; Jer. 32:35).

They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it ever enter My mind.~ Jeremiah 19:5

In some passages the reference is clearly to a deity to whom human sacrifice was made, particularly in the Valley of Hinnom on the SW of the Jerusalem hill (2 Ki. 23:10; Je. 32:35) at a site known as Topheth (‘fire pit’ in Syriac).1 ~https://carm.org/moloch-ancient-pagan-god-child-sacrifice

My question is.....why did all that (just about....anyway) stop.....globally in modern times? We know that, as Christians, there are no more sacrifices because Jesus was the last sacrifice. But what about all those other religions? Why did THEY stop? Do you have any guesses?

mkgal1 · Jul 10, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
You must believe God is good if you want understanding from Him

That's what led most of us to NOT believe in PSA theory (firmly believing in God's goodness). We believe in a loving and just God (where "justice" isn't revenge....but restoration).

Dorothy Mae · Jul 10, 2018

mkgal1 said:
But you still have to interpret what that means....

No I don’t. The OP implies God never demanded such. He did as the Bible says repeatedly. That’s the point. He did and we cannot deny it.

and there are many theories (that are accepted in Christianity)....but no one can get dogmatic about it (because we simply cannot KNOW):

Theories abound? Yes. Animal sacrifice demanded? Clearly.

Here are a few of those theories (but I'm sure there're more):

Theories of atonement

1.1Moral influence theory

1.2Ransom theory

1.3Satisfaction theory

1.4Penal substitution theory

1.5Governmental theory

1.6Recapitulation theory

1.7Scapegoating

1.8Embracement Theory

As i said, theories abound. Doesn’t change the fact it was so. There’s a difference between “why” and “did it happen at all?”

JojoM · Jul 10, 2018

bling said:
fine, but being challenged can help you grow.

I believe growing happens in a fellowship of believers (church). I don’t know which ones yet though are the believers here because I haven’t seen very many testimonies even in the testimony forum. I’d love to hear your testimony of salvation if you have one and don’t mind? I’ll reply with mine.

Dorothy Mae · Jul 10, 2018

mkgal1 said:
That's what led most of us to NOT believe in PSA theory (firmly believing in God's goodness). We believe in a loving and just God (where "justice" isn't revenge....but restoration).

One can make up what God is like but He hides the truth from these. Those who go to Him not assuming they know are more likely to get truth.

mkgal1 · Jul 10, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
One can make up what God is like but He hides the truth from these. Those who go to Him not assuming they know are more likely to get truth.

Maybe "He hides the truth about pride" to those that are proud, then (using your logic). What you're selling here ("He hides the truth") is an unjust god. God reveals to all who seek sincerely (James 1:5).

I was raised Christian from birth....and was always taught that He is love....He is good....He is omnipotent (which is what had been revealed to the church, in the beginning. It's not exactly "made up"). And, if I'm understanding you, you're saying that having those beliefs is going to cause Him to "hide the truth"? But then....earlier you'd posted this:

Dorothy Mae said:
You must believe God is good if you want understanding from Him

You're welcome to believe whatever you wish. If you can square "goodness" and the PSA theory....you have a completely different view of what most consider "good".

1213 · Jul 10, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Why did God reject Cain's sacrifice from plants and accepted the meat sacrifice from Abel ?

I have understood the difference was in, Abel wanted to sacrifice something valuable. By that way he showed that he appreciated God and that was what was pleasing. The sacrifice itself is not so important, but the idea behind it.

1213 · Jul 10, 2018

miamited said:
Hi 1213,

You've really got to be kidding, right?

I understand it sound odd, when it is the common important teaching of churches. However, there seems to be really no Biblical support for that God is the one who needs or wants sacrifices or blood. But perhaps I am wrong, if so, please show a scripture that tell that it is God who wants those things.

Blood sacrifice...

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